Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth

[iamlamad]

The tribulation is OVER at the 6th seal. As for the wrath of God.......that's another matter.

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Matt 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Stop! Whoa! First, please define what you mean by "tribulation." Perhaps we disagree on terms.

I will agree, the CHURCH AGE is over by the 6th seal, but the 70th week of Daniel has not yet started. And John tells us when God's wrath starts - if you believe Him. Please read the last verse of chapter 6.

Ah! Now I get it! You have fallen into the same trap as Rosenthal and Van Kampen, the first two "prewrathers." You see, the sign at the 6th seal IS NOT THE SAME SIGN as seen in Matthew 24. One is the sign for the start of the Day of the Lord (6th seal) and the other is the sign for His coming as seen in Rev. 19. These are two different signs for two different purposes.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Stop! Whoa! First, please define what you mean by "tribulation." Perhaps we disagree on terms.

I will agree, the CHURCH AGE is over by the 6th seal, but the 70th week of Daniel has not yet started. And John tells us when God's wrath starts - if you believe Him. Please read the last verse of chapter 6.

Ah! Now I get it! You have fallen into the same trap as Rosenthal and Van Kampen, the first two "prewrathers." You see, the sign at the 6th seal IS NOT THE SAME SIGN as seen in Matthew 24. One is the sign for the start of the Day of the Lord (6th seal) and the other is the sign for His coming as seen in Rev. 19. These are two different signs for two different purposes.

The sign at the 6th seal is the very same sign spoken of in Matt 24. Haven't you noticed that every seal lines up perfectly with Matt 24.

You probably don't realize that Matt 24 parallels the SEVEN SEALS. The first seal is the rider on the white horse, the antichrist. This parallels Matthew 24:5
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Then comes the red horse, seal 2. Peace is taken from the earth and they kill one another. This parallels Matthew 24.....nation rising against nation. Then the black horse seal 3........famines in Matthew 24. ETC ETC ETC Every one of the seals matches up to Matthew 24.

Matt 24
9 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.


Matt 24
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Rev 6
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

So bottom line.......the first seal......the rider on the white horse........the antichrist has not been revealed.....so the first seal is not open.

I recommend that you unlearn everything you think you know and start over.
Here in Matthew 24 we can parallel all of the 7 seals.
We can see that immediately after the tribulation God shows up and wrath begins, and yet you can't find many prophecy teachers that can even see that. The tribulation is over when the wrath of God begins. What more proof does anyone need??????????

So EVERY seal lines up with Matt 24. Then when we get to Rev 7 we see a great multitude.........just like the gathering in Matthew 24. We also note in Matt 24 that there is no one riding white horses. I'll give you a clue why. Its because it is not the second coming when Christ sets up his kingdom on earth. It is a harvest.......a gathering..........at the last trump. No white horses ......not a one.

 

[BABerean2]

You see, the sign at the 6th seal IS NOT THE SAME SIGN as seen in Matthew 24.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.




Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;(The moon does not give its light during a Blood Moon.)

Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
(They would not be hiding from the Lamb, unless the Lamb is present at this point.)



We have the same signs and the same Second Coming of Christ in both passages.

We know from the fact that Christ returns in Revelation 16:15-16 and He also returns in chapter 19, that the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.

The future Second Coming of Christ is found at the end of chapter 6, and at the end of chapter 11, and in the "harvest" of chapter 14, and when He returns "as a thief" in Revelation 16:15-16, and in chapter 19.

.

 

[Acts2:38]

The seven kings are not Roman emperors they are kings of world empires. Such as Assyrian, Egyptian, Babylonian, Medo-Persian, Grecian, Roman......etc.

No, that is wrong, in my most respectful and polite intention toward you. Let me explain why.

Daniel 2:44 tells us that "in the days of those kings" God will establish His kingdom.

In the days of "those kings" is referring to the Roman empire if you read the previous verses of Daniel 2:31-45. Obviously Nebuchadnezzar is spoken of as ruling over the first empire talked about here. Then the Median-Persian, which was indeed inferior to Nebuchadnezzar's, obviously the Greek empire under Alexander is the kingdom of brass that (v.39) "bear rule over all the earth", and the fourth kingdom in that interpreted dream was none other than the Roman empire.

Also see Daniel 7 for the same event interpreted differently (talks about the same thing as Daniel 2). The fourth beast in Daniel 7 is none other than the Roman empire.

Now that I got that information out of the way, let me bring your attention back to Daniel 2:44. More specifically the part about how Gods kingdom will be established "in the days of those kings (Roman kings)".

