Roman Catholic teachings denounced by Orthodox groups?

[SabbathBlessings]

You're judging right now , by saying that you believe the word of God in a debate with other Christians. The implication is that Christians who disagree with you do not believe the word of God.
You're attributing sin (lack of fidelity to Christ) to others

That is really reading into something you want and not what is stated in anyway. I am saying I believe in what the Bible teaches not what man teaches. By your philosophy posting scripture and stating you believe in the scripture is judging than wouldn't that also apply to you and everyone else? Honestly this is a very strange assumption to make and not one I made or even thought for that matter.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

So? It's the same in Lutheranism. The Orthodox have a right to have closed communion. If I became Orthodox I would denounce what they wanted me to. I would probably be rebaptized too. I don't see that as a problem. It's simple humility.

Btw, what is the point in any of us quoting scripture when debating with you or Sabbath? Honestly can you be persuaded that Rome or Orthodoxy interprets scripture correctly and you do not?

We follow Christ's example in Mark 7:6-13 and the NT Christians of Acts 17:11... not everyone approves of them.

And from the OP we see that the Orthodox liturgy demands that certain doctrines of Lutherans be publically declared heresy and rejected before joining the Eastern Orthodox church.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Interesting, since I am not the one who accused you of anything, but I am getting the feeling you are of me.

Let me ask you what I asked Bob. Are you open to the possibility that Rome or Orthodoxy interprets scripture correctly? If so, I will proceed, if not there is nothing more to be said.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Let me ask you what I asked Bob. Are you open to the possibility that Rome or Orthodoxy interprets scripture correctly? If so, I will proceed, if not there is nothing more to be said.

What does this have to do with you saying this:

You're judging right now

We were talking about scripture and I find when someone does not have a response to scripture that's when these type of statements come in. I prefer to stay on the topic of scripture. If that is of interest than I would be willing to continue. God bless

 

[rturner76]

All Christian groups have the same 'origin' - the NT church.

Page one of this thread - opening post - the Orthodox demand that Catholics publically recant what they call the heresy of Catholic doctrines before being allowed to join the Orthodox church.



Matt 16 "you are pebble (Peter) and upon this foundation stone I will build my church"

Matt 16 is the chapter where Jesus then refers to Peter as Satan "get thee behind Me Satan".

1 Cor 3:11 "No other foundation stone can anyone lay other than that which has been laid"

Peter=Rock That is what his name means in Greek, not pebble. That's just trying to knock down The Roman Church.

Matthew 18:18 “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

Seems here like he left Peter in charge of the church. He set up the system of Bishops with the Bishop of Rome being "first among equals.

 

[rturner76]

I’m happy to participle in discussing scriptures so these are your words, not mine. The scriptures teaches us the Holy Spirit will lead us in all Truth and we have the Word of God as our manual. I don’t need Rome to teach me their version of scripture and teaching traditions over scripture, when we have the Holy Spirit and God’s Word. If you change your mind, let me know.

God bless

You need more than just the Holy Spirit and the Bible, you need a teacher or you may misinterpret what you are reading.

That's why the Orthodox Church has issues with some of the things Roman Catholics believe. So If someone were to try and teach those things in an Orthodox Church they would be stopped by their Bishop or taken out of the pulpit.

When people take JUST the Holy Spirit and do their own interpretation, they start new churches with new teachings without having received proper instruction.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

That text says only God Himself will be our judge in heaven and no human will stand in for us - we must each one give an account - God accepts no substitute. There is only "One Mediator between God and man" 1 Tim 2:5

5 "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

So even in these examples each has a hierarchy above them telling them that wrong is right -- they ignored it





Which is what the Jewish magesterium could have said to people in Acts 17:11 and what Saul could say to the Christians in Jerusalem... and yet be wrong in saying that. How is this not obvious.

In any case we each one belong to a denomination and the church in each case tells us all we are right. Your solution solves nothing even if we ignore the fact it would not have worked at all in the two examples you are responding to.



No text says that. Are you trying out creative writing? you only quote 'you' as your source.

As Christians we can quote scripture for who the Holy Spirit speaks to.

John 16 - "the Holy Spirit convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment " - not "just Apostles".

