Roe is overturned!

rusmeister

A Russified American Orthodox Chestertonian
Dec 9, 2005
10,394
5,011
Eastern Europe
Visit site
✟432,491.00
Country
Montenegro
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I hate to rain on the proverbial parade here, but I don't think this is necessarily the cause for celebration it should be.



Abortions will never go away. Period. The missed lesson from Prohibition, gun control, the War on Drugs, and many other well-meaning endeavors is that that making something illegal will only make it worse. Making abortion illegal will not make it go away any more than banning guns in major cities has made them safer (the American cities with the most restrictive gun control measures have the worst gun violence).

This will only galvanize and embolden the Radical Left. It will galvanize the Radical Right as well. It will also further divide the American people. It will invite more violence, hatred, and malintent from the Left against any who are remotely conservative and/or religious.

Instead, the best ways to prevent abortions from happening will be to do our job as the Church: help those in need. We should be supporting the womens shelters where some of those who are kicked out of their homes for being pregnant go for what little support they can get. I wish more Orthodox parishes, at the parish level, would "adopt" a single mother and provide her material support until at least a year past delivery. Providing proper sex education to teenager would help as well.
More importantly, repairing and strengthening the nuclear family while returning to Christ would fix everything.


El Salvador, one of few countries that has outright illegalized all abortions and the home of my ex-fiancee, has experienced some very funky side effects. Women who have babies that need surgeries while in the womb often can not get those procedures because if something goes wrong than the surgeon can be imprisoned under a false "performing and abortion" charge. Likewise, there's at least a hundred or so women who are serving prison sentences there for supposedly having an abortion when in fact they gave birth to stillborn babies and were accused of taking abortion pills or "willing" abortions.

Hi, E.C.!
I certainly agree with you that abortions will never go away. An intelligent man will understand that "if guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns", and that banning guns for the general citizenry will not change the fact that people will buy and use them illegally. Law is about what OUGHT to be in the state (nation). It is given that outlawing a thing does not make it magically go away, AND that illegal practice will increase, if only because what was already being done legally is now being done illegally. But what SHOULD a civilized society tolerate? Do we as Christians have any influence in that? If we don't, then we shut up and suck up whatever the state dishes out to us, and accept persecution when they outlaw the practice of our Faith.

But when you say making the practice illegal will "embolden the radical Left", I have to differ. If you mean, "It will require more boldness from them to do illegally what they did legally, then of course, I agree. But when it comes to "inviting more violence, hatred, and malintent" on us adult believers, then I say that drawing their fire away from the murder of little babies onto us adults is a good and noble thing, and is our duty, as long as we can. When we can't, if and when we have no political power, when voting truly holds only the value of Monopoly money, then as I said, we must accept suffering. But if we have power in the state, it is our duty to use that power for good and to defend the helpless among us from evildoers.

And none of this means that we must stop what we have already been doing, as you say, helping those in need. We have been, and are doing that. We do support, fund, and otherwise help programs assisting women in need. I support kicking the behinds of irresponsible men and pushing to hold sex as a thing to be found only in marriage, and marriage as a holy state not to be put asunder by men, starting with us in the Church (though even here, I find defenders of 'Orthodox divorce'). All of these things, including our own sins, play into abortion. But at least we ought to admit that our sins are sins, and repent of them, that is, outlaw them among ourselves. Murder should always be illegal, no matter how furious some people may become that they are forbidden to murder, and must do it illegally, in dark alleys, rather than openly and shamelessly in the light of day. This is one other good and necessary step that we must take, even if we are only fighting Tolkien's "Long defeat", and suffer a setback once again, several years down the road. In the meantime we will have saved hundreds of thousands of lives. Ask Rebecca Kiessling, whose mother wanted to abort her in 1969 after rape, but couldn't, because a more civilized America had laws against abortion. Now Rebecca, a lawyer, fights for the lives of children of rape, like herself.