In Matthew 16:18-19, Jesus promises that Peter will be the one to open, with the keys, the church/kingdom. Church and Kingdom are used interchangeably, which means they are the same. Same meaning different words. The church is the kingdom, the kingdom is the church. The kingdom which was set up was "not of this world" (John 18:36). This means it is not a physical kingdom, but a spiritual one.

Moreover, there cannot be any physical kingdom anymore since God told Coniah in Jeremiah 22:30, that none of Coniah's descendants (basically descendants of David) will ever rule on the throne of David never mind even ruling in Judah anymore. Jesus is a descendant of David if you look at Matthew 1, and therefore Jesus cannot rule on a physical throne. However, Jesus can and IS ruling from the spiritual.

The kingdom is already established since Acts 2 (remember Matthew 16:18-19 again). Notice how Peter, in Acts 2, is the one giving the sermon in Jerusalem (remember scripture says to the Jew first). Once the people were cut to the heart and then baptized, once baptized (Acts 2:41), they entered the kingdom/church (Acts 2:47). It is only when one gets baptized that they are finally considered a Christian and in Christs kingdom/church.

Galatians 3:27, basically let me phrase it like this: Can you put on Christ on without baptism?

The Colossians that Paul wrote to were already Christians (Mark 16:16/Galatians 3:27/Acts 2:38,41,47/Acts 8:36-39) and therefore that is why Paul used such context as Colossians 1:13.

Notice the context of Colossians 1:13, "hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son". This clearly speaks of a past tense usage. This tells us that the kingdom is already established.

Notice Revelation 1:9 also? John uses "kingdom" as a past/present tense as well. This tells us that the kingdom is already established.

Therefore, the seven mountains that the woman sits on is Rome 'city of seven hills" and the kings in the latter verses are Roman emperors just as I explained before. Simply because the kingdom of Christ was to be established in the 'days of those kings'.

I recommend studying the OT in order to follow Revelations better.

 

[iamlamad]

The sign at the 6th seal is the very same sign spoken of in Matt 24. Haven't you noticed that every seal lines up perfectly with Matt 24.

You probably don't realize that Matt 24 parallels the SEVEN SEALS. The first seal is the rider on the white horse, the antichrist. This parallels Matthew 24:5
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Then comes the red horse, seal 2. Peace is taken from the earth and they kill one another. This parallels Matthew 24.....nation rising against nation. Then the black horse seal 3........famines in Matthew 24. ETC ETC ETC Every one of the seals matches up to Matthew 24.

Matt 24
9 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.


Matt 24
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Rev 6
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

So bottom line.......the first seal......the rider on the white horse........the antichrist has not been revealed.....so the first seal is not open.

I recommend that you unlearn everything you think you know and start over.
Here in Matthew 24 we can parallel all of the 7 seals.
We can see that immediately after the tribulation God shows up and wrath begins, and yet you can't find many prophecy teachers that can even see that. The tribulation is over when the wrath of God begins. What more proof does anyone need??????????

So EVERY seal lines up with Matt 24. Then when we get to Rev 7 we see a great multitude.........just like the gathering in Matthew 24. We also note in Matt 24 that there is no one riding white horses. I'll give you a clue why. Its because it is not the second coming when Christ sets up his kingdom on earth. It is a harvest.......a gathering..........at the last trump. No white horses ......not a one.

You are free to believe this if you choose, but you will be wrong - mistaken.

Of course there are parallels in Matthew and in Rev. 6. And they both agree - no doubt about that. But did you miss this?

Mat. 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Jesus is telling us that He is NOT YET talking about end times, but rather, church age things.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Notice the preposition "for?" He is continuing on church age and still NOT YET talking about end times.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

Notice the preposition, "then?" He is STILL talking about "the end is not yet." So all these verses are speaking of church age events. The "beginning of sorrows" is church age.

3 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation,

Now, finally, Jesus begins talking about the end times. So when one really reads carefully, and understands the Author's intent, they see this lines up perfectly with seals 1 through 5 being church age and seal 6 starting the end.

Mat. 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Rev. 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

If you keep up with modern prewrath thought, they say that God will give a HUGE sign: total darkness! Neither the sun nor the moon nor any stars will give light. For reference, you might wish to look at Paul Dorgan on "the Day of the Lord." he does a magnificent job there of teaching this error.

Stop and think: HOW did John know the moon had become as blood? Of course, because HE SAW IT. This means, the moon was visible. Therefore, it cannot possibly be the same sign as we seen in Matthew 24, where there will be total darkness.

