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Roman Catholic teachings denounced by Orthodox groups?

Discussion in 'Denomination Specific Theology' started by BobRyan, Sep 28, 2021.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    starting at 35:48 and going up to 1:29:20 we see a long list of things that apparently must be "renounced" publically as in "I renounce this teaching" -- to join certain Orthodox churches. (Which suprised me somewhat). And a lot of those things are specifically stated to be Roman Catholic - that the these Orthodox groups say must be renounced as heresy.



    38:20 begins a section on specifically renouncing certain doctrines of the Lutheran church.

    43:43 A Roman Catholic priest converting - and must renounce certain Catholic doctrines

    43:53-- "fake dogma that the Holy Spirit proceeds from ..."
    46:57 -- "renounce the wrong doctrine that instead of Jesus Christ - the Pope is the head head of the universal church"?

    <Just a few short examples of the list to be renounced to illustrate that this is not merely about "politics" >

    Now normally I would say "fine we expect some differences like that since they are different denominations" (Though I find it very unusual to have "I renounce this-or-that" in the actual liturgy of a christening or baptism or profession-of-faith vote into membership - for other denominations).

    The reason I bring this up is that now and then in the General Theology forum we see complaints about "sola scriptura generates all those Protestant Denominations" as if there is no denominational difference in doctrine between Catholic groups and Orthodox groups - while claiming the "sola scriptura" doctrine is what creates differences and so Catholics supposedly have no such difference with the Orthodox groups as one might find between certain Protestant or Evangelical groups.

    BTW - check out this post for a further point on SS vs tradition.


    But the video in this OP appears to "shed more light" on that detail than one normally hears about in the General Theology forum.

    From the video evidence here it appears their differences are as significant as any other difference between lets say Baptist and Presbyterian etc. In fact the Orthodox/vs/Roman Catholic list of "I renounce" may be much larger than one would find between Presbyterian and Baptist.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2021
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  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    My point is just that their differences appear to be pretty large and cannot be used to argue that those different denominations are not as diverse as Presbyterian vs Baptist (for example). (Which is a charge against non-Catholic groups that is made when the topic of "Sola Scriptura" testing of all doctrine and practice, comes up)
     
  3. Albion

    Albion Factchecker

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    Yes, there are significant doctrinal differences between the RCC and EOCs.
     
  4. Abaxvahl

    Abaxvahl Well-Known Member

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    We have massive differences between the "Old Churches" as I call them (RCC, EOC, OOC, ACOE). From my perspective there might as well be infinite gaps between us (exaggeration but one gets the point). This makes sense though as for example we (Catholics) have 21 Ecumenical Councils and the Orthodox have 8 or 9. Although to my knowledge we do not either think of ourselves as a denomination but as the Church.

    From my perspective Protestantism isn't really that divided either, it's ultimately like 10 or so groups with difference organizational bodies.
     
  5. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    I didn't join the Eastern Orthodox (Chalcedonian) Church, but I had to do the same as part of my baptism into the Coptic Orthodox (non-Chalcedonian) Church. I don't remember the rite mentioning specific errors belonging to the Chalcedonians, but that doesn't matter. I would think such a renunciation is a fairly standard part of all Orthodox baptismal rites, as anyone who would be enmeshed in the community to the point of asking for baptism surely must've given up whatever kept them from Orthodoxy up until that point. (Though of course the process of acquiring the mind of the Church and fully embracing the faith is a life-long one, as we must choose Orthodoxy every day.)

    Also, why wouldn't the list of EO vs. RC disagreements be larger than between any two Protestant groups? The EO and the RC are both older than any Protestant group, so of course they have more to disagree over. I don't see the point in saying that they have more disagreements among each other. They're not the same church anymore, so they don't believe the same things, or practice their faith in the same way. This is to be expected, or else (presumably) they would've never separated into two different communions in the first place.
     
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  6. GreekOrthodox

    GreekOrthodox Psalti Chrysostom

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    Listened to a little of it and basically he was mocking the Orthodox faith. He even makes fun of the term "paedocommunion" which simply is Communion given to infants.

    Orthodox and Catholics have had excommunications and wars and now more peaceful discussions about our various differences. We know what we're trying to resolve. This is an outsider who has no knowledge other than what he reads on websites and knows none of the theology that is behind this.
     
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  7. concretecamper

    concretecamper Member of His Church

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    the massive division in Christianity post reformation dwarfs by a factor of 1,000 the division that occurred pre reformation.

    So one can rightly conclude SS is the MAIN reason.
     
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    Anyone that joins a particular denomination from another one as in the example of the Catholic priest joining the Orthodox church or any other example one might note - has at least one doctrinal difference that is now changed. Yet most churches don't have a list of "I renounce" as part of the liturgy used to join by profession of faith or by baptism.

    In any case - I simply note that the "feature" that "differences do exist" extends well beyond evangelical and Protestant into Orthodox and Roman Catholic as we see in that video.
     