And "proper sex education" to teenagers? There is only one kind. Don't do it till you get married, don't kill babies, don't pretend that sex is for pleasure and NOT for baby-making (the whole idea behind contraception). If you mean anything else, then the world has left its baggage in your mind and heart. THAT is what we ought to fight and push for in this Fallen world, insofar as we have any influence to do so, IN ADDITION to helping people in need, which many of us already do. If we have no influence, then we watch the world go to hell in a handbasket. I'm fighting so that my own kids will know what's right, even if they choose to do what is wrong. I've got divisions in my own family, my Orthodox BIL thinks PP is a benevolent organization, my older daughter thinks abortion "a right" despite my best efforts. We must start by acknowledging that evil is evil, and should never be legal.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,469
20,025
41
Earth
✟1,455,676.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
And "proper sex education" to teenagers? There is only one kind. Don't do it till you get married, don't kill babies, don't pretend that sex is for pleasure and NOT for baby-making (the whole idea behind contraception).

yep, and sex unites you to the other, which implies a lifetime commitment.
 
Upvote 0

rusmeister

A Russified American Orthodox Chestertonian
Dec 9, 2005
10,394
5,011
Eastern Europe
Visit site
✟432,491.00
Country
Montenegro
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
You can always count on @E.C. to rain on the parade.
I don’t agree. He’s been around longer than you have, and has generally been a good and reasonable poster.
 
Upvote 0

E.C.

Well-Known Member
Jan 12, 2007
13,746
1,267
✟134,199.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Hi, E.C.!
Hi, rusmeister!


But when you say making the practice illegal will "embolden the radical Left", I have to differ. If you mean, "It will require more boldness from them to do illegally what they did legally, then of course, I agree. But when it comes to "inviting more violence, hatred, and malintent" on us adult believers, then I say that drawing their fire away from the murder of little babies onto us adults is a good and noble thing, and is our duty, as long as we can. When we can't, if and when we have no political power, when voting truly holds only the value of Monopoly money, then as I said, we must accept suffering. But if we have power in the state, it is our duty to use that power for good and to defend the helpless among us from evildoers.
I think you misunderstand and perhaps I should have been clearer.

The Left now has a narrative to not only stay in power, but perhaps gain more of it. Is abortion a right? No. I don't think so, and I doubt anyone in this board thinks so. However, that's how they're going to spin it and stay in power bringing this country closer to Communism. We've seen in this pandemic that the Left does not indeed care about civil rights or any of the like that makes America American. The Left has successfully fooled the American people into thinking that abortion is the epitome of women's rights. It isn't. They also have people fooled into thinking that repealing Roe v Wade is the first step in a long process that ends in women having fewer rights than Islamic societies.


And none of this means that we must stop what we have already been doing, as you say, helping those in need. We have been, and are doing that. We do support, fund, and otherwise help programs assisting women in need. I support kicking the behinds of irresponsible men and pushing to hold sex as a thing to be found only in marriage, and marriage as a holy state not to be put asunder by men, starting with us in the Church (though even here, I find defenders of 'Orthodox divorce'). All of these things, including our own sins, play into abortion. But at least we ought to admit that our sins are sins, and repent of them, that is, outlaw them among ourselves. Murder should always be illegal, no matter how furious some people may become that they are forbidden to murder, and must do it illegally, in dark alleys, rather than openly and shamelessly in the light of day. This is one other good and necessary step that we must take, even if we are only fighting Tolkien's "Long defeat", and suffer a setback once again, several years down the road. In the meantime we will have saved hundreds of thousands of lives. Ask Rebecca Kiessling, whose mother wanted to abort her in 1969 after rape, but couldn't, because a more civilized America had laws against abortion. Now Rebecca, a lawyer, fights for the lives of children of rape, like herself.
Unfortunately we Christians, and especially Orthodox, don't effectively help people. Sure, we're decent at best when it comes to our own communities, but what about the outside world? We're against abortion sure, but rather than simply march at the March for Life, maybe we should support women's shelters in our neighborhoods. Or better yet, why doesn't each parish take someone in? There's plenty of young women out their who lose their familial support after ending up pregnant (whether by their own doing or not) and end up homeless. Why can't more parishes take that woman in and take care of her materially until she can get back on her feet? But no, we don't do that because we fear liability.