If you noticed, Joel shows us both signs:

Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

This is clearly the sign for the start of the DAY, not a sign for His coming. The Matthew 24 sign is the sign of His coming, NOT the day of the Lord.

Joel 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
16 The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

This is clearly the sign of His coming - there can be no mistake about that. So in one book, we see both signs - and they are different and for a different purpose.

Sorry, but you are just mistaken.

 

[iamlamad]

No, that is wrong, in my most respectful and polite intention toward you. Let me explain why.

Daniel 2:44 tells us that "in the days of those kings" God will establish His kingdom.

In the days of "those kings" is referring to the Roman empire if you read the previous verses of Daniel 2:31-45. Obviously Nebuchadnezzar is spoken of as ruling over the first empire talked about here. Then the Median-Persian, which was indeed inferior to Nebuchadnezzar's, obviously the Greek empire under Alexander is the kingdom of brass that (v.39) "bear rule over all the earth", and the fourth kingdom in that interpreted dream was none other than the Roman empire.

Also see Daniel 7 for the same event interpreted differently (talks about the same thing as Daniel 2). The fourth beast in Daniel 7 is none other than the Roman empire.

Now that I got that information out of the way, let me bring your attention back to Daniel 2:44. More specifically the part about how Gods kingdom will be established "in the days of those kings (Roman kings)".

In Matthew 16:18-19, Jesus promises that Peter will be the one to open, with the keys, the church/kingdom. Church and Kingdom are used interchangeably, which means they are the same. Same meaning different words. The church is the kingdom, the kingdom is the church. The kingdom which was set up was "not of this world" (John 18:36). This means it is not a physical kingdom, but a spiritual one.

Moreover, there cannot be any physical kingdom anymore since God told Coniah in Jeremiah 22:30, that none of Coniah's descendants (basically descendants of David) will ever rule on the throne of David never mind even ruling in Judah anymore. Jesus is a descendant of David if you look at Matthew 1, and therefore Jesus cannot rule on a physical throne. However, Jesus can and IS ruling from the spiritual.

The kingdom is already established since Acts 2 (remember Matthew 16:18-19 again). Notice how Peter, in Acts 2, is the one giving the sermon in Jerusalem (remember scripture says to the Jew first). Once the people were cut to the heart and then baptized, once baptized (Acts 2:41), they entered the kingdom/church (Acts 2:47). It is only when one gets baptized that they are finally considered a Christian and in Christs kingdom/church.

Galatians 3:27, basically let me phrase it like this: Can you put on Christ on without baptism?

The Colossians that Paul wrote to were already Christians (Mark 16:16/Galatians 3:27/Acts 2:38,41,47/Acts 8:36-39) and therefore that is why Paul used such context as Colossians 1:13.

Notice the context of Colossians 1:13, "hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son". This clearly speaks of a past tense usage. This tells us that the kingdom is already established.

Notice Revelation 1:9 also? John uses "kingdom" as a past/present tense as well. This tells us that the kingdom is already established.

Therefore, the seven mountains that the woman sits on is Rome 'city of seven hills" and the kings in the latter verses are Roman emperors just as I explained before. Simply because the kingdom of Christ was to be established in the 'days of those kings'.

I recommend studying the OT in order to follow Revelations better.

I disagree. Rome has been gone for centuries yet we are still here. Neither the DAY of the Lord nor the 70th week has come. The image of Dan. 2 and Daniel's vision of chapter 7 are showing us both History (the old empires that ruled over Israel) and the modern nations that are occupying the SAME LAND AREAS. If you notice in chapter 7, all four of this kings are living together at the same time. I would guess Iran, Iraq, Syria or other nations. The Beast takes down 3 of ten, leaving 7, and He becomes the 8th king, but ruling over 7. I am convinced they are Muslim nations that today occupy the land areas held by Babylon, Medo-persia, and Alexander the Great.

The seven hills are seven nations with seven kings.

 

[BABerean2]

nor the 70th week has come.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.



Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
(The New Covenant, Jeremiah 31:31-34)
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.



Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.


.

 

[Acts2:38]

I disagree. Rome has been gone for centuries yet we are still here. Neither the DAY of the Lord nor the 70th week has come. The image of Dan. 2 and Daniel's vision of chapter 7 are showing us both History (the old empires that ruled over Israel) and the modern nations that are occupying the SAME LAND AREAS. If you notice in chapter 7, all four of this kings are living together at the same time. I would guess Iran, Iraq, Syria or other nations. The Beast takes down 3 of ten, leaving 7, and He becomes the 8th king, but ruling over 7. I am convinced they are Muslim nations that today occupy the land areas held by Babylon, Medo-persia, and Alexander the Great.

