Romans 6, Freed from sin?

[Foghorn]

Romans 6:6-7 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

Whats everyone's thoughts on verse 6-7?

It seems to be teaching that our old self was crucified with Christ and the body of sin is dead (done away with), and we are no longer slaves to sin.

1) If this is the case, considering believers, where does sin come from if the body of sin is dead?

2) What does Paul mean we are freed from sin because the old self has died to it?

What does Paul mean when he says we were slaves to sin, but believers (in Christ) are no longer slaves to sin, but have been set free?

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Our first nature is earthly, and fleshy minded, desiring the lusts of the flesh, which also causes us to sin.

That is why we must be born again of God's Spirit, and put to death that old man who once lived to the satisfying of the flesh, and also put to death the deeds of the flesh, and of sin.

That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of Spirit is spirit.

The firstborn man is of the flesh, he is the man that must be put to death, just as he is also the one who is baptised into Jesus death.

Much like Jesus who was put to death in the flesh, and raised up by the Spirit, we also are raised up a new man in Christ by way of the Holy Spirit.

Our new man no longer walks according to the ways of the world, and to the satisfying of the flesh, but now walks according to the Spirit of Truth and of righteousness which is only made possible by the Spirit of Christ who now dwells in us.

 

[Foghorn]

Our first nature is earthly, and fleshy minded, desiring the lusts of the flesh, which also causes us to sin.

If this old self (first nature) is crucified and dead, why do we still sin? Where does it come from if not from the old self which is dead, which we are freed from? Consider verse 18: and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

That is why we must be born again of God's Spirit, and put to death that old man who once lived to the satisfying of the flesh, and also put to death the deeds of the flesh, and of sin.

That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of Spirit is spirit.

I agree.

The firstborn man is of the flesh, he is the man that must be put to death, just as he is also the one who is baptised into Jesus death.

According to Paul he is put to death:6a knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with,

Much like Jesus who was put to death in the flesh, and raised up by the Spirit, we also are raised up a new man in Christ by way of the Holy Spirit.

Our new man no longer walks according to the ways of the world, and to the satisfying of the flesh, but now walks according to the Spirit of Truth and of righteousness which is only made possible by the Spirit of Christ who now dwells in us.

But we still sin, why? Could you explain your answer here a little more?

I'm actually in a study of the book of Romans, I find chapter 5-6 very interesting and very deep. I am interested in others thoughts on it. Thanks for your reply.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

If you are born again of God's Spirit you will not live in sin, but that does not mean you will not be tempted with sin; or even commit a sin thru ignorance. The sin of ignorance is forgiven as per the law, but if one receives the gift of Grace through Jesus Christ and willfully sins, then there remains no more an offering for his sins, for he cannot crucify unto himself the Lord a new.

But even though a man is born again of the Holy Spirit of God it does not mean that he will not be tempted by the lusts of the flesh. This is the inward struggle Paul spoke between the mind of the flesh,and the mind of the Spirit.

Romans 7:14-25

King James Version (KJV)

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

As one matures in Christ he is better able to resist the devil, and also resist the lustful thoughts of the flesh. This inward struggle becomes less and less as one comes closer to the full measure of the man in Christ. Just as we are called to be like Him, who also is perfect.

 

[St_Worm2]

The sin of ignorance is forgiven as per the law ...

Hi ISIT, where does the Bible tell us this (that Christians will be forgiven of sins committed in ignorance under the Law)? You continue:

...but if one receives the gift of Grace through Jesus Christ and willfully sins, then there remains no more an offering for his sins, for he cannot crucify unto himself the Lord a new.

If you wouldn't mind, please go into a little more detail about what you mean and who it is who can no longer be forgiven and why. You continue:

But even though a man is born again of the Holy Spirit of God it does not mean that he will not be tempted by the lusts of the flesh. This is the inward struggle Paul spoke between the mind of the flesh,and the mind of the Spirit.

Romans 7:14-25

King James Version (KJV)

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

It seems that St. Paul is talking about "sinning" here, not just "temptation" to sin(see v19 in red above). If this is true, and the Apostle knowingly caved into temptation and sinned after he had been saved, would that one sin disqualify him from ever entering Heaven?

