Roman church errors and inventions

[JacktheCatholic]

I think Christians can be Catholic.

LOL

Nevermind Rick. It is good.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

What the hell is a Roman church anyway? I'm a Catholic

It's a church whose Eucharistic assembly is presided over by a bishop in communion with the bishop of Rome.

You know, that definition of whether or not a bishop's apostolic succession is not only valid, but licit? C'mon, that's basic Catholic ecclesiology.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

When I speak to the EOC or OOC I can understand the use of Roman Catholic Church since they see the Pope as one of the Patriarchs and all RCC under that Patriarch. But when Protestants use it there is a sense of ignorance or hate in it, not all the time but sometimes. I think it is because of the history of Protestantism where they sought from the beginning to harm people of the Catholic Church and declare Rome had no power over them. Kind of sad really, that people are still so bigotted today.

Yes, of course, we Protestants sought from the very beginning, quite intentionally, to harm Catholic people. That was clearly the goal of the Reformation.

Do you really, honestly believe that?

Moreover, you're just plain wrong in your historical facts. Lutherans, even in the vitriolic and anti-Catholic (and I am sorry for that) Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope, admit that they would be perfectly willing to recognize papal superiority over them inasmuch as papal superiority is a human tradition with no divine ordination. So we were quite willing (and I can't speak for others, but I still very am willing to recognize the temporal and traditional headship of the Roman bishop) to accept Roman episcopal primature and power.

But hey, why be historically accurate when you could be angry, instead?

 

[simonthezealot]

I'm not a protestant I am a bible Christian and there is only 1 truth my friend...And Christ testified to it.

Christ said everyone who is of the truth hears my voice...

Such as Peter being the holder of the Keys and being made the Shephard of His flock?

Clean your ears Jack...I know you hear Him but something must be muffling Him...

 

[sunlover1]

MamaZ is exactly right. The Martyr complex is only one side of the coin. A guilt complex is on the other. They are both part & parcel of an immature narcisism that fuels delusions of grandeur.

Oh Great!,
so then that must mean that my infant Catholic baptism did take.

You know what they say, "give me a 7 year old and we have them for life".

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Oh Great!,
so then that must mean that my infant Catholic baptism did take.

You know what they say, "give me a 7 year old and we have them for life".

Yes. No amount of showering, bathing, doing moonwalks across the floor will take it away. Your a Catholic forever! Live with it!, don't fight it!......
Interesting discussion here on baptism........

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=1377354

 

[katholikos]

Yes. No amount of showering, bathing, doing moonwalks across the floor will take it away. Your a Catholic forever!......

Are you inferring that being Catholic is somehow filthy, something that needs to be showered away?

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Christ said everyone who is of the truth hears my voice...

That is because God the Father has called them.

"They belonged to you, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word" (John 17)

We are children of God the Father and if the Father gives us to Jesus then we hear and see. But we do this spiritually and our heart is changed from it.

Clean your ears Jack...I know you hear Him but something must be muffling Him...

Funny guy... LOL

 

[katholikos]

I hear Jesus loud and clear:

John 6:53
So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.

John 3:5
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Matthew 16:18
"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

 

[simonthezealot]

I hear Jesus loud and clear:

John 6:53
So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.

John 3:5
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Matthew 16:18
"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

Here are a few you may need to adjust your volume on...

9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
------------------------------------
25And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him. 26 But[SIZE=+0] Peter[SIZE=+0] took[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] him[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] up[/SIZE][SIZE=+0], saying[/SIZE][SIZE=+0], Stand up[/SIZE][SIZE=+0]; I[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] myself[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] also[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] am[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] a man[/SIZE][SIZE=+0]. [/SIZE]
[/SIZE]
--------------------------------------
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
-------------------------------
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

------------------------------
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
----------------------------
1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

-------------------------------------

1Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem.
2 And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault.
3 For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.
4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.
5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?
6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
--------------------------

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Here are a few you may need to adjust your volume on...

The volume seems OK, I wonder if it is the reception?

9

And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
------------------------------------

Paul calls himself father.

He calls Isaac father in Romans.

The use of Father here is to say no one can claim that which is God's and in Heaven God is the only father and all the rest are brothers and sisters. But it in no way forbids us from calling men like Paul father.

25

And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him. 26 But[SIZE=+0] Peter[SIZE=+0] took[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] him[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] up[/SIZE][SIZE=+0], saying[/SIZE][SIZE=+0], Stand up[/SIZE][SIZE=+0]; I[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] myself[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] also[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] am[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] a man[/SIZE][SIZE=+0]. [/SIZE]
[/SIZE]
--------------------------------------

Peter is a humble man and knows that people should find their glory and strength in God even though God uses men like Peter to teach and guide. It is giving God all the credit even though we are His instrument.

