Roman Catholic..anything wrong with it?

[Goatee]

I would be interested in this list, as this number has come up in several of your posts over the years, and I have not as of yet seen the list, nor can I find it on the internet.

Al doesn't want to be the one to produce the list

 

[Albion]

Well you see what the teaching of Sola Scriptura have led to: 30 000 different denominations that claim to be correct.

Why attribute that to Sola Scriptura? And how to you exonerate the various churches that split from each other before Sola Scriptura became an issue during the Reformation? Obviously, I'd say, there's something wrong with your theory, even if you do not care for the concept of 'Scripture Alone.'

And there are plenty of issues that divided those churches just as much as the ones you mentioned. Take the nature of God, for instance, which sent the Oriental Orthodox off into schism and the Church of the East (Nestorian) off in a different direction. The Filioque Controversy that led to the Great Schism which separated the majority Eastern Christians from Latin ones. Papal Supremacy. Images. etc.

All of that occurred long before the Reformation. But then came Bogomils, Cathars, Waldensians, Hussites, and more.

They too were pre-Reformation ... and pre-Sola Scriptura!

 

[Albion]

I would be interested in this list, as this number has come up in several of your posts over the years, and I have not as of yet seen the list, nor can I find it on the internet.

The comparison game is really a mess. It's David Barrett who compiled his list and got it generally accepted, even by the UN, I read somewhere. There aren't 33,000 Protestant denominations and no other researcher or encyclopedia comes even close to that number. That's because he counted every opinion group within a church body (Low Church Anglicans vs High Church Anglicans, for example) just as he also counted different rites under the Vatican and insisted that this was correct to do. But he also counted all sodalities and religious orders AND counted the same church as a different one if it was in another country (The RCC would, therefore be one church in the USA and a separate denomination in Canada).

In short, the 33,000 figure is bogus, but Catholics hold onto it like a kid with an ice cream cone since it sounds so good when posted against Protestants. But of course, the hundreds of Catholic and Orthodox churches--also insisted upon by Barrett--are conveniently ignored or even vehemently denied by them. There are 1-8000 Protestant denominations, depending on who is counting, and a few dozen to about a thousand or more Catholic and Orthodox ones. From my POV, that explodes the notion of there being only one Catholic Church, even if several dozen isn't as impressive as a few hundreds or a thousand.

Here, however, from Bible.ca, is a summary that gives some hint of the situation. There is much more if one wants to explore it.

Conclusion:

1. The Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches have no "high moral ground" upon which to walk when it comes to denominationalism. They are highly divided even within their own ranks.
2. If traditionalists claim there are 30,000 Protestant denominations, then apples to apples, there are 1712 traditionalist denominations. (410 Roman Catholic + 1302 Orthodox = 1712) An apples to apples comparison would look like this:

Table "Conclusion A"

Type

Number of denominations

Roman Catholic

410

Orthodox

1302

Protestant

8848

Independent

20,872

 

[beebert]

Why attribute that to Sola Scriptura? And how to you exonerate the various churches that split from each other before Sola Scriptura became an issue during the Reformation? Obviously, I'd say, there's something wrong with your theory, even if you do not care for the concept of 'Scripture Alone.'

And there are plenty of issues that divided those churches just as much as the ones you mentioned. Take the nature of God, for instance, which sent the Oriental Orthodox off into schism and the Church of the East (Nestorian) off in a different direction. The Filioque Controversy that led to the Great Schism which separated the majority Eastern Christians from Latin ones. Papal Supremacy. Images. etc.

All of that occurred long before the Reformation. But then came Bogomils, Cathars, Waldensians, Hussites, and more.

They too were pre-Reformation ... and pre-Sola Scriptura!

Yes they all were. And all those heresies came to existence because people interpreted scripture for themselves. The church managed to defeat them all because... The church is needed!

 

[Albion]

Yes they all were. And all those heresies came to existence because people interpreted scripture for themselves. The church managed to defeat them all because... The church is needed!

It hasn't managed to defeat Eastern Orthodoxy, from what I can tell. This represents the biggest schism in Christian history...and it was suffered by that church you're touting. As a matter of fact, there is no denomination/communion/church body in the whole world that has lost more members to split-offs than the Church of Rome.

 

[beebert]

It hasn't managed to defeat Eastern Orthodoxy, from what I can tell. This represents the biggest schism in Christian history...and it was suffered by that church you're touting. As a matter of fact, there is no denomination/communion/church body in the whole world that has lost more members to split-offs than the Church of Rome.

I believe the Orthodox Church is the true Church. Rome fell away from it. It is the greatest scandal in christian history, because The bishop of Rome was the most important bishop, and that bishop fell away.