Thanks!

--David

 

[hedrick]

The problem is that we're not completely new yet. Yes, the new life is there. Hopefully it's even our primary orientation. To the extent that we're reborn, we're free from sin. But remnants remain, and will for our whole lives, though hopefully less and less. Paul talks about this later, in 6:14 ff. He refers to the remnants of the old life as "flesh", though we have to be careful not to take that in a Gnostic sense as if mind and spirit was good and the body evil.

 

[Foghorn]

If you wouldn't mind, please go into a little more detail about what you mean and who it is who can no longer be forgiven and why. You continue:

Yes, I'm also curious.

 

[Foghorn]

The problem is that we're not completely new yet. Yes, the new life is there. Hopefully it's even our primary orientation. To the extent that we're reborn, we're free from sin. But remnants remain, and will for our whole lives, though hopefully less and less. Paul talks about this later, in 6:14 ff. He refers to the remnants of the old life as "flesh", though we have to be careful not to take that in a Gnostic sense as if mind and spirit was good and the body evil.

Thanks hedrick.

Romans is a great study, I really enjoy it and appreciate your reply here.


I'm curious of your understanding of these two verses. Especially the bold parts, how would you explain what being a slave to sin, then, righteousness means, and what its effects are in either case?
6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;

18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

 

[Foghorn]

Romans 6:14 is an important verse. What's everyone thought on this verse?

Thanks.



14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

If you wouldn't mind, please go into a little more detail about what you mean and who it is who can no longer be forgiven and why.
-David

Hebrews 10:26-29

King James Version (KJV)

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

I believe the scriptures are pretty clear on this matter.

 

[Foghorn]

Romans 6:14 is an important verse. What's everyone thought on this verse?

Thanks.



14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Here is my understanding of it.

By sin not being master over us (believers are not slaves of sin) means, (I believe) sin cannot fight on freely, we have a choice not to sin now, as before we had no choice but to sin. Being under grace the victory over sin is assured, because in the gospel we do not have a bare command, which binds us without helping, as in the Law. But together with the command there is an internal power and strength granted, which fulfills that in us which is commanded, if on our own part we cooperate with our will, as I believe Phil 2:13-14 relates......... So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
After all He does equip us to do His will,... equip you in every good thing to do His will, working in us that which is pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen. Heb 13:21.

Paul does not say we will not sin no more, I believe he means, that struggle between the old and new man, the old man will not have the upper hand, he only has the power we choose to give him. The old man will always be overpowerd by the new man, and this is that which is required of us, Rom 6:12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Hi ISIT, where does the Bible tell us this (that Christians will be forgiven of sins committed in ignorance under the Law)?
--David

Numbers 15:29
Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 6:6-7 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

Whats everyone's thoughts on verse 6-7?

It seems to be teaching that our old self was crucified with Christ and the body of sin is dead (done away with), and we are no longer slaves to sin.

1) If this is the case, considering believers, where does sin come from if the body of sin is dead?

2) What does Paul mean we are freed from sin because the old self has died to it?

What does Paul mean when he says we were slaves to sin, but believers (in Christ) are no longer slaves to sin, but have been set free?

Paul says in Romans 6 if you claim you must sin - then you are claiming sin as your master -- and claiming you as the servant of sin.

In Romans 8 Paul says that the wicked heart does NOT submit itself to the Law of God - neither indeed CAN it.

In 1Cor 10 Paul says "NO temptation has overtaken you but such is COMMON to man and God is FAITHFUL who will not ALLOW you to be tempted beyond that which YOU are able - but will with the temptation provide a way of escape so that you may be able to endure".

1John 2:1 "These things I write to you sin not"

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Foghorn]

Hebrews 10:26-29

King James Version (KJV)

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

I believe the scriptures are pretty clear on this matter.

Are you saying this is speaking of believers?

This is about one who willingly rejects Christ. Since Christ is the only true sacrifice, and when He is despised and rejected, that's it, there is no other sacrifice. Scripture is pretty clear here, Christ is the only way, reject Him and your forever lost. This is not about loosing salvation.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

It seems that St. Paul is talking about "sinning" here, not just "temptation" to sin(see v19 in red above). If this is true, and the Apostle knowingly caved into temptation and sinned after he had been saved, would that one sin disqualify him from ever entering Heaven?

