ROCOR vs OCA

[~Anastasia~]

yeah, Elder Ephraim's mission here in the US is solely for the Orthodox, and he often follows the Athonite way of doing things and his teacher, Elder Joseph the hesychast. as another example, catechumens depart at catechumens depart in the Liturgy.

I've often seen the requirement for catechumens to remain in the Narthex during the Liturgy. Do they have to depart from the Narthex as well (and be completely barred from the Liturgy of the Faithful), or are they allowed to observe at all?

That IS old-fashioned, isn't it?

 

[ArmyMatt]

I've often seen the requirement for catechumens to remain in the Narthex during the Liturgy. Do they have to depart from the Narthex as well (and be completely barred from the Liturgy of the Faithful), or are they allowed to observe at all?

That IS old-fashioned, isn't it?

they do to the narthex. yeah, it is old fashioned, but remember that Gerunda's monasteries are here to strengthen the faithful, so those faithful can go get the catechumens and receive them into the Church.

 

[~Anastasia~]

they do to the narthex. yeah, it is old fashioned, but remember that Gerunda's monasteries are here to strengthen the faithful, so those faithful can go get the catechumens and receive them into the Church.

Oh, I don't meant it as a criticism. I was just curious. I never was able to visit a monastery as a catechumen anyway. And I very much appreciate that monasteries exist to strengthen the faithful!

Thanks for the reply.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Oh, and what I meant as being particularly "old-fashioned" is if the catechumen were barred from observing the Liturgy of the Faithful at all. I know it was done that way in the early Church, and was told it was to protect the secrets of the Eucharist (and prevent misunderstanding) and the Creed.

I can understand catechumen being sent to the Narthex, or being made to stay in the Narthex the entire time, if that is the rule. But I would have been surprised to see them completely ejected from the second half of the Liturgy altogether.

 

[ArmyMatt]

oh it's no problem, Elder Ephraim gets a lot of flack for how strict he is.

 

[~Anastasia~]

oh it's no problem, Elder Ephraim gets a lot of flack for how strict he is.

I was surprised when I visited a women's monastery under him, and the sisters were not allowed to be with us in the trapeza. I would have enjoyed it if they could be. But probably it was for their sakes they were not.

Monasteries are MEANT to be strict, aren't they? I would think that someone who had decided to embrace a monastic calling would expect and prefer a certain degree of strictness? But I probably don't know what I'm talking about at all, in terms of what kind of strictness, etc.

 

[ArmyMatt]

yeah, that is how a lot of the more traditional monasteries because when you eat, you are supposed to be listening to lives of the saints and praying. Jordanville does it too.

 

[~Anastasia~]

yeah, that is how a lot of the more traditional monasteries because when you eat, you are supposed to be listening to lives of the saints and praying. Jordanville does it too.

But I wanted to hear the reading too.

It's ok though. We didn't have much time to socialize during the day, so we did that during meals instead (me and the other ladies visiting, not the sisters).

 

[E.C.]

So my husband and I are enjoying a beautiful vacation, and found a place that we would love to buy. We probably won't do it, but it is tempting. That said, we looked up Orthodox churches and found one about 45 minutes away. It's a ROCOR church. We haven't visited yet, but it'd be the primary option should we move here.

I've heard that ROCOR and the OCA were not in full communion a few years ago. That is no longer the case, correct? Also, I've heard that it is more Traditional. I've heard of cases where some converts were chrismated, but had to be baptized when they became ROCOR. I'm not sure if that was true, or if it is no longer true?

Are any of you ROCOR? Do you know how it differs from the OCA / Greek / Antiochian churches?

Thanks!

Home was an OCA parish for almost a decade.

Currently I'm attending the only ROCOR parish in Hawaii on Oahu. The other parish is Greek and I prefer coming here because there's more English and they're more social than the Greeks. The Greek parish here was so unwelcome that I had one cup of coffee after Liturgy and left for the ROCOR for coffee hour. The only other churches in the state are two OCA missions on Big Island.

Truth be told, this parish has changed my opinion of the ROCOR as a whole. Back home, the ROCOR cathedral in Seattle is nicknamed "Little Moscow" because the Liturgy is at least 95% Slavonic, the people speak almost only Russian, the homily is in Russian, their monthly newsletter is in Russian, the anouncements are in Russian, prayer of absolution after confession is in Slavonic, and, all women shall have their heads covered. Fr. Tryphon's monastery, a mere ferry ride and half hour drive away, is open to almost anyone with a pulse. They worship exclusively in English and aren't considered a real monastery by the people from their own cathedral in Seattle because of it (most pilgrims are either Copts, Ethiopians or college students). Head coverings are prefered, but if you didn't know than no biggy.

Down here in Hawaii, the female head covering is about 50/50, the church itself is very small, yet what they lack in size they make up for in hospitality. The Liturgy is about 70% English and the most Slavonic, other than a long reading, is when one parishioner reads something from the Psalter while the clergy are having their Communion. Confession after Saturday Vespers clears you for a Sunday communion, but extenuating circumstances are always taken into account.

oh it's no problem, Elder Ephraim gets a lot of flack for how strict he is.