1 John 2 - the Holy Spirit TEACHES each person.

25 This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.
26 These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. 27 And as for you, the anointing which you received from Him remains in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you remain in Him.​

Rom 8:16 "the Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we ARE the children of God" - does not say that the Holy Spirit only does that for "the Apostles".



Sure there is -- the Church leaders, scholars etc in the church I attend. But in the end none of them will answer to God in my place - I alone will be called to answer according to the scripture above that you are opposing.

========================



I am an SDA - we have a prophet with direct message from God and 10's of thousands of pages of manuscript - messages directly guiding the church in these last days. I don't see how that argument you make above is helping you.

But STILL I am accountable to God for what I choose to accept or reject according to these scriptures.

Bob, peace be with you, I am not trying creative writing but am trying to understand what you are saying. My words only reflect my understanding of what you are saying. If I am misunderstanding you, you have the complete freedom to correct me.
Your original argument seemed to be that we rely on scripture alone. I agree that we are each responsible to God individually and will have to give an account of our actions.
You mention denominations, but Paul taught against denominations. In his letter he rebuked those who were saying I am of Paul, I am of Apollos, I am of Christ. Is Christ divided? How would you address that scripture?
You also say you have a prophet that spoke directly to God and wrote 10,000 pages of manuscript. How do you know that the person claiming to be a prophet actually spoke directly to God? Is there a way to determine the truthfulness of those claims? How would you tell the difference between a true and false prophet?

I want to understand you Bob, you have the floor

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You need more than just the Holy Spirit and the Bible, you need a teacher or you may misinterpret what you are reading.

That's why the Orthodox Church has issues with some of the things Roman Catholics believe. So If someone were to try and teach those things in an Orthodox Church they would be stopped by their Bishop or taken out of the pulpit.

When people take JUST the Holy Spirit and do their own interpretation, they start new churches with new teachings without having received proper instruction.

I will have to disrespectfully disagree. Scriptures teach us the opposite:
John 14:26
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.


There are thousands of churches but there is only one Gospel and one Truth. To by honest the majority flunk the basic test of the Bible

Isaiah 8:20 20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Revelations 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Churches teaching they can alter scripture or delete a commandment of God is not coming from God, Psalm 30:5-6, Psalm 89:34

I’m not saying you can’t learn from being in church, but we should not lean on churches for our understanding of scripture. The Holy Spirit is given to those who want to obey the commandments of God John 14:15-18, Acts 5:32 and will teach you all things. There is a war going on with our souls and so many churches take a small kernel of truth and mix it with other doctrine that makes it a false teaching, but it sounds good. My brother asked me to listen to a sermon his Sunday pastor was talking about on the Sabbath. It was actually amazing how they read scripture about the Sabbath and the commandment and than say it no longer applies, but took a small part of it to use for their benefit, not the way God plainly wrote it. I can’t believe people buy into it. Sad really,

The scriptures tells us the devil deceives the whole world. If we stick with the law and the prophets and what is taught there and obey God and ask for the Holy Spirit to lead us to all Truth and are willing to give up our will and replace it with the will of God we can be taught all things according to very clear scriptures.

God bless!

 

[bbbbbbb]

You need more than just the Holy Spirit and the Bible, you need a teacher or you may misinterpret what you are reading.

That's why the Orthodox Church has issues with some of the things Roman Catholics believe. So If someone were to try and teach those things in an Orthodox Church they would be stopped by their Bishop or taken out of the pulpit.

When people take JUST the Holy Spirit and do their own interpretation, they start new churches with new teachings without having received proper instruction.

Actually, despite their claims to the contrary, the SDA do have a teacher who was also their prophetess. her name is Ellen White and her interpretations, such as they were, determine the beliefs of their denomination.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Actually, despite their claims to the contrary, the SDA do have a teacher who was also their prophetess. her name is Ellen White and her interpretations, such as they were, determine the beliefs of their denomination.

This is incorrect, Ellen White helped form the SDA church and the teachings come directly from scripture. Ellen White also tells us all teachings must be tested by scripture.

Here is the official SDA belief so you are spreading false information.

It is belief #1

The Holy Scriptures, Old and New Testaments, are the written Word of God, given by divine inspiration.