And "proper sex education" to teenagers? There is only one kind. Don't do it till you get married, don't kill babies, don't pretend that sex is for pleasure and NOT for baby-making (the whole idea behind contraception). If you mean anything else, then the world has left its baggage in your mind and heart. THAT is what we ought to fight and push for in this Fallen world, insofar as we have any influence to do so, IN ADDITION to helping people in need, which many of us already do. If we have no influence, then we watch the world go to hell in a handbasket. I'm fighting so that my own kids will know what's right, even if they choose to do what is wrong. I've got divisions in my own family, my Orthodox BIL thinks PP is a benevolent organization, my older daughter thinks abortion "a right" despite my best efforts. We must start by acknowledging that evil is evil, and should never be legal.
Basic sex ed basically means basic biology. There's A LOT of parts of the US that have such a puritanical view that not even the biological part of it gets taught. And, yeah, the part of not doing it until you're married needs to be taught as well. As the Orthodox Church, we are there. As a nation, we are not and we won't get their overnight, so we have to be patient and take it one step at a time. As for PP, minus the abortion part, it actually is a fairly benevolent organization.

Since you mention influence, if we Orthodox could get our crap together and quit dividing ourselves on ethnic lines than maybe we could have influence. But that would also involve many certain jurisdictions actually putting the faith forward and working with others instead of prioritizing the preservation of their ethnicity - which their grandkids won't identify with anyway.
 
Upvote 0

E.C.

Well-Known Member
Jan 12, 2007
13,746
1,267
✟134,199.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
You can always count on @E.C. to rain on the parade.
Ha! Hardly.

I'm simply a realist who thinks long term and learns from history.

I don’t agree. He’s been around longer than you have, and has generally been a good and reasonable poster.
Since 2007, pre-Wikonian Reform :cool:

One True Old Posters of the Genuine Ancient Way Baklavas Synod in Exile Abroad (I think that was the thing)
 
  • Like
Reactions: rusmeister
Upvote 0

rusmeister

A Russified American Orthodox Chestertonian
Dec 9, 2005
10,394
5,011
Eastern Europe
Visit site
✟432,491.00
Country
Montenegro
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Hi, rusmeister!



I think you misunderstand and perhaps I should have been clearer.

The Left now has a narrative to not only stay in power, but perhaps gain more of it. Is abortion a right? No. I don't think so, and I doubt anyone in this board thinks so. However, that's how they're going to spin it and stay in power bringing this country closer to Communism. We've seen in this pandemic that the Left does not indeed care about civil rights or any of the like that makes America American. The Left has successfully fooled the American people into thinking that abortion is the epitome of women's rights. It isn't. They also have people fooled into thinking that repealing Roe v Wade is the first step in a long process that ends in women having fewer rights than Islamic societies.



Unfortunately we Christians, and especially Orthodox, don't effectively help people. Sure, we're decent at best when it comes to our own communities, but what about the outside world? We're against abortion sure, but rather than simply march at the March for Life, maybe we should support women's shelters in our neighborhoods. Or better yet, why doesn't each parish take someone in? There's plenty of young women out their who lose their familial support after ending up pregnant (whether by their own doing or not) and end up homeless. Why can't more parishes take that woman in and take care of her materially until she can get back on her feet? But no, we don't do that because we fear liability.




Basic sex ed basically means basic biology. There's A LOT of parts of the US that have such a puritanical view that not even the biological part of it gets taught. And, yeah, the part of not doing it until you're married needs to be taught as well. As the Orthodox Church, we are there. As a nation, we are not and we won't get their overnight, so we have to be patient and take it one step at a time. As for PP, minus the abortion part, it actually is a fairly benevolent organization.

