Romans 14 settles the whole debate

[Daniel Marsh]

Sorry, your trust is in the wrong place if you think that, according to Yahweh.
Read Jesus' Own Words.
Trust Jesus.

The scholars you have previously put your trust in have already failed you.
As Jesus told the disciples: "if you trust yourself , you have already failed" ...
As Jesus told the disciples: "if you trust your heavenly Father, it is already done" ...

He never changed who to trust, no, not ever.
Men did that.

As Jesus told the disciples: If you don't put your trust in your heavenly Father, you have ALREADY FAILED.

Likewise in harmony with all Scripture, trust the Father. Not men, not even the best of men, or you fail already (no matter how many years of trying lie behind or ahead).

What translation are you using? Who translated it? Was it Jesus? If so, which Jesus?

who copied all the Bible's Manuscripts?

who defined the canon of the Bible?

Who are the translators of Bibles?

Who compiled the manuscripts?

If you know the Biblical Languages, who taught you?

Why does the Church have Teachers? Most Scholars are also teachers.

Who defined your doctrines?

If one can only have trust in Jesus for everything, how do you know the airplane you may be on will get to where it is going?

We are to have trust in Jesus for salvation alone.

Putting trust in godly scholars is not on par with putting one's trust in Jesus for salvation --- which is why your post looks silly to me.

What translation is "you can not serve two wives?"

are

Proverbs 3
5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the Lord, and depart from evil.

8 It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.

9 Honour the Lord with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase:

10 So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine.

11 My son, despise not the chastening of the Lord; neither be weary of his correction:

12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

13 Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.

14 For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Is

What translation are you using? Who translated it? Was it Jesus? If so, which Jesus?

who copied all the Bible's Manuscripts?

who defined the canon of the Bible?

Who are the translators of Bibles?

Who compiled the manuscripts?

If you know the Biblical Languages, who taught you?

Why does the Church have Teachers? Most Scholars are also teachers.

Who defined your doctrines?

If one can only have trust in Jesus for everything, how do you know the airplane you may be on will get to where it is going?

We are to have trust in Jesus for salvation alone.

Putting trust in godly scholars is not on par with putting one's trust in Jesus for salvation --- which is why your post looks silly to me.

What translation is "you can not serve two wives?"

are

Proverbs 3
5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the Lord, and depart from evil.

8 It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.

9 Honour the Lord with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase:

10 So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine.

11 My son, despise not the chastening of the Lord; neither be weary of his correction:

12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

13 Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.

14 For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold.

Is verse 5 and 13 a contradictions?

Why would one even bother to study at all?

What does it mean to love God with all you mind? That is what true scholars do.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

"frauds" .... who knows which are and which aren't?

Does that affect your own beliefs ?

Scholars lives are transparent to many who know them. I have known many in my lifetime. Those that live godly lives are not the frauds.

Those like Jim Baker are exposed by the world that hates their religious garb.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

That sounds scholarly balanced...

Thank You,
Daniel

 

[Daniel Marsh]

My understanding is that kata was used to mean "after the manner of" or "as their custom was".

According to Bill Mounce, the best possible translation of kata based on its use and grammar in the sentence in question is everyday.
κατά | billmounce.com
κατά | billmounce.com

Bill is the founder and President of BiblicalTraining.org, serves on the Committee for Bible Translation (which is responsible for the NIV translation of the Bible), and has written the best-selling biblical Greek textbook, Basics of Biblical Greek, and many other Greek resources. He blogs regularly on Greek and issues of spiritual growth.

Bill was also a preaching pastor, a professor of New Testament and director of the Greek Language Program at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, and a professor at Azusa Pacific University.