The seven hills are seven nations with seven kings.

Hello,

You are free to disagree as God gave us the free will of choice to do so with all things while we live upon this earth. I will still respect you as a person with whatever you wish to believe, but I will, as the bible instructs, inform you that this belief is in error with all due respect toward you.

You have missed key context in Daniel, Matthew, Acts, Revelation, that I brought forth to the other person. If you were reading my posts toward that person, you would have seen that if you carefully read my posts. I will restate why your belief is wrong.

Daniel 2:44 = "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever."

Daniel 7:13-14 ="I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him."
"And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed."

Now many of you premillennialists (by your talk and belief, I assume you are lumped in with this group) believe that it is a physical kingdom that will be set up in OUR future. Jesus warned you and told you this is not so.

John 18:36 = Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

God told you that David's descendants will not rule on a physical throne of David anymore for all time.

Jeremiah 22, more specifically read verse 30
"Thus saith the Lord, Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah."

Jesus is a descendant of David and Coniah, read Matthew 1. Therefore, the kingdom spoke about in Daniel and ALL the NT is the spiritual kingdom. It is Christians who obey Christs teachings (the gospel). There will not be a physical kingdom in our future friend. That kingdom spoke about started long ago.

Next look at Matthew 16:18-19
"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Here, church and kingdom are used interchangeably. They are different words but of the same meaning. They are one in the same. The church IS the kingdom and the kingdom IS the church. Pay attention now.....

Jesus told us Peter will be the one to start this movement right?

Acts 2, what is Peter doing? "upon this rock" aka confession of Jesus the Christ, Peter is using those keys to open up the church/kingdom. You see that eventually the Jews listening were "cut to the heart" and asked what they should do. Peter tells them, Acts 2:38 is what they need to do. They are then added to the church/kingdom in Acts 2:41 and 47.

Now you may try to be tricky and say, "but that just says they were added to the church, are you blind?"

And I would say look to Colossians 1:13. What were the Christians of Colosse "translated into"? The kingdom (past tense).

Another example is Revelation 1:9. John is "brother and companion" to those Christians "...in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ...". Past/present tense are used. The kingdom is already established. The kingdom is the church.

Church in the Greek used in the intended context is ekklēsia - "an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting; a calling out; Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both); assembly, church."

It is Christians that are people in that spiritual kingdom, those who are baptized into Christ (Galatians 3:27; Colossians 1:13; Acts 2:38,41,47). The church/kingdom has been established since Acts 2's "day of Pentecost".

Now look at Daniel 2:44 again, and Daniel 7:13-14 after seeing the information provided.

What are your thoughts?

Edit: Side note for future study on your part.

Everything in reference to the kingdom BEFORE Acts 2 is future tense context.

Everything in reference to the kingdom AFTER Acts 2 is past/present tense context.

Therefore, Daniels 2:44 and 7:13-14, is already fulfilled, thereby meaning that "the days of those kings" is in reference to Roman emperors mentioned in Revelation.

 

[Davy]

With all due respect, much of what you're saying 'just ain't so'...

Hello,

.... I will restate why your belief is wrong.

Daniel 2:44 = "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever."

Context is everything. That 44th verse followed after mention of the final beast kingdom of ten toes of part iron and part clay. The ten toes being about the final beast kingdom is linked to the ten kings. That's who verse 44 is talking about with "And in the days of these kings...". The ten kings are to reign one hour with the beast (beast king) per Rev.17. That is the 'days' of these kings when God shall setup a Kingdom that shall never be destroyed. Revelation with the beast and ten kings is pointing to events for the very end of this world, not back in the past. There can no longer be standing any... kingdom of man on earth when this Dan.2:44 verse happens.

Daniel 7:13-14 ="I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him."
"And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed."

Again, Scripture context is everything. The subject of those Dan.7:13-14 verses follow the matter of the defeat of the ten horns and the little horn that comes up. And then Daniel said, "I beheld until the thrones were cast down, ...", pointing to the time of the end of this world when the ten kings and beast king of Rev.17 will be defeated by Christ's second coming.

That Daniel 7 Scripture even contains the subject of the kings and mighty men of the earth being shut in the pit for the time of Christ's future thousand years reign:

Dan 7:11-12
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
KJV

All that is to happen prior... to those Dan.7:13-14 verses you took OUT OF THE CONTEXT of the Daniel 7 chapter.