Thanks!

--David

Paul often spoke as a man, meaning he was speaking to the nature of the sinful man; which nature he knew all too well before his conversion. But I can assure you the Apostles did not wilfully sin after receiving of the anointing of the Holy Spirit. Otherwise their doctrine would have been the doctrine of hypocrites.

1 John 3:6
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Are you saying this is speaking of believers?

This is about one who willingly rejects Christ. Since Christ is the only true sacrifice, and when He is despised and rejected, that's it, there is no other sacrifice. Scripture is pretty clear here, Christ is the only way, reject Him and your forever lost. This is not about loosing salvation.

Yes it speaks of those who after receiving the knowledge of the truth wilfully sinning. They turned away from following the Truth.

Speaks of the same here as well.

Hebrews 6:4-6

King James Version (KJV)

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

 

[Foghorn]

Yes it speaks of those who after receiving the knowledge of the truth wilfully sinning. They turned away from following the Truth.

Speaks of the same here as well.

Hebrews 6:4-6

King James Version (KJV)

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

I disagree.

Think about what you just said......." after receiving the knowledge of the truth"

These just received the knowledge, in other words, they were told the gospel. There is nothing proving these people were saved. That is unless, you believe, all one has to do is hear the gospel to be saved?

 

[Foghorn]

Romans 6:14 is an important verse. What's everyone thought on this verse?

Thanks.



14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Romans 6:6-7 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

Whats everyone's thoughts on verse 6-7?

It seems to be teaching that our old self was crucified with Christ and the body of sin is dead (done away with), and we are no longer slaves to sin.

1) If this is the case, considering believers, where does sin come from if the body of sin is dead?

2) What does Paul mean we are freed from sin because the old self has died to it?

What does Paul mean when he says we were slaves to sin, but believers (in Christ) are no longer slaves to sin, but have been set free?

Paul captures this very well in the next chapter. When someone does not know God, they are a slave to sin. We as humans are naturally sinful. That is our nature. If left to ourselves, we would just keep doing the wrong thing. Now an individual might learn what is right and what is wrong through God's law, but unless the person has surrendered their life to Christ, this knowledge would have no effect as they would constantly go against their own mind and follow their sinful lusts. That is what being a slave is. You do not have a choice. Your body wants to sin and in your mind you want to do right, but you have no control and eventually you yield to the wrong.

That is the delimna that a Human being faces with a knowledge of sin and no Holy Spirit presence and indwelling. So Paul speaks about this and says that the good that he wants to do, he does not and instead does the wrong. Then he asks the question, Who shall deliver me from this body of death and the answer is Jesus.

When Jesus comes into your life he makes you a new creature and now you can rely on the power of the holy spirit in your life to lead you to do the things that is right in your mind. Remember the knowledge comes from the law of God, but before you could not do it because you were a slave to sin. Now because of this spirit, you can do what is in your mind. You can do what you actually want to do. Here is where dying to sin comes in. Its simply dying to your own desired and letting God have his way in your life.

 

[hedrick]

Here is my understanding of it.

By sin not being master over us (believers are not slaves of sin) means, (I believe) sin cannot fight on freely, we have a choice not to sin now, as before we had no choice but to sin. Being under grace the victory over sin is assured, because in the gospel we do not have a bare command, which binds us without helping, as in the Law.

I would agree. Jesus is big on who our master is, and being servants. He says you can only serve one master. And vs 15 ff refers to this. (You hear a lot of blather about Paul not caring about Jesus' teaching. While Paul doesn't seem to quote Jesus, he commonly alludes to him. I take this section as based on Jesus' teachings.) So anyone who follows Jesus has changed masters. Sin is no longer their master. But still, as you point out we do sin. It's just not in the driver's seat anymore.

Paul associates sin with the Law, an equation that isn't entirely fair. Lots of people have written about what that means, and in all honesty, I wouldn't presume to have the final word. But you're surely right that a big part of it is that while the Law can provide a standard, it can't enable us to do the right thing.