Robin and he have been married since 1983 and have three adult children. Bill Mounce | billmounce.com

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Kata is a Preposition of the Accusative case.
κατά - Wiktionary

accusative case, acc.
A case that is usually used as the direct object of a verb. For example, if English had a fully productive case system, then ball in "The man threw the ball" would most likely be in the accusative.
Appendix:Glossary - Wiktionary

Basically a translator is an interpreter of the Greek language, who is trying to find a way the best they can to transfer the meaning into the target language of the reader. Some translations like the one that uses "day by day" uses a restricted grade reading level for those who English is a new or second language.

Personally, my private reading in the New American Standard Version. At times I will use the Good News, Phillips NT and the Translators NT.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Bill is the founder and President of BiblicalTraining.org, serves on the Committee for Bible Translation (which is responsible for the NIV translation of the Bible), and has written the best-selling biblical Greek textbook, Basics of Biblical Greek, and many other Greek resources. He blogs regularly on Greek and issues of spiritual growth.

Bill was also a preaching pastor, a professor of New Testament and director of the Greek Language Program at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, and a professor at Azusa Pacific University.

Robin and he have been married since 1983 and have three adult children. Bill Mounce | billmounce.com

Fine, you've established that Bill is a pharisee... his being involved in the NIV tells me all I need to know.

I'll trust what the Spirit tells me, how 'bout you?

 

[RDKirk]

First, the Roman Empire observed a calendar in which the month was divided into two periods of roughly, but not necessarily, fourteen days each. They didn't have a "week"--at least not the 7-day week of the Middle East. They marked months and within months, days from one official holy day to the next, with the middle of the month identified as the "Ides."

Christians attempted to observe the Jewish 7-day week. However, most of them were either slaves or wives of pagan heads of household, thus their time was not their own. Their free days were whichever temple days or holy days were observed by the pagan heads of household--while the husband and older males were at the temple, the others were free to worship.

That meant a great many believers simply could not meet on a 7-day schedule.

But this is the most important point to understand about Romans 14: It comes after Romans 12. If you have achieved Romans 12, you can accept Romans 14.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Fine, you've established that Bill is a pharisee... his being involved in the NIV tells me all I need to know.

I'll trust what the Spirit tells me, how 'bout you?

When I lived in the same area, I went to church with him and knew him personally back then. I know him to be a godly person. The Holy Spirit tells me to trust him.

Now the Holy Spirit tells me to trust him, the Spirit tells you he is a pharisee which he detests --- how does one know which spirit is right?

 

[Daniel Marsh]

First, the Roman Empire observed a calendar in which the month was divided into two periods of roughly, but not necessarily, fourteen days each. They didn't have a "week"--at least not the 7-day week of the Middle East. They marked months and within months, days from one official holy day to the next, with the middle of the month identified as the "Ides."

Christians attempted to observe the Jewish 7-day week. However, most of them were either slaves or wives of pagan heads of household, thus their time was not their own. Their free days were whichever temple days or holy days were observed by the pagan heads of household--while the husband and older males were at the temple, the others were free to worship.

That meant a great many believers simply could not meet on a 7-day schedule.

But this is the most important point to understand about Romans 14: It comes after Romans 12. If you have achieved Romans 12, you can accept Romans 14.

I am curious what source you learned all that from?

 

[RDKirk]

I am curious what source you learned all that from?

Started with taking Latin in 1969. Continued since then.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Started with taking Latin in 1969. Continued since then.

That is interesting.

I am curious about the calendar stuff since I can not find it online.

First, the Roman Empire observed a calendar in which the month was divided into two periods of roughly, but not necessarily, fourteen days each. They didn't have a "week"--at least not the 7-day week of the Middle East. They marked months and within months, days from one official holy day to the next, with the middle of the month identified as the "Ides."

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

When I lived in the same area, I went to church with him and knew him personally back then. I know him to be a godly person. The Holy Spirit tells me to trust him.

Now the Holy Spirit tells me to trust him, the Spirit tells you he is a pharisee which he detests --- how does one know which spirit is right?