Now many of you premillennialists (by your talk and belief, I assume you are lumped in with this group) believe that it is a physical kingdom that will be set up in OUR future. Jesus warned you and told you this is not so.

John 18:36 = Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

All it takes is a little common sense to know the false doctrine you're on is to twist that Scripture. When Jesus said His Kingdom is not of 'this world', it's about this present world time. There is another world to come, ya know, and it ain't happened yet. And in that world to come is when Christ's de facto Kingdom will be established on this earth, and there's plenty written about it throughout God's Word. So how could you so blatantly misuse Scripture??

God told you that David's descendants will not rule on a physical throne of David anymore for all time.

Oh did He now? Funny how you turn God's promise to David that there would never fail one of his seed to reign upon His throne unto all generations. There's even one of the house of David reigning upon a throne on earth today! But I won't tell you where it is, since you obviously don't believe God is able to keep His promise to David. So why should you be shown anything?

Jeremiah 22, more specifically read verse 30
"Thus saith the Lord, Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah."

More baloney that is. You misapply that verse in the absolute sense about the house of David when Jesus is a descendant of the house of David!

Gen 49:10
10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto Him shall the gathering of the people be.
KJV

That "sceptre" is one of the wands the king holds sitting on the throne. This means David's throne will always have one from the tribe of Judah sitting upon that throne all the way... to Shiloh's (Jesus) second coming.

Jesus is a descendant of David and Coniah, read Matthew 1. Therefore, the kingdom spoke about in Daniel and ALL the NT is the spiritual kingdom. It is Christians who obey Christs teachings (the gospel). There will not be a physical kingdom in our future friend. That kingdom spoke about started long ago.

Yes there will be a Kingdom when Jesus returns, on earth. Psalms 2.

Next look at Matthew 16:18-19
"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Here, church and kingdom are used interchangeably. They are different words but of the same meaning. They are one in the same. The church IS the kingdom and the kingdom IS the church. Pay attention now.....

Jesus told us Peter will be the one to start this movement right?

Acts 2, what is Peter doing? "upon this rock" aka confession of Jesus the Christ, Peter is using those keys to open up the church/kingdom. You see that eventually the Jews listening were "cut to the heart" and asked what they should do. Peter tells them, Acts 2:38 is what they need to do. They are then added to the church/kingdom in Acts 2:41 and 47.

Now you may try to be tricky and say, "but that just says they were added to the church, are you blind?"

And I would say look to Colossians 1:13. What were the Christians of Colosse "translated into"? The kingdom (past tense).

Bad supposition gone wrong, that is. "An apple is a fruit. A banana is a fruit. So all apples must be bananas too." No, Christ's Church is about the congregation of His people. But the Kingdom is Christ's Dominion. You don't even know the origin of the word 'kingdom'. It's from two words, a 'king' and his 'dominion', a 'king-dom'! A kingdom has a monarch upon a throne. When Jesus returns He will sit upon the throne of David promised to Him.

Can't really stand anymore chopping up of God's Word... it's pitiful.

 

[BABerean2]

When Jesus said His Kingdom is not of 'this world', it's about this present world time. There is another world to come, ya know, and it ain't happened yet.

Mat_12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

.

 

[Acts2:38]

Hello,

Thank you for your extremely rude, ignorant, and full of error post toward me. What kindness you show to attempt to bring people to your false doctrine. I also like how you say "with all due respect" but then trample upon me with all disrespect almost immediately. I like how you dodged all the text I posted about the kingdom that is already here. Did you fully read my entire post?

To be as brief as possible:
All scripture referencing the kingdom BEFORE Acts 2 is a future tense context

All scripture referencing the kingdom AFTER Acts 2 is a past/present tense context.

I guess you missed that part? See it for yourself, then come back to me and report your findings. Your job now is to disprove this, which you haven't yet.

With all due respect, much of what you're saying 'just ain't so'...



Context is everything. That 44th verse followed after mention of the final beast kingdom of ten toes of part iron and part clay. The ten toes being about the final beast kingdom is linked to the ten kings. That's who verse 44 is talking about with "And in the days of these kings...". The ten kings are to reign one hour with the beast (beast king) per Rev.17. That is the 'days' of these kings when God shall setup a Kingdom that shall never be destroyed. Revelation with the beast and ten kings is pointing to events for the very end of this world, not back in the past. There can no longer be standing any... kingdom of man on earth when this Dan.2:44 verse happens.




Again, Scripture context is everything. The subject of those Dan.7:13-14 verses follow the matter of the defeat of the ten horns and the little horn that comes up. And then Daniel said, "I beheld until the thrones were cast down, ...", pointing to the time of the end of this world when the ten kings and beast king of Rev.17 will be defeated by Christ's second coming.