Since you mention influence, if we Orthodox could get our crap together and quit dividing ourselves on ethnic lines than maybe we could have influence. But that would also involve many certain jurisdictions actually putting the faith forward and working with others instead of prioritizing the preservation of their ethnicity - which their grandkids won't identify with anyway.

Hi again!
On your first point, of course I know the Left seeks more power. So does the Right, and politics is the effort of everyone to get their own political views imposed, to obtain power and convert it into policy. So, quite true. But you seem to imply from that a failure to compromise on this issue, to grant them what they want, will lead to them trying to push evil even further. I don’t agree, in that they are trying to push it further, anyway, regardless of whether we compromise or do not compromise. There can be no compromise, as on slavery. As Lincoln said, the nation must become all one thing or all the other, and though I think we will be defeated in the semi-long term (not counting the Second Coming), we must fight the long defeat, and strive, wherever we do in fact have power and influence, to maintain the most just and good state of affairs for the public good as we can. So, no, I do not fear that doing the right thing will infuriate them. I know it will. I think it good to frustrate would-be murderers who have deceived themselves into thinking it is not murder. It would be better to convert them, and so we must employ all compassion at our disposal, but we must insist that they are wrong and that their position is evil, in the hopes that enough people may realize that to have a change of heart. The greater evil is in compromising, in pretending that any form of child-murder is acceptable.

On your second point, aid Christians provide, I think you are expressing your local experience, which may no doubt be true. Perhaps the parishes in your experience really do do nothing to help people in need. I know that my mother was turned away by the worldliness of the Greek parish down the street from her home, where she almost became Orthodox before turning to Islam under the influence of a kind immigrant chiropractor who is deceived in that religion. Few would argue against the proposition that more individuals and parishes could do more. But my experience is different. We have, at my own parish, now being torn apart by conflict, collections and ministries for both prisoners and people in need, including single mothers. There are large numbers of active individuals, groups and centers engaged in precisely the help you call for.
But even where there is no help, there is no scenario where we can say, “Well, in that case, it’s OK to kill the baby.”, or compromise on whether abortion ought to be tolerated. And my own stand is that that help starts at the wrong end, anyway, like putting buckets under a leak. I would fix the leak itself, but that requires, at least in our own churches among our own brethren for starters, stigmatizing divorce, cohabitation, and everything that makes single mothers even possible among us. We tolerate things that we shouldn't. We do not exhort our brothers and sisters in Christ to sexual faithfulness. We accept their justifications and excuses not to carry crosses, and pretend to ourselves that THAT is compassionate, though it is the road that leads to abortion. If we could uphold the Christian standard in our own lives and our own churches, we would distinguish ourselves from the world, and might even begin to influence it.

On PP, I think we come to the point where we must cross swords. The organization stands on money, not good intentions. It’s money is made ENTIRELY (99%+) from abortion and they get money both from those seeking abortions and the government. Its history is one of eugenics and racism. Its only plan is that there should be no parenthood. Have you ever heard of Abby Johnson? She was a PP clinic director for 8 years and oversaw over 22,000 abortions personally. Watch the movie “Unplanned” (2019). It’s her true story. Yes, you will be able to point out a few cosmetic offerings to help women that PP ostensibly has, but if you try to seriously pursue help in actually HAVING a child through PP, you will be turned away. Local PRCs do more than PP with tiny fractions of PP’s massive federally-funded budget. So, no, you cannot defend PP. I say that you just haven’t learned about it yet, heard anything but its own propaganda. You’d better fold on that point quickly. You cannot win. PP is an evil organization through and through, though kind people of good intentions no doubt work there, including one of my own nieces.

How on earth do you think that basic biology is not taught? If you mean that people are not taught that the fetus is a living human child, then I can agree, but you seem to think people do not learn that sexual intercourse naturally results in pregnancy. That is absurd. Should their parents fail them, should the schools not teach anything about the reproductive system (something the schools aggressively push in modern “sex education”), then a child’s friends IMMEDIATELY tell them, pointing out the “need” for condoms and “birth control”. I think you will have to search very far and very wide before you could find a single child over 14 who is wholly unaware of where babies come from. Even here in Russia, it is impossible to hide that basic biology.

