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Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth

Dave G.

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There is not even one verse in the Bible that shows a pre or mid-tribulation rapture of the church.

that day- the day of our gathering together
shall not come - till what?
falling away/defection from truth
and-man of sin is revealed

We wait for our redemption. Luke 21 places us to look up -after - things.

Luke 21:28 "...when these things...pass..."
If there is any support for pre trib ( I never said I'm convinced of pre trib incidentally) it is not found in Luke either. In fact Luke verses support Matthew and I already said it is not found in Matthew.
 
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BABerean2

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Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory




Rev 6:12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; (The moon does not give its light during a blood moon.)
Rev 6:13  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 
Rev 6:14  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 
Rev 6:15  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 
Rev 6:16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 
Rev 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? 


The Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.
It is a series of overlapping visions.
We know this because Christ returns in Revelation 16:15-16 and also in chapter 19.


The seals book is a summary of the book of Revelation.
Christ also returns above at the end of chapter 6. The same type of language is used in the Olivet Discourse to describe His Second Coming.


.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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The "trib" that incorporates the US funded Israel as part of the prophecy is what I call the "Fib" pre, mid, post fib ... how about no fib and just the scriptures please. Rapture, let's talk about the resurrection and the judgment. Rightly dividing, it's probably the opposite of dividing the spine of the bible and tearing it in half and picking which one to believe.
 
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Choose Wisely

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I repeat: " the pre trib rapture is not found in Matthew 24" . Support for it can be found elsewhere but it is not in Matthew 24. And the people taken away in Matthew 24 were taken away to destruction as in the flood of Noah. You will find the parallel verses proving that in Luke 17. I'd give you a good video explaining this but you probably won't watch it anyway.
Hi Dave,
First, I never said that the pre trib rapture was found in Matt 24. I merely asked a question........What is Matt 24 talking about....Is this the rapture of the church? No, it is not the rapture of the church. How do we know what the harvest is? By looking at the 1st fruits.


Rev 14
14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

So the harvest of Rev 14 which occurs after the tribulation is the 12 tribes that have been scattered across the earth. We know this because we know what the first fruits of the harvest are. If the first fruits are corn......we know the harvest will be corn. If they are pumpkins, we know the harvest will be pumpkins. Since the 1st fruits is 144,000 from the 12 tribes, we know the harvest is the twelve tribes that have been scattered to the four corners of the earth.


And yet.....there will be a remnant left in Israel.
 
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BABerean2

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By looking at the 1st fruits.

Who are the "first fruits" and "virgins" unto Christ?


Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.



Rom 16:5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.


2Co_11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

.
 
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Acts2:38

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Thanks for the comment. I can't agree with you. Try comparing Luke 21 to Matthew 24. I think you will find that Luke 21 is about events that have passed and that Matt 24 is about future events. They are not talking about the same thing.

Hello and thank you for your time.

I would have to agree to disagree. Matthew 24 and Luke 21 are of the same events. Let me explain.

Keeping Matthew 24:1-3 in mind, in reply to the question concerning the destruction of Jerusalem, Jesus gave a rather specific sign. They ask the question "Tell us, when shall these things be?" In Matthew 24:15 Jesus said, "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation... stand in the holy place..." Now regarding Luke 21, in his parallel account, Luke identifies the "abomination" which Jesus foretold as the encompassing of Jerusalem by the Roman army: " And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh" (Luke 21:20). In Matthew 24:33 Jesus said, " So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the door." He went on to say in verse 34, "this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." (compare also Matthew 24:36).

I don't know if you know this, but ALL the first 4 gospels (Matt/Mark/Luke/John) give parallel accounts on many occasions directed toward a different audience. It would behoove people to continue understanding that Matthew and Luke in this occasion, are still giving parallel accounts.

Because the writers are two different people, of course the wording used will be different, but the meanings and events are the same, directed to a specific audience for them to understand.

Explanation of what I mean about audience:
Matthew was written for the Jews specifically.
Luke was intended for the Gentiles and people everywhere
John was intended for new christians and non christians in search to be
Mark spoke to the Romans

These 4 gospels give many parallel accounts. It would be an error to think otherwise.
 