The inspired authors spoke and wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. In this Word, God has committed to humanity the knowledge necessary for salvation.

The Holy Scriptures are the supreme, authoritative, and the infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the test of experience, the definitive revealer of doctrines, and the trustworthy record of God’s acts in history.

(Ps. 119:105; Prov. 30:5, 6; Isa. 8:20; John 17:17; 1 Thess. 2:13; 2 Tim. 3:16, 17; Heb. 4:12; 2 Peter 1:20, 21.)

 

[BobRyan]

Your original argument seemed to be that we rely on scripture alone. I agree that we are each responsible to God individually and will have to give an account of our actions.

Ok that helps me know what you are getting from this. My argument is that we "test" all doctrine and tradition by "scripture alone" - so then "sola scriptura". But as we see in the case of Nathan, and Agabus and Anna in the temple and Philips 4 daughters and everyone in the church in 1 Cor 14:26 (according to Paul "each one has a revelation") -- God has the ability and established practice of speaking to any human He wants even when that message is not then recorded in the Bible.

You mention denominations

True - and by that I mean all the varied groups of Orthodox and Catholic and Evangelical and Protestant etc.

, but Paul taught against denominations. In his letter he rebuked those who were saying I am of Paul, I am of Apollos, I am of Christ. Is Christ divided?

That is not "denominations". In a single denomination and well known established Bible scholar or pastor may have a "following" but it does not make it a "denomination". Apollos, Christ and Paul did not have "different doctrine". They were well know figures in a single denomination.

How would you address that scripture?

Paul is making the case that although there are various evangelists and teachers - they are not on par with Christ and should not be followed as if they were yet another Christ. We also see "people from James" show up in Gal 2:11-12 and Peter is somewhat cowed by them because James is of such high esteem and Peter himself still recovering from being called "satan" in Matt 16 and betraying Christ 3 times. At that point Peter gets smacked down by Paul as Paul reminds us in Gal 2.

Still none of that is a case of different denominations or different religions - but rather different personalities in a single church/denomination all having the same doctrine (hence the same denomination)

You also say you have a prophet that spoke directly to God and wrote 10,000 pages of manuscript.

That was in response to your "do you only listen to yourself ? is there no one you respect as a spiritual leader? /teacher?" kind of question.

I assume you are glad to know that did list examples of the fact that I have people that I do respect in my denomination just as people in all denominations (including yours) would also affirm for themselves in their respective denominations.

How do you know that the person claiming to be a prophet actually spoke directly to God? Is there a way to determine the truthfulness of those claims? How would you tell the difference between a true and false prophet?

Sola Scriptura testing. The Bible gives a number of 'tests" for a prophet as we see in
1 John 4:1-3
Isaiah 8:20
Gal 1:6-9
Matt 7:15-20 ... etc.

And it is my understanding for example that not only does Paul pass the test of a prophet given in scripture - so also does Moses and so also does Jonah.

The Seventh-day Adventist denomination is one of the fastest growing and fifth largest denomination in the world according to Christianity Today - in its Feb 2015 article.

It has the second largest private Christian school system in the world and the second largest Christian healthcare/hospital system in the world. However the group started with only about 50 people in the fall of 1844.

The point is - that we don't do that by selling non-SDAs on Ellen White as a prophet - rather we do it with sola scriptura testing of Bible doctrine -- instead.

 

[BobRyan]

You need more than just the Holy Spirit and the Bible, you need a teacher

The Holy Spirit IS our teacher according to scripture.

John 16:
12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

John 14:
25 “These things I have spoken to you while remaining with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and remind you of all that I said to you.

1 John 2:
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know. ...
26 These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. 27 And as for you, the anointing which you received from Him remains in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you remain in Him.

=======================

And as noted here - even NON-Christians in Acts 17:11 are able to rely on this fact and denounce the tradition of their magesterium - and choose the Christian doctrine of Paul even though he was declared to be a heretic teaching heresy.

 

[BobRyan]

Is there no one else that you go to for spiritual counsel? Anyone whose opinion you value, or do you rely on your understanding of scripture alone?

Sure there is -- the Church leaders, scholars etc in the church I attend. But in the end none of them will answer to God in my place - I alone will be called to answer according to the scripture above that you are opposing.