I DO agree with you on the ethnic question in the US, in particular. My only counter-observation would be that it seems that the “ethnic” is now being increasingly tied to one of the two sides of worldliness - either the materialist politics of the left, connecting sexual anarchy, “green” earth-worship, charity as the province of the government rather than the individual and local church, or the hyperdox policies of the right, external piety over internal, form over essence, and over here, the resurgence of Stalinism and nationalism as things to be promoted in the Church. In the Greek/Russian split, I’d note that the tendencies, both in hierarchal policies and among many on the ground level of the laity, the Greeks tend to fall more into the former, and the Russians into the latter.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

SamanthaAnastasia

Just a library lady
Dec 21, 2018
1,266
1,279
Earth
✟166,601.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Hi again!
On your first point, of course I know the Left seeks more power. So does the Right, and politics is the effort of everyone to get their own political views imposed, to obtain power and convert it into policy. So, quite true. But you seem to imply from that a failure to compromise on this issue, to grant them what they want, will lead to them trying to push evil even further. I don’t agree, in that they are trying to push it further, anyway, regardless of whether we compromise or do not compromise. There can be no compromise, as on slavery. As Lincoln said, the nation must become all one thing or all the other, and though I think we will be defeated in the semi-long term (not counting the Second Coming), we must fight the long defeat, and strive, wherever we do in fact have power and influence, to maintain the most just and good state of affairs for the public good as we can. So, no, I do not fear that doing the right thing will infuriate them. I know it will. I think it good to frustrate would-be murderers who have deceived themselves into thinking it is not murder. It would be better to convert them, and so we must employ all compassion at our disposal, but we must insist that they are wrong and that their position is evil, in the hopes that enough people may realize that to have a change of heart. The greater evil is in compromising, in pretending that any form of child-murder is acceptable.

On your second point, aid Christians provide, I think you are expressing your local experience, which may no doubt be true. Perhaps the parishes in your experience really do do nothing to help people in need. I know that my mother was turned away by the worldliness of the Greek parish down the street from her home, where she almost became Orthodox before turning to Islam under the influence of a kind immigrant chiropractor who is deceived in that religion. Few would argue against the proposition that more individuals and parishes could do more. But my experience is different. We have, at my own parish, now being torn apart by conflict, collections and ministries for both prisoners and people in need, including single mothers. There are large numbers of active individuals, groups and centers engaged in precisely the help you call for.
But even where there is no help, there is no scenario where we can say, “Well, in that case, it’s OK to kill the baby.”, or compromise on whether abortion ought to be tolerated. And my own stand is that that help starts at the wrong end, anyway, like putting buckets under a leak. I would fix the leak itself, but that requires, at least in our own churches among our own brethren for starters, stigmatizing divorce, cohabitation, and everything that makes single mothers even possible among us. We tolerate things that we shouldn't. We do not exhort our brothers and sisters in Christ to sexual faithfulness. We accept their justifications and excuses not to carry crosses, and pretend to ourselves that THAT is compassionate, though it is the road that leads to abortion. If we could uphold the Christian standard in our own lives and our own churches, we would distinguish ourselves from the world, and might even begin to influence it.

On PP, I think we come to the point where we must cross swords. The organization stands on money, not good intentions. It’s money is made ENTIRELY (99%+) from abortion and they get money both from those seeking abortions and the government. Its history is one of eugenics and racism. Its only plan is that there should be no parenthood. Have you ever heard of Abby Johnson? She was a PP clinic director for 8 years and oversaw over 22,000 abortions personally. Watch the movie “Unplanned” (2019). It’s her true story. Yes, you will be able to point out a few cosmetic offerings to help women that PP ostensibly has, but if you try to seriously pursue help in actually HAVING a child through PP, you will be turned away. Local PRCs do more than PP with tiny fractions of PP’s massive federally-funded budget. So, no, you cannot defend PP. I say that you just haven’t learned about it yet, heard anything but its own propaganda. You’d better fold on that point quickly. You cannot win. PP is an evil organization through and through, though kind people of good intentions no doubt work there, including one of my own nieces.