 

[Albion]

I believe the Orthodox Church is the true Church. Rome fell away from it. It is the greatest scandal in christian history, because The bishop of Rome was the most important bishop, and that bishop fell away.

The rapid church-hopping is getting hard to chart.

 

[beebert]

The rapid church-hopping is getting hard to chart.

No I never said I believe the Catholic Church was the true church.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

A whole lot of words to say very little.....
How about follow this...Jesus said "where two or more are gatherered in my name there I shall be also"....that is good enough for me, and following the words of Jesus in the Bible of course. Matthew 18

Can't argue with that....................

How can RCs and Protestants reconcile

HandmaidenOfGod said: ↑
If the Roman Catholic Church were willing to drop the whole "Papal Supremacy/Infallibility" line, the filioque, and the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of the Theotokos, the EOC would be willing to come to the table.

.

 

[Erose]

The comparison game is really a mess. It's David Barrett who compiled his list and got it generally accepted, even by the UN, I read somewhere. There aren't 33,000 Protestant denominations and no other researcher or encyclopedia comes even close to that number. That's because he counted every opinion group within a church body (Low Church Anglicans vs High Church Anglicans, for example) just as he also counted different rites under the Vatican and insisted that this was correct to do. But he also counted all sodalities and religious orders AND counted the same church as a different one if it was in another country (The RCC would, therefore be one church in the USA and a separate denomination in Canada).

In short, the 33,000 figure is bogus, but Catholics hold onto it like a kid with an ice cream cone since it sounds so good when posted against Protestants. But of course, the hundreds of Catholic and Orthodox churches--also insisted upon by Barrett--are conveniently ignored or even vehemently denied by them. There are 1-8000 Protestant denominations, depending on who is counting, and a few dozen to about a thousand or more Catholic and Orthodox ones. From my POV, that explodes the notion of there being only one Catholic Church, even if several dozen isn't as impressive as a few hundreds or a thousand.

Here, however, from Bible.ca, is a summary that gives some hint of the situation. There is much more if one wants to explore it.

Conclusion:

1. The Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches have no "high moral ground" upon which to walk when it comes to denominationalism. They are highly divided even within their own ranks.
2. If traditionalists claim there are 30,000 Protestant denominations, then apples to apples, there are 1712 traditionalist denominations. (410 Roman Catholic + 1302 Orthodox = 1712) An apples to apples comparison would look like this:

Table "Conclusion A"

Type

Number of denominations

Roman Catholic

410

Orthodox

1302

Protestant

8848

Independent

20,872

So let me get this straight the argument is that every nation that has a Catholic Church is a denomination similar to the denomination's found in Protestantism? I would give you that I don't believe that there are 30 plus thousand Protestant denominations...unless you count all the non-denominational churches, I guess, which I would think one could question whether or not non-denominational churches are really Protestant to begin with or a totally different animal; but the Catholic national churches are still in communion with Rome, and still adhere to the same confessions of faith, and share clergy amongst themselves, which doesn't happen in Protestantism, as there is no centralized leadership.

I was hoping that you would provide a list that would make sense.

 

[Phil 1:21]

Have you heard what people like Piper and MacArthur say on the Eucharist(lord's supper)? It is, simply wrong, and had they been holding that view in the early church, they would have either been forced to recant that view or be excommunicated. Simple as that.

Your response pretty much proves my point...again. Thanks.

 

[prodromos]

The majority of them are independant churches, not rooted in any tradition but the private interpretations of the individuals who founded them. Apparently they could not find a church that agreed with them so they started their own.

 

[prodromos]

We understand the difference, but you need to understand that "Tradition" is only a theological theory,

In your opinion.

and one that has been widely abused in order to justify the invention of new doctrines that have no basis in Scripture.

Which doctrines do you speak of?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Have you heard what people like Piper and MacArthur say on the Eucharist(lord's supper)? It is, simply wrong, and had they been holding that view in the early church, they would have either been forced to recant that view or be excommunicated. Simple as that.

I seem to recall that the celebration of the eucharist differed from the EOC and RCC and played a part in the Schism of 1054.

Great Schism and effect on Christianity and Theology

"The major event that is often cited as the separation of the East and West is the Great Schism of 1054. Actually at the time it was seen as simply another temporary schism between the two regions. But this one never resolved as the two Churches drifted farther apart. Also, though the date seems to be an easy reference, it must be seen as wider political and theological context which lead to the division.............

The cardinal excommunicated the patriarch who, in turn, excommunicated the cardinal.
The main point of contention was the use of leavened bread during the celebration of Mass, according to MacMillan Publishing's...."