That Daniel 7 Scripture even contains the subject of the kings and mighty men of the earth being shut in the pit for the time of Christ's future thousand years reign:

Dan 7:11-12
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
KJV

All that is to happen prior... to those Dan.7:13-14 verses you took OUT OF THE CONTEXT of the Daniel 7 chapter.





All it takes is a little common sense to know the false doctrine you're on is to twist that Scripture. When Jesus said His Kingdom is not of 'this world', it's about this present world time. There is another world to come, ya know, and it ain't happened yet. And in that world to come is when Christ's de facto Kingdom will be established on this earth, and there's plenty written about it throughout God's Word. So how could you so blatantly misuse Scripture??




Oh did He now? Funny how you turn God's promise to David that there would never fail one of his seed to reign upon His throne unto all generations. There's even one of the house of David reigning upon a throne on earth today! But I won't tell you where it is, since you obviously don't believe God is able to keep His promise to David. So why should you be shown anything?



More baloney that is. You misapply that verse in the absolute sense about the house of David when Jesus is a descendant of the house of David!

Gen 49:10
10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto Him shall the gathering of the people be.
KJV

That "sceptre" is one of the wands the king holds sitting on the throne. This means David's throne will always have one from the tribe of Judah sitting upon that throne all the way... to Shiloh's (Jesus) second coming.




Yes there will be a Kingdom when Jesus returns, on earth. Psalms 2.




Bad supposition gone wrong, that is. "An apple is a fruit. A banana is a fruit. So all apples must be bananas too." No, Christ's Church is about the congregation of His people. But the Kingdom is Christ's Dominion. You don't even know the origin of the word 'kingdom'. It's from two words, a 'king' and his 'dominion', a 'king-dom'! A kingdom has a monarch upon a throne. When Jesus returns He will sit upon the throne of David promised to Him.

Can't really stand anymore chopping up of God's Word... it's pitiful.

Come back to me when you have disproved that the kingdom is here and when you actually put together a coherent response structure to my posts. Your jumbling around and what makes it worse is its in error. Especially when it comes to bible predictions and fulfillment's of predictions, you are lost in the sauce. Its no wonder you haven't the slightest clue about Revelation since it is a symbolic book, a code book if you will. It dives heavily into figurative language that is lost on you if you have not understood the OT. In your case, you might also profit from understanding Jewish culture of those times and their uses of words and meanings. For example numbers like 7.

The number 7 came to symbolize the meaning of totality or completeness associated with God's authority on the earth. It is believed by many that the number 7 is a product of adding the number 3 which represented the complete divine, to the number 4 which symbolized the whole earth. Solomon wrote in Proverbs 30:18-29 that there were three things which were good and wonderful and go well, but then there are four things upon the earth that are set in contrast to the things described by the number three. Solomon repeated this imagery four times in these verses of scripture. In the first two chapters of Amos we read of God's prophecy of wrath on Damascus, Tyrus, Edom, Moab and Judah. In every instance He used the words "for three transgression and for four". It is obvious from a reading of the book of Amos that the transgression of these nations were far more than seven. This is an obvious symbolic use of the number seven arrived at by adding three and four. The sins of these nations were complete, being against the divine and on earth. So I imagine you get the hint when it comes to the book of Revelation.

So lets focus on those NT verses about the kingdom. You might be able to understand those better.

You homework is to read scriptures BEFORE and AFTER Acts 2 and show me what you find in opposition of what I post here below.

Everything BEFORE Acts 2, references the kingdom as future tense; Everything AFTER Acts 2, references the kingdom as past/present tense.

Remember, like what you said, its the context. I suggest applying your advice to yourself. I await your findings.

 

[Davy]

Mat_12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

.

And yet another one of your misapplications of Scripture. Jesus at His first coming offered the Kingdom then if Jerusalem would have accepted Him as The Christ, but alas, He was rejected wasn't He?

 

[Davy]

Hello,

Thank you for your extremely rude, ignorant, and full of error post toward me. What kindness you show to attempt to bring people to your false doctrine. I also like how you say "with all due respect" but then trample upon me with all disrespect almost immediately. I like how you dodged all the text I posted about the kingdom that is already here. Did you fully read my entire post?
....