How on earth do you think that basic biology is not taught? If you mean that people are not taught that the fetus is a living human child, then I can agree, but you seem to think people do not learn that sexual intercourse naturally results in pregnancy. That is absurd. Should their parents fail them, should the schools not teach anything about the reproductive system (something the schools aggressively push in modern “sex education”), then a child’s friends IMMEDIATELY tell them, pointing out the “need” for condoms and “birth control”. I think you will have to search very far and very wide before you could find a single child over 14 who is wholly unaware of where babies come from. Even here in Russia, it is impossible to hide that basic biology.

I DO agree with you on the ethnic question in the US, in particular. My only counter-observation would be that it seems that the “ethnic” is now being increasingly tied to one of the two sides of worldliness - either the materialist politics of the left, connecting sexual anarchy, “green” earth-worship, charity as the province of the government rather than the individual and local church, or the hyperdox policies of the right, external piety over internal, form over essence, and over here, the resurgence of Stalinism and nationalism as things to be promoted in the Church. In the Greek/Russian split, I’d note that the tendencies, both in hierarchal policies and among many on the ground level of the laity, the Greeks tend to fall more into the former, and the Russians into the latter.
Could I ask something since you live in Russia?

Russia has a far higher rate of abortions compared to the US (rate of abortions to population)
(I’m not using China as an example here as it is no surprise it is the highest country with abortion because of the CCP, no Christian background, and a variety of different reasons).
How can we look at Russia as a good example when they do that?
“In terms of the total numbers in the 21st century, in 2009 China reported that it had over 13 million abortions,[4] out of a population of 1.3 billion, compared to the 1.2 million abortions in Russia,[5] out of a population of 143 million people.”
“According to data from the United Nations in 2010, Russia had the highest rates of abortion per woman of reproduction. Results from the abortion rates of China and Russia were compared and out of a population of 1.3 billion people, China only reported 13 million abortions, a huge difference when contrasted to the population in Russia of 143 million people with 1.2 million abortions.[44]
(Abortion in Russia - Wikipedia)
List of countries by abortion statistics - Wikipedia



I just think that it would be good for sex education be like a medical textbook. Even showing graphic pictures of unsafe sex of what happens when someone has sex outside of marriage. It’s educational.
 
Upvote 0

coffee4u

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2018
5,005
2,817
Australia
✟157,641.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
except that abortion isn’t illegal. it’s up to the states and their voters to decide. so I fail to see the comparison.

At least now States that want it illegal can make it so. I am watching to see what happens, hoping the abortion rate will go down for you all.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

rusmeister

A Russified American Orthodox Chestertonian
Dec 9, 2005
10,394
5,011
Eastern Europe
Visit site
✟432,491.00
Country
Montenegro
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Could I ask something since you live in Russia?

Russia has a far higher rate of abortions compared to the US (rate of abortions to population)
(I’m not using China as an example here as it is no surprise it is the highest country with abortion because of the CCP, no Christian background, and a variety of different reasons).
How can we look at Russia as a good example when they do that?
“In terms of the total numbers in the 21st century, in 2009 China reported that it had over 13 million abortions,[4] out of a population of 1.3 billion, compared to the 1.2 million abortions in Russia,[5] out of a population of 143 million people.”
“According to data from the United Nations in 2010, Russia had the highest rates of abortion per woman of reproduction. Results from the abortion rates of China and Russia were compared and out of a population of 1.3 billion people, China only reported 13 million abortions, a huge difference when contrasted to the population in Russia of 143 million people with 1.2 million abortions.[44]
(Abortion in Russia - Wikipedia)
List of countries by abortion statistics - Wikipedia


I just think that it would be good for sex education be like a medical textbook. Even showing graphic pictures of unsafe sex of what happens when someone has sex outside of marriage. It’s educational.