Well, when you want to be in the Athonite monastic tradition you kind of have to go full Athonite. Perhaps Fr Ephraim's monasteries are the closest one can get without being on Mt. Athos.

"Athos without the jetlag!"

 

[gzt]

Yeah, in my experience, if you're in a major city where there are enough options so people can self-sort, the ROCOR parish becomes the Russian emigre parish with all that entails. Which is fine (and the Greek parish becomes the Greek parish - again, this is fine). This is fine because there are enough people around and enough options around that, you know, if you just don't understand the English that great and there are enough people for there to be a parish in your language without consigning the English speakers to nothing, why not?! The dynamics are a little different when there's enough for two or more parishes. What sometimes happens is one become the ethnic parish and one becomes the "everybody else" parish. When there's one parish, the one parish is either a "United Nations" parish or an ethnic parish - if it's ethnic it will die soon.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Yeah, in my experience, if you're in a major city where there are enough options so people can self-sort, the ROCOR parish becomes the Russian emigre parish with all that entails. Which is fine (and the Greek parish becomes the Greek parish - again, this is fine). This is fine because there are enough people around and enough options around that, you know, if you just don't understand the English that great and there are enough people for there to be a parish in your language without consigning the English speakers to nothing, why not?! The dynamics are a little different when there's enough for two or more parishes. What sometimes happens is one become the ethnic parish and one becomes the "everybody else" parish. When there's one parish, the one parish is either a "United Nations" parish or an ethnic parish - if it's ethnic it will die soon.

We are not a major city, but do have two local parishes.

Essentially that is what has happened. The Greek parish is fairly ethnic, and it is where families who are Russian, Ukranian, Romanian, and other ethnicities tend to come as well. Our Liturgy is about half/half Greek and English, though most will be heard in both languages either during the Liturgy or from week to week, with the exception that the singing is usually mostly Greek and the homily and Gospel are always in English. The Lord's Prayer is said in the languages of everyone present (generally Greek, English, Russian, Romanian, Ukranian, Spanish, and sometimes a few others).

The other parish is Antiochian, and was actually started by some Greeks who wanted the service fully in English. It seems the parish is mostly converts, and mostly American-born. I don't see much of any ethnic influence at all when I visit there. They sing The Lord-have-mercy's in four languages - English, Greek, I think Slavonic, and the other I am not sure (some Arabic language?). But everything else seems to be in English.

Both parishes have convert American-born priests. But the Greek parish gets more frequent visits from ethnic Greek priests.

 

[All4Christ]

Yeah, in my experience, if you're in a major city where there are enough options so people can self-sort, the ROCOR parish becomes the Russian emigre parish with all that entails. Which is fine (and the Greek parish becomes the Greek parish - again, this is fine). This is fine because there are enough people around and enough options around that, you know, if you just don't understand the English that great and there are enough people for there to be a parish in your language without consigning the English speakers to nothing, why not?! The dynamics are a little different when there's enough for two or more parishes. What sometimes happens is one become the ethnic parish and one becomes the "everybody else" parish. When there's one parish, the one parish is either a "United Nations" parish or an ethnic parish - if it's ethnic it will die soon.

I know this one was created because of Russian Immigrants, but it sounds like it is at least somewhat mixed now. I guess we will see when we visit!

It's pretty crazy to me that there are so many Orthodox Churches here in Pennsylvania (in my small town, there are 5 within a half hour, and more within an hour), yet there are so few in Maine! There are 0 OCA churches, and 0 Antiochian churches in Maine. Most Orthodox churches seem to be started because of ethnic communities there, though I am thankful that there are Orthodox churches of any kind there! It seems like there are 3 jurisdictions there - ROCOR, Greek and Serbian - and very few of them compared to some other areas.

 

[nutroll]

I would definitely check out the ROCOR church (though as a ROCOR deacon, I might be slightly biased...). Sometimes the ROCOR church in an area is the least ethnic and can even be entirely in English. Sometimes it is less strict than another church. Sometimes the people are friendlier. ROCOR churches will usually insist on weekly confession if you are communing weekly, though as my priest puts it if you bathe regularly, baths go more quickly and easily. ROCOR churches will usually ask that women cover their heads (although many of them will only insist on that when approaching the chalice). My parish only really uses Slavonic when something is repeated so that people hear it in both languages, the people are very warm and welcoming, and our priest has very good pastoral sense. Every parish is different, but having been in a ROCOR parish now for about 6 years, I would say don't shy away from at least checking it out. It could be the best parish ever!

 

[nutroll]

Do you know what the Rule of Communion and Confession is? I thought it might be confession, but the website says they have confession after vigil, not before.

In my experience, what this usually means is that Canons for Holy Communion with an Akathist either to the Mother of God, or to the Lord. The expectation is that the Order of Preparation for Holy Communion would be done at home, because the second half (the pre-communion prayers) would usually be said the morning that you are receiving rather than the day before. Some parishes will do the Canons for Holy Communion at the church so that people can come and participate in the preparation. All clergy are expected to do the full rule of preparation, so why not do it at the church and let others join in if they feel so inclined.