All I saw was your blatant misuse of simple Scripture by pulling a verse here and a verse there totally out of it's context of the chapter where it's in. The story changes a lot when you're forced... to address a verse within the contextual flow of the chapter where it appears. Before one can pull out a single verse and apply to God's Word they first have to understand it within its context where it was written. Not doing so is 'chopping up' God's Word to one's own... liking, which is how worthless doctrines of men get started.

 

[Acts2:38]

All I saw was your blatant misuse of simple Scripture by pulling a verse here and a verse there totally out of it's context of the chapter where it's in. The story changes a lot when you're forced... to address a verse within the contextual flow of the chapter where it appears. Before one can pull out a single verse and apply to God's Word they first have to understand it within its context where it was written. Not doing so is 'chopping up' God's Word to one's own... liking, which is how worthless doctrines of men get started.

Excuse me, but I never 'chopped' Gods scripture and my story and explanations never 'changed'. Also, I encourage to read scripture before and after verses pulled. You still will get the results I have explained to you.

 

[Davy]

Excuse me, but I never 'chopped' Gods scripture and my story and explanations never 'changed'. Also, I encourage to read scripture before and after verses pulled. You still will get the results I have explained to you.

Well my rebuttal of your pulled verses definitely proved you wrong.

 

[Acts2:38]

Well my rebuttal of your pulled verses definitely proved you wrong.

Huh?

You must have skipped a post as I directed another response that you have thus far blown off.

If you dont remember I will repost it. You have not proved me wrong since I am simply pulling up scripture and showing you with I suppose a commentary that actually states the obvious. I really didnt even need to put my commentary.

 

[Davy]

....
All scripture referencing the kingdom BEFORE Acts 2 is a future tense context

All scripture referencing the kingdom AFTER Acts 2 is a past/present tense context.

I guess you missed that part? See it for yourself, then come back to me and report your findings. Your job now is to disprove this, which you haven't yet.
....

According to what you said above, all references to a kingdom after Acts 2 is a "past/present tense context".

One simple verse by Apostle Paul completely dumps your theory that the Kingdom of God is now manifest upon this earth today...

1 Cor 15:50
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

When you have put off this flesh on the "last trump", and at the "twinkling of an eye" have put on the "spiritual body" which Paul taught there in 1 Cor.15, then... you can say the Kingdom of God has manifested on earth. Until then, like Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world...":


John 8:23
23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
KJV

John 18:36
36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is My kingdom not from hence.
KJV

 

[Davy]

Just so we are clear as to whom God has given this present world to rule over...

Luke 4:5-8
5 And the devil, taking Him up into an high mountain, shewed unto Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.

6 And the devil said unto Him, "All this power will I give Thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

7 If Thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be Thine."

8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, "Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, 'Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve.'
KJV

 

[BABerean2]

And yet another one of your misapplications of Scripture. Jesus at His first coming offered the Kingdom then if Jerusalem would have accepted Him as The Christ, but alas, He was rejected wasn't He?

There was a time during His earthly ministry that they attempted to make Him king, but He left before they could declare Him king.

The misapplication is on your part if you think that the Kingdom could have come at that point in time.
Read the "suffering servant" of Isaiah chapter 53.
His purpose found in Genesis 3:15 was always to be a blood sacrifice for the sins of the world.
There was never any plan B.

You continue to insinuate that He was rejected by all of His people.
However, scripture says otherwise.
Even the thief on the Cross accepted Him as the Messiah.

Romans 9:27 and the rest of the New Testament clearly state that a "remnant" will accept Him.


.

 

[iamlamad]

Hello,

You are free to disagree as God gave us the free will of choice to do so with all things while we live upon this earth. I will still respect you as a person with whatever you wish to believe, but I will, as the bible instructs, inform you that this belief is in error with all due respect toward you.

You are courteous, I will give you that!

You have missed key context in Daniel, Matthew, Acts, Revelation, that I brought forth to the other person. If you were reading my posts toward that person, you would have seen that if you carefully read my posts. I will restate why your belief is wrong.

According to you that is.

Daniel 2:44 = "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever."

Yes, indeed the God of heaven in the form of Jesus Christ the Son, will set up an earthly kingdom. I believe this: John tells us this in Rev. 20. Proof that it is an earthly kingdom is that it consumes all the other earthly kingdoms.

Daniel 7:13-14 ="I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him."
"And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed."

Nothing new here. WHERE are "all languages" and "peoples" and "nations?" of course, they are here on earth.

Now many of you premillennialists (by your talk and belief, I assume you are lumped in with this group) believe that it is a physical kingdom that will be set up in OUR future. Jesus warned you and told you this is not so.

I am certainly a premillennialist. You have found me! Yes, indeed I DO believe it will be a physical kingdom. You will too in time, when you see it.