I wouldn't even begin to pretend that Russia sets a good example; I don't see Russia as an especially Christian nation. The only thing Russia has going for it is that the Church has been (temporarily) given a higher place in terms of government recognition. But with less than 5%, as little as 2% of the population "churched", it's not like Russia has had a Great Awakening.

All of our language has gone wrong, speaking of "sex" is wrong usage, and "safe sex" is a complete lie. There is no such thing. Sexual intercourse is like using nuclear fission to start a reaction; it is by definition not "safe"; its natural aim is to produce human life.
And who is doing the "education"? The government (public) schools? That is what the government considers to be education. At most they can teach the mechanical minus the spiritual,, moral, and ethical. The government cannot tell us the truth about marriage and sexual relations and is now controlled by people who wish to pervert those things. Your efforts to conduct education in that system are certain to be similarly perverted. The schools here are our enemy, not our friend. They work for the Prince of this world.

But even without schooling people know the mechanical aspects in general. The Blessed Joseph was minded to put away his Betrothed when he found her to be with child precisely because he knew the mechanics.
 
Upvote 0

SamanthaAnastasia

Just a library lady
Dec 21, 2018
1,266
1,279
Earth
✟166,601.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
I wouldn't even begin to pretend that Russia sets a good example; I don't see Russia as an especially Christian nation. The only thing Russia has going for it is that the Church has been (temporarily) given a higher place in terms of government recognition. But with less than 5%, as little as 2% of the population "churched", it's not like Russia has had a Great Awakening.

All of our language has gone wrong, speaking of "sex" is wrong usage, and "safe sex" is a complete lie. There is no such thing. Sexual intercourse is like using nuclear fission to start a reaction; it is by definition not "safe"; its natural aim is to produce human life.
And who is doing the "education"? The government (public) schools? That is what the government considers to be education. At most they can teach the mechanical minus the spiritual,, moral, and ethical. The government cannot tell us the truth about marriage and sexual relations and is now controlled by people who wish to pervert those things. Your efforts to conduct education in that system are certain to be similarly perverted. The schools here are our enemy, not our friend. They work for the Prince of this world.

But even without schooling people know the mechanical aspects in general. The Blessed Joseph was minded to put away his Betrothed when he found her to be with child precisely because he knew the mechanics.
I see. Thank you for answering my question about Russia.

with your safe sex statements though…that’s why I said “unsafe sex when someone has sex outside of marriage” meaning there is no safe sex (as adultery exists).
I think that using only medical information; this also includes graphic images of what the consequences of sex from childbirth (a thing of beauty) to STIs (a thing of horror) should be on a large screen projector.
And I’m probably going to get some strange looks but the probability that the younger this is done, the better. As the images of dangerous consequences will be imbedded.

Now, that’s just the public education aspect (without the religious morality). Any religious moral part can be taught at home.

See, I’m not sure I even want public school to teach any sort of Christianity. The reason is because of the possibility of erm...how should I say politely? Heresy or heterodoxy?
 
Upvote 0

rusmeister

A Russified American Orthodox Chestertonian
Dec 9, 2005
10,394
5,011
Eastern Europe
Visit site
✟432,491.00
Country
Montenegro
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I see. Thank you for answering my question about Russia.

with your safe sex statements though…that’s why I said “unsafe sex when someone has sex outside of marriage” meaning there is no safe sex (as adultery exists).
I think that using only medical information; this also includes graphic images of what the consequences of sex from childbirth (a thing of beauty) to STIs (a thing of horror) should be on a large screen projector.
And I’m probably going to get some strange looks but the probability that the younger this is done, the better. As the images of dangerous consequences will be imbedded.

Now, that’s just the public education aspect (without the religious morality). Any religious moral part can be taught at home.

See, I’m not sure I even want public school to teach any sort of Christianity. The reason is because of the possibility of erm...how should I say politely? Heresy or heterodoxy?