========================

The Bible says in Ephesians 4 that not everyone is an Apostle. It says He gave some Apostles, some prophets, some pastors and teachers. It appears that there is a rank order among the spiritual leaders of the Church.

I am an SDA - we have a prophet with direct messages from God and 10's of thousands of pages of manuscript - messages directly guiding the church in these last days. I don't see how that argument you make above is helping you.

But STILL I am accountable to God for what I choose to accept or reject according to these scriptures.

The Bereans, that you use as an example, were not sola scripturists. They searched the scriptures sure,

Yes they are -- because their own magisterium had already passed judgment on Paul saying he was a heretic and his doctrine heresy. If they followed your suggestion they would have rejected Christianity.

Paul was not "their apostle" he was "their heretic" according to their own church magesterium.

Notice in that post above - we find these words

I am an SDA - we have a prophet with direct message from God and 10's of thousands of pages of manuscript - messages directly guiding the church in these last days. I don't see how that argument you make above is helping you.

But STILL I am accountable to God for what I choose to accept or reject according to these scriptures.
​

How "odd" then to find this false accusation posted here - sometime after that...

Actually, despite their claims to the contrary, the SDA do have a teacher who was also their prophetess. her name is Ellen White and her interpretations, such as they were, determine the beliefs of their denomination.

 

[tampasteve]

This is incorrect, Ellen White helped form the SDA church and the teachings come directly from scripture. Ellen White also tells us all teachings must be tested by scripture.

Here is the official SDA belief so you are spreading false information.

It is belief #1

The Holy Scriptures, Old and New Testaments, are the written Word of God, given by divine inspiration.

The inspired authors spoke and wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. In this Word, God has committed to humanity the knowledge necessary for salvation.

The Holy Scriptures are the supreme, authoritative, and the infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the test of experience, the definitive revealer of doctrines, and the trustworthy record of God’s acts in history.

(Ps. 119:105; Prov. 30:5, 6; Isa. 8:20; John 17:17; 1 Thess. 2:13; 2 Tim. 3:16, 17; Heb. 4:12; 2 Peter 1:20, 21.)

None of that makes it "incorrect". Luther's interpretations have a major influence on Lutheranism. Calvin's interpretations on Calvinism, etc. It is common for the major founders in different denominations to have their interpretations viewed as the "correct" view - and they all are reading the scripture directly.

 

[tampasteve]

Notice in that post above - we find these words

I am an SDA - we have a prophet with direct message from God and 10's of thousands of pages of manuscript - messages directly guiding the church in these last days. I don't see how that argument you make above is helping you.

But STILL I am accountable to God for what I choose to accept or reject according to these scriptures.
​

How "odd" then to find this false accusation posted here - sometime after that...

It's not so odd. Some SDA say she was a "Prophet", some say she "spoke in prophesy" but was not a prophet. The difference is slim but important. What is important is that her thinking and interpretations, and thousands of pages of "prophesy" have greatly colored the views of the denomination and followers.

 

[rturner76]

But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

He was talking to hid Desciples not all men/ The Apostles took the teaching of CHrist and through the guidance of the Holt Spirit founded the CHurches that became the universal or "Catholic" Church. THat Church has the teachings of the Apostles.

Sorry to disagree but yes laymen do need a teacher who has been taught by the successors of the original Church via Apostolic Succession. Orthodox believe in it, Catholics, and Anglicans believe in the Apostolic Succession. The three oldest CHurches all believe in it. It was the Protestants that had different Churched teach different things. How can all of these CHurches be led by the Holy Spirit

 

[SabbathBlessings]

None of that makes it "incorrect". Luther's interpretations have a major influence on Lutheranism. Calvin's interpretations on Calvinism, etc. It is common for the major founders in different denominations to have their interpretations viewed as the "correct" view - and they all are reading the scripture directly.

Hi there,

I was responding to this post: the SDA do have a teacher who was also their prophetess. her name is Ellen White and her interpretations, such as they were, determine the beliefs of their denomination.