As far was Christanity's view on the Eucharist, will refrain from debating on that.
However, there is a sub board on GT devoted to that very topic for those interested:

Sacramental/Ordinance Theology
Sacramental/Ordinance Theolog

.

 

[Goatee]

Al is staunchly against all things Catholic and always like to post false things about the church.

Look at the Anglican Church

 

[Petros2015]

The main point of contention was the use of leavened bread during the celebration of Mass, according to MacMillan Publishing's...."

There were several issues of contention including this one. I think the main one was papal primacy, which came to a head when the he wanted to unilaterally alter the Creed without a Ecumenical Council. That was a deal breaker.

The ecclesiastical differences and theological disputes between the Greek East and Latin West pre-dated the formal rupture that occurred in 1054.[2][3][4] Prominent among these were the issues of the source of the Holy Spirit, whether leavened or unleavened bread should be used in the Eucharist,[a] the Bishop of Rome's claim to universal jurisdiction, and the place of the See of Constantinople in relation to the Pentarchy.

East–West Schism - Wikipedia

 

[Albion]

So let me get this straight the argument is that every nation that has a Catholic Church is a denomination similar to the denomination's found in Protestantism?

The survey comes to its bloated figures because it considers each denomination IN EACH COUNTRY where it is represented to be another denomination, plus a number of groups of opinions within any of them (like "High Church Anglicans" which term refers to Anglicans who favor a lot of ceremony, vestments, etc. but are not separate ), and agencies of denominations (like sodalities, religious orders, and so on). To make matters worse, that isn't done consistently (as I recall).

I would give you that I don't believe that there are 30 plus thousand Protestant denominations...unless you count all the non-denominational churches, I guess, which I would think one could question whether or not non-denominational churches are really Protestant to begin with or a totally different animal; but the Catholic national churches are still in communion with Rome, and still adhere to the same confessions of faith, and share clergy amongst themselves, which doesn't happen in Protestantism, as there is no centralized leadership.

Sure, but that issue (different rites) only scratches the surface of the matter.

I was hoping that you would provide a list that would make sense.

Me, too. And it probably is out there, but I could only find fragments or summaries when I looked yesterday.

But bear in mind that if you classify some thousands of churches that have almost nothing in common with each other as Protestant, you have also to count the Old Catholics, Liberal Catholics, SSPX, SSPV, and others as Catholic, too. That can't be winked away by pointing to different rites within the Church of Rome.

 

[Erose]

There were several issues of contention including this one. I think the main one was papal primacy, which came to a head when the he wanted to unilaterally alter the Creed without a Ecumenical Council. That was a deal breaker.

The ecclesiastical differences and theological disputes between the Greek East and Latin West pre-dated the formal rupture that occurred in 1054.[2][3][4] Prominent among these were the issues of the source of the Holy Spirit, whether leavened or unleavened bread should be used in the Eucharist,[a] the Bishop of Rome's claim to universal jurisdiction, and the place of the See of Constantinople in relation to the Pentarchy.

East–West Schism - Wikipedia

Or was it when the Patriarch assumed the title of Ecumenical Patriarch in an attempt to assume the mantle of the first?

Here is the problem, there is not one single theological disagreement that caused the Schism. It was all completely political. Now theological disagreements were used and still are used as excuses for not re-entering communion, but where not the reason.

 

[FenderTL5]

How about a wikipedia list?

It also separates some communities as being different denominations when they are in fact 'in communion." (Antiochian and Greek Orthodox for examples I'm familiar with)

 

[Fidelibus]

In short, the 33,000 figure is bogus, but Catholics hold onto it like a kid with an ice cream cone since it sounds so good when posted against Protestants.

It could be a bit inflated. However, would you be interested in doing a little experiment? If so, pick up a copy of the Yellow Pages that covers your area, and go to the "Churches" section. Count how many Protestant, non-Denominational, non-Catholic churches there are.... multiply that by all the Cities, Towns, Villages throughout the world. What kind of number do you think you'd come up with? A hundred? thousand? tens of thousands? That's not even including all the churches that meet in School gymnasiums, Homes, Garages, ect. that are not even listed.

After doing so, you may be surprised by the shear number of differnt Protestant/non-denominational/non-Catholic churches there are throughout the globe, all teaching their own differnt interpretation of scripture, all claiming their interpretation is inspired by the Holy Spirit. The next question would then be....... Which one of them is correct in their interpretation, and which of them is in error? Somebody has to be, for it is impossible for the Holy Spirit to create such confusion or dis-unity.


If you don't have a copy of the Yellow Pages, you could google "Churches" to get the same results.
If you don't have the time, provide me with the city where you preside and I would gladly look it up for you.


p.s. Could you please reveal the source of the list and number you posted.