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Acts2:38

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when Jesus will set up his kingdom.

I saw this post intended for another and couldn't help but wish to give you a key to go by.

Everything regarding the kingdom is spoken of as future tense BEFORE Acts 2;
Everything regarding the kingdom is spoken of as present/past tense AFTER Acts 2

Conclusion: The kingdom is already set up and here.

More information:
Matthew 16:18-19 Jesus tells Peter that Peter will be the one to use the keys to open up the church/kingdom. Church and Kingdom are used interchangeably, therefore they are the same meaning. We have plenty of English words today that are different words but the same meaning.

Acts 2, Peter gives a grand sermon to many Jews in which they were cut to the heart and baptized, thereby entering into the church/kingdom.

To back up a little, Jesus said many times that His kingdom is not of this world. He has mentioned that it is not a physical kingdom. Scripture also tells us that an heir of David will never rule upon this physical earth ever again. (scripture gladly provided if you do not know this).

Colossians 1:13, is a good example of present/past tense. There is no escaping this verse and other like it that say the kingdom is here already.
 
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Choose Wisely

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And the people taken away in Matthew 24 were taken away to destruction as in the flood of Noah. You will find the parallel verses proving that in Luke 17. I'd give you a good video explaining this but you probably won't watch it anyway.

I do not believe that those taken away in Matthews example are destroyed. I believe they are taken to safety. I do however believe that they are destroyed in Luke's example, because he says so.

How can I make a statement like that? I can look at Matthew 24 and Luke 21......that appear to be talking about the same thing, (the destruction of Jerusalem) but when we look closely, we can see that Matthew is talking about a future destruction of Jerusalem that has not occurred yet and Luke is talking the destruction of Jerusalem that occurs in 70 AD. The stories sure look similar but they are talking about different events.

I realize that the stories told by both Matthew and Luke are the same event, Noah's flood, but I think the stories are told differently........just like the stories of Matt 24 and Luke 21 are told differently.

When we look at the story of Lot told by Luke:

Luke 17
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;


29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.


We can see that it is Lot that leaves Sodom and then destruction comes on those that remain.
Further, when we go to the Greek it certainly appears that those that are taken, are taken to safety. You can look that up on the internet.
 
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tranquil

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If the verses in Matthew occur at the 6th seal, that would mean that the Tribulation is over at the 6th seal, because..........Immediately after the tribulation of the those days............

I agree that the events of Matt 24 occur at the 6th seal, but Christ is not coming with his saints to set his foot on the Mount of Olives. He is coming with his saints to gather a harvest.


1Cor 15
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,


52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

The Matt 24 verses are definitely the 6th Seal.

the great tribulation begins at the Seals and continues for the unrepentant who choose to get with the false prophet.

the great tribulation is cut short - for believers/ the elect; but then persists for 42 months more - for the wicked.
In other words, a split is occuring: God's people are gathered (the wheat) (these people are the Lord's army at the 6th Trumpet

Remember that in the 6th Trumpet there is the army of 200,000,000. this is the army of the Lord: Psalm 68:17 The chariots of God are twice ten thousand, thousands upon thousands; the Lord is among them; Sinai is now in the sanctuary.

Here is how I think Revelation is laid out

form.jpg

The 2 Witnesses are calling people to come out of the False prophet system and come to the marriage supper.

the wheat harvest has occurred at these Matt 24 verses as you have pointed out, and the tares think that they have been gathered also - because they all have come out of the great tribulation of the Seals. both the wheat and the tares have come up together through the great tribulation of the Seals, but they diverge when they come to the false prophet. It would be like if the 'antichrist of the seals' is Islamic, then a large proportion of Christians would probably be wise enough to stay away from this, but that doesn't mean that this set of 'rejecters of Islam' are good people/ good Christians.

Or put another way, let's say that the antichrist of the Seals is a Democratic dictator - that doesn't mean that the Republican subset that rejects the Democratic dictator are all good people/ good Christians! the false prophet would be an evil Republican that turns people away from God. It would be like a civil war amongst that subset that initially rejected the 1st evil dictator. I would imagine that this is what the parable of the 10 virgins is getting at. Hope that made sense.
 