I don't think we really disagree, but of course, an Orthodox couple might still think in terms of "safe sex" (which is contrary to Orthodox understandings, period) in terms of contraception (un-Orthodox) or other practices designed to get the pleasure of the act while avoiding the conception of children (also un-Orthodox). The trouble is, so much thought of the world is prevalent among Orthodox believers, who think it consistent with Orthodox teaching. There are many things that modern believers would now challenge and deny in the understandings of the fathers.

Public education is fundamentally immoral. It is the education of the state, determinedly opposed to the Orthodox understanding of things. You cannot expect a public school to "teach Christianity". The system is controlled by the Prince of this world. There IS no religious moral "part". The religious and moral is intrinsic to the whole, and must not be separated from it. So the bad news - Orthodox must reject public education altogether. I can still see an Orthodox teacher employed in the system, but he (or she) must understand that he is working in the enemy's camp, exactly as a POW trying to subvert enemy plans. I speak as an expert, as one who knows far more than the average citizen about the schools. (Ask Gurney whether he has found me right or wrong.) But most people don't want to hear the truth about the schools, because the truth demands personal sacrifice from them, and it is more comfortable to believe lies and well-meaning falsehoods that dispense with such sacrifice.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Justin-H.S.

Member
May 8, 2020
1,400
1,238
The Shire
✟115,626.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Hardly ever see legit Orthodox processions in the US for something other than Pascha. Proud of these zoomer Protestants going to bat for the babies, outnumbered.
2F7B58BD-3EF9-4557-8C22-F68BCB4F68F7.jpeg
 
  • Like
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,469
20,025
41
Earth
✟1,455,676.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Hardly ever see legit Orthodox processions in the US for something other than Pascha. Proud of these zoomer Protestants going to bat for the babies, outnumbered.
View attachment 317483

well, the Orthodox in NYC are known for their public protests outside of Planned Parenthood and other abortion clinics.
 
Upvote 0

LizaMarie

Newbie
Jan 17, 2015
1,201
921
✟141,386.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I hate to rain on the proverbial parade here, but I don't think this is necessarily the cause for celebration it should be.



Abortions will never go away. Period. The missed lesson from Prohibition, gun control, the War on Drugs, and many other well-meaning endeavors is that that making something illegal will only make it worse. Making abortion illegal will not make it go away any more than banning guns in major cities has made them safer (the American cities with the most restrictive gun control measures have the worst gun violence).

This will only galvanize and embolden the Radical Left. It will galvanize the Radical Right as well. It will also further divide the American people. It will invite more violence, hatred, and malintent from the Left against any who are remotely conservative and/or religious.

Instead, the best ways to prevent abortions from happening will be to do our job as the Church: help those in need. We should be supporting the womens shelters where some of those who are kicked out of their homes for being pregnant go for what little support they can get. I wish more Orthodox parishes, at the parish level, would "adopt" a single mother and provide her material support until at least a year past delivery. Providing proper sex education to teenager would help as well.
More importantly, repairing and strengthening the nuclear family while returning to Christ would fix everything.


El Salvador, one of few countries that has outright illegalized all abortions and the home of my ex-fiancee, has experienced some very funky side effects. Women who have babies that need surgeries while in the womb often can not get those procedures because if something goes wrong than the surgeon can be imprisoned under a false "performing and abortion" charge. Likewise, there's at least a hundred or so women who are serving prison sentences there for supposedly having an abortion when in fact they gave birth to stillborn babies and were accused of taking abortion pills or "willing" abortions.
I'm pro-life and I've prayed for this decision but you make some very valid points. I agree with you that will definitely embolden and galvanize the radical left. Churches will have to step up and care for women in need, and the states will have to help too, parental leave, etc.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,469
20,025
41
Earth
✟1,455,676.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I'm pro-life and I've prayed for this decision but you make some very valid points. I agree with you that will definitely embolden and galvanize the radical left. Churches will have to step up and care for women in need, and the states will have to help too, parental leave, etc.

yep
 
Upvote 0