4

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
-------------------------------

Yes, the Jews did learn many Pagan things and one of them was to worship the Egyptian gods. They were like sick children that needed to be cured and God knew this. I find His requirement for animal sacrifices one of the reasons the Jews eventually gave up their worship of Egyptian gods like the "golden calf". I suspect having to sacrifice a calf to Yehwah did a lot in removing the stigma that a calf had some power or was protected by an Egyptian god.

5

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

------------------------------

That is awesome. That is part of the victory over death. Imagine having our body die here and when God the Father sees us He also sees Jesus for we are in Jesus. It is awesome being in Jesus and knowing that all those in Heaven and those on earth in Him are connected as One Body. This is how we communicate with the Saints in Heaven.

7

But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
----------------------------

Yes some seek the praise of men and consider themselves better than others. It was Jesus who taught us to be servants to all and to "empty ourselves" (what is that word? Kenosis).

1

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

-------------------------------------

Yes, what is being spoken of here?

"Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats"

What is this a prophecy and if so to what?

Here is a very plausible explanation:
He speaks of the Gnostics, the Marcionites, the Encratites, the Manicheans, and other ancient heretics, who absolutely condemned marriage, and the use of all kind of meat; because they pretended that all flesh was from an evil principle. Whereas the church of God, so far from condemning marriage, holds it a holysacrament; and forbids it to none but such as by vow have chosen the better part: and prohibits not the use of any meats whatsoever in proper times and seasons; though she does not judge all kind of diet proper for days of fasting and penance.
http://www.newadvent.org/bible/1ti004.htm

Prophecies can be fun to try and figure out. But like Joseph I think it requires an act of God and not simply study and imagination. But still fun.

1

Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem.
2 And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault.
3 For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.
4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.
5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?
6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
--------------------------

Yes, Jesus always taught us to think spiritually and to soften our hearts. To do anything simply because you have to is empty but to do it with Love is great.

Very good quotes Simon for they remind us of much that God has told us and wants for us.

God is awesome.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Paul calls himself father.

He calls Isaac father in Romans.

The use of Father here is to say no one can claim that which is God's and in Heaven God is the only father and all the rest are brothers and sisters. But it in no way forbids us from calling men like Paul father.

Paul was a Judean from the tribe of Benjamin, who was from the loins of Jacob/Israel so yes, in essence Isaac was the father of the OC Hebrew Isrealites and Isaac was from the loins of Abraham.

Why do you suppose this rich-man is crying to Abraham as Father?

Luke 16:24 And he sounding said: "Father Abraham! be thou merciful to-me! and send Lazarus!, that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water, and should be cooling down the tongue of me,--that I am being pained in the Flame/flogi <5395>, this."

 

[simonthezealot]

"Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats"

What is this a prophecy and if so to what?

So you don't see the connection with this verse and Rome following the way of the Nicolatians?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Paul was a Judean from the tribe of Benjamin, who was from the loins of Jacob/Israel so yes, in essence Isaac was the father of the OC Hebrew Isrealites and Isaac was from the loins of Abraham.

Why do you suppose this rich-man is crying to Abraham as Father?

Luke 16:24 And he sounding said: "Father Abraham! be thou merciful to-me! and send Lazarus!, that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water, and should be cooling down the tongue of me,--that I am being pained in the Flame/flogi <5395>, this."

Oh, don't forget the samaritan woman calling Jacob her father........

John 4:11 Is saying to Him, the woman, "Lord! not a bucket Thou are having, and the well is deep, whence then Thou are having the water, the living? 12 No Thou greater are of the father of us Jacob, who gives to us the well, and himself out of it drank, and sons of him , and the nurtured of him? [Genesis 29]

 

[AmericanCatholic]

Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Like this guy? Or this one, this one, and this one?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Like this guy? Or this one, this one, and this one?

So who reads or listens to them?. I don't even read the ECFs and it seems like Protestants, Orthodox and RCs are divided on what they even say from what I have seen.

 

[simonthezealot]

[/color]


Paul calls himself father.

He calls Isaac father in Romans.

The use of Father here is to say no one can claim that which is God's and in Heaven God is the only father and all the rest are brothers and sisters. But it in no way forbids us from calling men like Paul father.

I would say that would include in persona christi as well as the "vicar of Christ"...
Christ himself does tell us that it is a pompous title that should NOT be used.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

So you don't see the connection with this verse and Rome following the way of the Nicolatians?

I understand what you are saying but do not agree with it.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

So who reads or listens to them?. I don't even read the ECFs and it seems like Protestants, Orthodox and RCs are divided on what they even say from what I have seen.

If only John Chrysostom was here to clear up a few of his writings.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

If only John Chrysostom was here to clear up a few of his writings.

Yeah, I would also help him clear up a few things.

John 4:11 Is saying to Him, the woman, "Lord! not a bucket Thou are having, and the well/frear <5421> is deep/baqu <901>, whence then Thou are having the water, the living?

Revelation 9:1 And the Fifth messager trumpets, and I perceive a Star out of the heaven, having fallen into the land. And was given to him the key of the well/freatoV <5421> of the abyss/a-bussou <12>,