And that is a false statement about the teaching of the SDA church as shown by our Statement of Belief

Seventh-day Adventists accept the Bible as their only creed and hold certain fundamental beliefs to be the teaching of the Holy Scriptures. These beliefs, as set forth here, constitute the church’s understanding and expression of the teaching of Scripture.
What do Seventh Day Adventists Really Believe? - Adventist.org

The Holy Scriptures, Old and New Testaments, are the written Word of God, given by divine inspiration.

The inspired authors spoke and wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. In this Word, God has committed to humanity the knowledge necessary for salvation.

The Holy Scriptures are the supreme, authoritative, and the infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the test of experience, the definitive revealer of doctrines, and the trustworthy record of God’s acts in history.

(Ps. 119:105; Prov. 30:5, 6; Isa. 8:20; John 17:17; 1 Thess. 2:13; 2 Tim. 3:16, 17; Heb. 4:12; 2 Peter 1:20, 21.)

Hope this helps.

God bless

 

[rturner76]

The Holy Spirit IS our teacher according to scripture.

John 16:
12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

John 14:
25 “These things I have spoken to you while remaining with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and remind you of all that I said to you.

1 John 2:
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know. ...
26 These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. 27 And as for you, the anointing which you received from Him remains in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you remain in Him.

=======================

And as noted here - even NON-Christians in Acts 17:11 are able to rely on this fact and denounce the tradition of their magesterium - and choose the Christian doctrine of Paul even though he was declared to be a heretic teaching heresy.

He was talking to his Disciples because they had been given the revelation by Christ and Christ sent the Holy Spirit to keep them on the right track. That doesn't mean anybody can pick up a Bible, call on the Holy Spirit and find absolute truth. They won't know where to begin or how to interpret. The Apostles were squared away. a new Christian will just confuse themself if they tey to dive into the Bible and interpret it for themselves. We need teachers. That was the Apostles mission, to teach teachers that will teach the masses.

 

[tampasteve]

Hi there,

I was responding to this post: the SDA do have a teacher who was also their prophetess. her name is Ellen White and her interpretations, such as they were, determine the beliefs of their denomination.


And that is a false statement about the teaching of the SDA church as shown by our Statement of Belief

Seventh-day Adventists accept the Bible as their only creed and hold certain fundamental beliefs to be the teaching of the Holy Scriptures. These beliefs, as set forth here, constitute the church’s understanding and expression of the teaching of Scripture.
What do Seventh Day Adventists Really Believe? - Adventist.org

The Holy Scriptures, Old and New Testaments, are the written Word of God, given by divine inspiration.

The inspired authors spoke and wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. In this Word, God has committed to humanity the knowledge necessary for salvation.

The Holy Scriptures are the supreme, authoritative, and the infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the test of experience, the definitive revealer of doctrines, and the trustworthy record of God’s acts in history.

(Ps. 119:105; Prov. 30:5, 6; Isa. 8:20; John 17:17; 1 Thess. 2:13; 2 Tim. 3:16, 17; Heb. 4:12; 2 Peter 1:20, 21.)

Hope this helps.

God bless

Sure, but the quote says:

and hold certain fundamental beliefs to be the teaching of the Holy Scriptures. These beliefs, as set forth here, constitute the church’s understanding and expression of the teaching of Scripture.

Those "certain fundamental beliefs" that are the "church’s understanding and expression of the teaching of Scripture" are the ones that are primarily influenced by Ellen White, as said in thread to be a Prophet or to have spoke in Prophesy. As it is said in the "Official Beliefs":

This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and we believe it was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. Her writings speak with prophetic authority and provide comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction to the church.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

He was talking to hid Desciples not all men/ The Apostles took the teaching of CHrist and through the guidance of the Holt Spirit founded the CHurches that became the universal or "Catholic" Church. THat Church has the teachings of the Apostles.

Sorry to disagree but yes laymen do need a teacher who has been taught by the successors of the original Church via Apostolic Succession. Orthodox believe in it, Catholics, and Anglicans believe in the Apostolic Succession. The three oldest CHurches all believe in it. It was the Protestants that had different Churched teach different things. How can all of these CHurches be led by the Holy Spirit

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I do not believe the apostles founded the Catholic church and there is no such indication in scriptures. The church was built on the Word of God. Many of God's original church people were persecuted for Sabbath keeping by the Roman church.