Obviously, I don't know the man and my comment was in no way a judgement on him per se... I was responding to his long list of academic and scholarly accomplishments... they mean very little to me when it comes to matters of faith.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Obviously, I don't know the man and my comment was in no way a judgement on him per se... I was responding to his long list of academic and scholarly accomplishments... they mean very little to me when it comes to matters of faith.

Knowing him, he will look us both up to share a godly hung.

 

[BobRyan]

First, the Roman Empire observed a calendar in which the month was divided into two periods of roughly, but not necessarily, fourteen days each. They didn't have a "week"--at least not the 7-day week of the Middle East. They marked months and within months, days from one official holy day to the next, with the middle of the month identified as the "Ides."

Christians attempted to observe the Jewish 7-day week. However, most of them were either slaves or wives of pagan heads of household, thus their time was not their own. Their free days were whichever temple days or holy days were observed by the pagan heads of household--while the husband and older males were at the temple, the others were free to worship.

That meant a great many believers simply could not meet on a 7-day schedule.

But this is the most important point to understand about Romans 14: It comes after Romans 12. If you have achieved Romans 12, you can accept Romans 14.

Extreme speculation in that conclusion -- noted.

Acts 18:4 "EVERY SABBATH" both Jews and gentiles gather for Christian Gospel preaching.

I will stick with the actual Bible on this one.

 

[BobRyan]

Rom 14 -- one man regards with observance one day above another (in that list of Bible approved annual holy days given in Lev 23) -- while another man regards with observance - all of them

Isaiah 58:13 "The Sabbath is the Holy day of the LORD"

week-day-1 is NEVER called "The Lord's Day" in the New Testament OR the Old Testament.

Every reference to Gospel preaching on Sabbath in the NT - is a reference to the real Bible Sabbath and not to week-day-1

So with no Bible source for the weak week-day-1 argument look for an appeal to forged or fraudulent documents.

The phrase the Lord's day occurs only in one verse in the NT.

true - Rev 1 contains it -- and so we have the rest of the Bible to look for things like "Holy Day of the Lord" Isaiah 58:13 and "Son of Man is LORD of the Sabbath" Mark 2:27 ... but nothing else in the Bible a

 

[BobRyan]

Where does Acts 18 fit into the timeline of Rome?

What day is greater than a day of worship?

Acts 18King James Version (KJV)
18 After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth;

2 And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome:) and came unto them.

3 And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers.

4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

5 And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ.

1. The Roman empire started around 160 B.C. long before Acts 18 events occur.
2. Believers who accepted Paul from day 1 or week 2 or week 3 still attend "every Sabbath" the text gives not reference to the much-anticipated "and then started attending week-day-1 services instead".

 

[RDKirk]

Extreme speculation in that conclusion -- noted.

Acts 18:4 "EVERY SABBATH" both Jews and gentiles gather for Christian Gospel preaching.

I will stick with the actual Bible on this one.

There is no speculation about the Roman calendar. We know what that was.

There is no speculation about many early Christians being slaves or wives of pagans--scripture tells us that, as well as extra-biblical sources.

It's certainly not "extreme speculation" that a slave could not set his own comings and goings.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

There is no speculation about the Roman calendar. We know what that was.

There is no speculation about many early Christians being slaves or wives of pagans--scripture tells us that, as well as extra-biblical sources.

It's certainly not "extreme speculation" that a slave could not set his own comings and goings.

What you wrote sounds reasonable to me because when I was in the Airforce, I would often have mixed schedules where I could not worship on any given day or Sunday. This started the beginning of my exposure to home or house churches that could meet on any day.
I found that I had a gift for administration by arranging worship to be available to others on shift type work like MPs, Hospitals and Kitchen duty.

It would make sense that people back then would deal with the same problems.

Many churches need to get over themselves because those who tried to not use the house, home church setting got very depressed.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Hi all can't stay long but wouldn't mind sharing a few thoughts on the chapter. I do not have the same time committments or do I wish to hijack the thread but I will like to look at the chapter in some detail if you guys have some time?