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BABerean2

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I can look at Matthew 24 and Luke 21......that appear to be talking about the same thing, (the destruction of Jerusalem) but when we look closely, we can see that Matthew is talking about a future destruction of Jerusalem that has not occurred yet and Luke is talking the destruction of Jerusalem that occurs in 70 AD. The stories sure look similar but they are talking about different events.


Olivet Timing Revealed by Luke’s Gospel:



Compare Luke's Gospel to that of Matthew if you want to understand the timing.



Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple (These subtitles are found in e-Sword.)


Luk 21:5  Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said, 

Luk 21:6  "These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down." 

(Mat 24:2  And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down." )





Luk 21:7  So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?" 

(Mat 24:3  Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?")

( Mar 13:3  Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately, 

Mar 13:4  "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?") 





Luk 21:8  And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them. 

(Mat 24:5  For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. )



Luk 21:9  But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately."

(Mat 24:6  And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.) 



Jesus Foretells Wars and Persecution



Luk 21:10  Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 

(Mat 24:7  For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. )



Luk 21:11  And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven. 

(Mat 24:7  For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. )



Luk 21:12  But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake. 

(Mat 24:9  "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.) (Read Acts 22:19-20, where Paul reveals that he fulfilled this text.)



Luk 21:13  But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony. 

Luk 21:14  Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; 

Luk 21:15  for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist. 

Luk 21:16  You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. 

Luk 21:17  And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. 

(Mat 24:10  And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. )



Luk 21:18  But not a hair of your head shall be lost. 

Luk 21:19  By your patience possess your souls. 

(Mat 24:13  But he who endures to the end shall be saved.) 



Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem



Luk 21:20  "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 

(Mat 24:15  "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 



Luk 21:21  Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 

(Mat 24:16  "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.) 



Luk 21:22  For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 

Luk 21:23  But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 

(Mat 24:19  But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! )



Luk 21:24  And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. 
(Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of the verse above is about 70 AD. At the end of the verse we find a period of time known as “the times of the Gentiles”. In the verses that follow we find the future Second Coming of Christ.)


The Coming of the Son of Man



Luk 21:25  "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 

(Mat 24:29  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.) 



Luk 21:26  men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 

Luk 21:27  Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 

(Mat 24:30  Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.) 



Luk 21:28  Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near." 

(Mat 24:33  So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!)

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::



From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "


Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.


John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.





The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.


Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the same reference to flee in the second verse in each Gospel.


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  1. Luke 21 is about when there will be signs in the sun, moon and the stars. It is not about 70 AD.
  2. Jesus Christ told the people that they would not see any signs from heaven. only the sign of Jonas
Yes, Luke 21 is about future signs in the sun, moon and stars.......but it is also about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.

Luke 21
7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?


8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.


9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.


10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:


11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.


12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.



There will be wars, and rumors of wars. Nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom. BUT BEFORE ALL THESE. He is telling the Jews that before these things happen, things are going to happen to them. But in Matthew 24, Matthew is talking about the destruction that has not occurred yet.
 
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I see this verse quoted all the time. What exactly is this verse about. Is it about the rapture of the Church? What do you think?

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

There are two verses. The first is about The cutting off of old covenant apostate Israel, the second is about the second coming of Christ.
 
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Davy

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I see this verse quoted all the time. What exactly is this verse about. Is it about the rapture of the Church? What do you think?

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Rev 1:7
7 Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen.
KJV


The majority of the peoples on earth on that day when they see Jesus coming in the clouds are going to be in shame, and that's why they will "wail because of Him". The Greek for "wail" means to beat the breast in grief.

The deceived will think true world peace has happened on earth, no more wars, and that the false messiah that will have already shown up in Jerusalem is God (2 Thess.2). So when Jesus appears coming in the clouds, they'll know right then they have messed up. Thus they will appear in shame. In one example like Luke 23, they will wish for the hills and mountains to "fall on us" to hide their shame when Christ Jesus appears.
 
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Tree of Life

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I see this verse quoted all the time. What exactly is this verse about. Is it about the rapture of the Church? What do you think?

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

It means that Jesus is going to return in judgement after the church age.

There is no rapture of the church. We are currently living in the tribulation.
 
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