  9. concretecamper

    concretecamper Member of His Church

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    with all due respect, I'm not sure anyone would be surprised.
     
  10. Thatgirloncfforums

    Thatgirloncfforums Lutheranism, Orthodoxy, or Rome?

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    Please give a list of these denominations.

    Presbyterians, Lutherans and Anglicans are Confessional Churches. Which means that Scripture is interpreted according to a Creedal standard. For Lutherans, that Creedal standard includes the Church Fathers (As witnesses). Meaning, that a Lutheran can no more depart from their Tradition than a Roman Catholic can.
    All Confessional Protestants are unified on Christology. Although there may be somewhat of a difference between Calvinists and Lutherans. Soteriologically speaking, they are divided into three camps, Arminianism, Calvinism and Lutheranism. These Soteriological positions can each be traced back to the undivided Church, in that they are logical developments of the same.

    I cannot speak for the Anabaptists or Methodists.

    So, Sola Scriptura has not divided the Church.


     
  11. Thatgirloncfforums

    Thatgirloncfforums Lutheranism, Orthodoxy, or Rome?

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    Confessional Lutherans don't 'renounce' anymore, although they at one time did. But they do have to make a public statement of faith, agreeing to adhere to the teachings of the Evangelical Lutheran Church as taught in the Small Catechism.

    Which, to be frank, I see as essentially the same as renouncing their old affiliation.


     
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    The night-vs-day discussions between Calvinist and Arminians are legendary. Hard to miss.
     
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    Nobody is surprised that someone needs to publically confess/agree with the primary doctrinal statements of whatever denomination they join.

    What is not so common is a "literugy" that goes through a list of Catholic or Lutheran or ... doctrinal statements and requires that the person publically "renounce" those doctrines calling them heresy etc. (Not the main point of this thread -- but something I did find a bit unusual)
     
  14. zippy2006

    zippy2006 Dragonsworn

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    Sola Scriptura does lead to division and factionalism. This does not mean that division and factionalism only exist among those who hold to Sola Scriptura. It does mean that Christians who hold to Sola Scriptura will tend to have more division and factionalism than those who hold to traditional doctrinal derivations.

    So yes, there are differences between Catholics and Orthodox, but their differences are less significant than those between Catholics and Protestants or Orthodox and Protestants.
     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    Using that logic then Creedalism or Catholicism has lead to all the factions/denominations -- since that was at the root and since we have this example of Orthodox groups demanding that Catholic priests publically renounce what their liturgy calls "the heresy" of Catholic doctrine in the OP video before being allowed to join the Orthodox church.

    That appears to be a matter of "preference" given the OP video of Orthodox churches demanding that Catholic priests publically renounce what their liturgy calls "the heresy" of Catholic doctrine in the OP video before being allowed to join the Orthodox church. (Something that even Protestant and Evangelical churches do not demand of those Catholic priests before joining)
     
  16. Thatgirloncfforums

    Thatgirloncfforums Lutheranism, Orthodoxy, or Rome?

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    They're quite interesting really. In my opinion, they reflect writ small, the soteriologically divide between East and West.
     
  17. zippy2006

    zippy2006 Dragonsworn

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    'Not sure what your reasoning is for this. I'm not following "that logic."
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    you were responding to this post
    3 minutes ago #15
    -
    I added a statement to it that you might find instructive since it appears you did not watch the OP video and this is not working out well for the Catholic POV using the logic you are posting. I am not sure you would do that if you had seen the video.
     
  19. Thatgirloncfforums

    Thatgirloncfforums Lutheranism, Orthodoxy, or Rome?

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    Uh, excuse me, no.

    In some respects, there is more congruity between a Calvinist or Lutheran and a Roman Catholic than there is between these and E. Orthodoxy. No one formed their theology out of a vacuum. Lutherans, Roman Catholics and Calvinists share a common patrimony.

    Sola Scriptura is a placeholder for a doctrine of how Scripture and Tradition fit together, it is not a negation of Tradition. Sola Scriptura is not Biblicalism.

    [ QUOTE="zippy2006, post: 76265523, member: 342410"]Sola Scriptura does lead to division and factionalism. This does not mean that division and factionalism only exist among those who hold to Sola Scriptura. It does mean that Christians who hold to Sola Scriptura will tend to have more division and factionalism than those who hold to traditional doctrinal derivations.

    So yes, there are differences between Catholics and Orthodox, but their differences are less significant than those between Catholics and Protestants or Orthodox and Protestants.[/QUOTE]
     
  20. zippy2006

    zippy2006 Dragonsworn

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    There are two reasons for this:
    1. Protestants are not considered important enough to be worthy of sanction.
    2. Protestant errors are so variegated that it would be difficult to address them in toto.

    For example, if you want to be part of the Magic Johnson fan club you have to renounce Larry Bird. You don't have to say a word about Sylvester Williams. This doesn't mean that Magic fans think Williams was better than Bird. It just means they don't really care about Sylvester Williams. He is not worthy of mention.
     
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