 

[All4Christ]

I would definitely check out the ROCOR church (though as a ROCOR deacon, I might be slightly biased...). Sometimes the ROCOR church in an area is the least ethnic and can even be entirely in English. Sometimes it is less strict than another church. Sometimes the people are friendlier. ROCOR churches will usually insist on weekly confession if you are communing weekly, though as my priest puts it if you bathe regularly, baths go more quickly and easily. ROCOR churches will usually ask that women cover their heads (although many of them will only insist on that when approaching the chalice). My parish only really uses Slavonic when something is repeated so that people hear it in both languages, the people are very warm and welcoming, and our priest has very good pastoral sense. Every parish is different, but having been in a ROCOR parish now for about 6 years, I would say don't shy away from at least checking it out. It could be the best parish ever!

I think the part I'm most concerned about is the amount of Slavonic, as this sounds like Divine Liturgy has a significant amount of that. I don't have so much difficulty for myself, as I do know the services, but I am not sure how easy it will be for young children to pick up the meaning of the various parts of the liturgy when it is spoken in Slavonic.

The website does say that the vigil is primarily English, but that Divine Liturgy is a combination. I'm a pretty big proponent of liturgy being primarily in the vernacular, not in another language. I can't say for sure how much is in Slavonic though. We need to come some Sunday to experience it ourselves.

My husband doesn't have as much difficulty for himself, as his family is Slavonic and grew up in a Carpatho-Rusyn parish, primarily comprised of an Slavic emigrant community. He grew up hearing the Divine Liturgy in Slavonic - though his family eventually moved to a parish that used English instead (for the sake of the kids). If we do go there, I will be studying up on Church Slavonic, as I really want to understand all parts of the service! I'm glad my first parish as a convert uses English though. It'd be harder learning about Orthodoxy if the services were in another language.

The website does say that all women and girls 9 years and older must wear headcoverings. While I like that my current parish encourages it, but doesn't require it - I personally wear a head covering often, so that is an easy switch for me. Most of the time at my current parish, girls younger than teenagers don't wear headcoverings.

Another big change will be weekly vigils instead of vespers! And of course, weekly Confession is a change - but probably a good change. I hope there will be a choir as well I am glad the music and chants are similar.

Your parish sounds like a great community! I'm glad to hear about your experience. I haven't talked to many from ROCOR parishes, as there aren't any currently near me.

If we do move there, I'm guessing it definitely would be the ROCOR church, if for no other reason that the next church is twice as far (over an hour vs a bit over 30 minutes), but I definitely would like a good community of faithful Orthodox Christians. That is the most important for us. Raising our family in a strong Orthodox community will be critical, and is an important part of our decision for where we live!

 

[ArmyMatt]

Well, when you want to be in the Athonite monastic tradition you kind of have to go full Athonite. Perhaps Fr Ephraim's monasteries are the closest one can get without being on Mt. Athos.

indeed, that's why his monasteries always tell pilgrims to confess to their spiritual father before coming.

 

[Virgil the Roman]

I admire the more old-fashioned atmosphere and 'traditional' practises with respect to Rocor. I've been heavily considering moving close to a Rocor parish if I end up converting; probably near one of their monasteries: primarily Holy Cross in WV. I'm also leaning here as it is a newer parish that is seems to not be in demographic decline. I'm trying to avoid such as I'd encountered in Western PA. There were only old folks and really young children; no one in between or in their 20s or 30s; that's not a good sign at all for a parish that desires health and vitality.

 

[All4Christ]

So I've been concerned about whether there would be a good choir at the church in Maine (I really love singing in the choir and love the Russian style of choral chant). A good choir (or at least in tune choir ) is really important to me, as I'm very distracted when there is music out of tune (my ear just catches onto that too much), and as I love singing in the choir. Maybe it shouldn't be as important as it is, but it is a big relief for me to hear that.

I just found out that Orthodox Christian Recorded Books is led by the son of the priest at that parish, and an ensemble from that parish sings all the choral music you can download and purchase from the site. Pretty cool I listen to those MP3s already!

 

[All4Christ]

I admire the more old-fashioned atmosphere and 'traditional' practises with respect to Rocor. I've been heavily considering moving close to a Rocor parish if I end up converting; probably near one of their monasteries: primarily Holy Cross in WV. I'm also leaning here as it is a newer parish that is seems to not be in demographic decline. I'm trying to avoid such as I'd encountered in Western PA. There were only old folks and really young children; no one in between or in their 20s or 30s; that's not a good sign at all for a parish that desires health and vitality.

It definitely has it's appeal to me as well to be more traditional. My current parish has a good balance, but I know some of the parishes in the New England area are reputed to be more liberal. I am much more comfortable with a traditional church, as that is something that helped bring me to Orthodoxy. I agree though - having a mixture of ages is very important! If you ever move to Central PA, let me know. I know some really good parishes here, my own included .

 

[ArmyMatt]

I've been heavily considering moving close to a Rocor parish if I end up converting; probably near one of their monasteries: primarily Holy Cross in WV.

that would be worthwhile, that place is amazing, and some of the monks there are friends from my OCF days. and there is a parish just down the road that is pretty active as well.