John 18:36 = Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Do you know ANYTHING about timing? This was said by Jesus as he was on trial around 32 AD. And at that time, FOR SURE His kingdom was a spiritual kingdom. But He did not say it would always be a spiritual kingdom. His kingdom is STILL a spiritual kingdom dwelling in the hearts of men. But Rev. 20 tells us there will be a physical kingdom coming. If you cannot believe what is written, there is little help for you. You will continue to believe nonsense until this physical kingdom is set up. I dare then then, when you SEE IT, to tell Jesus it cannot be.

God told you that David's descendants will not rule on a physical throne of David anymore for all time.

No, He certainly has not. He has told me many things, but not that. Did you forget that Jesus told His disciples that THEY WOULD REIGN?

Jeremiah 22, more specifically read verse 30
"Thus saith the Lord, Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah."

I wonder at your reading ability. This verse is about ONE MAN, Coniah.

Jesus is a descendant of David and Coniah, read Matthew 1. Therefore, the kingdom spoke about in Daniel and ALL the NT is the spiritual kingdom. It is Christians who obey Christs teachings (the gospel). There will not be a physical kingdom in our future friend. That kingdom spoke about started long ago.

Again I wonder. Do you take time to think about these things? This lineage is about Joseph. Sorry, my friend, but Joseph was NOT Jesus' father!

Next look at Matthew 16:18-19
"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Here, church and kingdom are used interchangeably. They are different words but of the same meaning. They are one in the same. The church IS the kingdom and the kingdom IS the church. Pay attention now.....

"Church" in this verse means the universal body of Christ on earth - all true believers taken together. And, they are the kingdom of God on earth, but a spiritual kingdom. OK.

Jesus told us Peter will be the one to start this movement right?

Jesus build this church on Peter? NEVER! No, the "rock" upon which Jesus would build His church is the rock of revelation knowledge that Peter had just used.

Acts 2, what is Peter doing? "upon this rock" aka confession of Jesus the Christ, Peter is using those keys to open up the church/kingdom. You see that eventually the Jews listening were "cut to the heart" and asked what they should do. Peter tells them, Acts 2:38 is what they need to do. They are then added to the church/kingdom in Acts 2:41 and 47.

Not sure I follow your logic here. Yes, the confession came from revealed knowledge and it was that revealed knowledge Jesus would use throughout the church age to guide the church. There is no doubt, Peter was a leader of the church in the beginning. So what is your point?

Now you may try to be tricky and say, "but that just says they were added to the church, are you blind?"

And I would say look to Colossians 1:13. What were the Christians of Colosse "translated into"? The kingdom (past tense).

OF COURSE all of us have been "translated" into His Kingdom, but it is still a spiritual kingdom.

Another example is Revelation 1:9. John is "brother and companion" to those Christians "...in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ...". Past/present tense are used. The kingdom is already established. The kingdom is the church.

Of course the church is the kingdom of God on earth: we are the body of Christ.

Church in the Greek used in the intended context is ekklēsia - "an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting; a calling out; Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both); assembly, church."

It is Christians that are people in that spiritual kingdom, those who are baptized into Christ (Galatians 3:27; Colossians 1:13; Acts 2:38,41,47). The church/kingdom has been established since Acts 2's "day of Pentecost".

I follow you.

Now look at Daniel 2:44 again, and Daniel 7:13-14 after seeing the information provided.

What are your thoughts?

The stone has not yet smashed the image on the feet. That is future. Again, Daniel 7 is a future earthly kingdom.

Edit: Side note for future study on your part.

Everything in reference to the kingdom BEFORE Acts 2 is future tense context.

Everything in reference to the kingdom AFTER Acts 2 is past/present tense context.

Therefore, Daniels 2:44 and 7:13-14, is already fulfilled, thereby meaning that "the days of those kings" is in reference to Roman emperors mentioned in Revelation.

Dan. 7
17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

Without a doubt, these four kings are alive today. BUT: the saints have not taken the kingdom yet. Have you ever heard of the battle of Armageddon?

Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

"Thrones and they..." WHO are the "they? It is the church, redeemed and given resurrection bodies, and reigning with Christ.

"I saw the souls..." These are those that during the reign of the Antichrist refuse the mark and lost their head. They too are reigning ON EARTH in a physical kingdom.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. The CHURCH, the body of Christ all together, with resurrection bodies, will reign with Christ. Perhaps one will get ten cities to reign over. Perhaps another will only get one city. Remember the parable of the talents?

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

You would have to do great damage to the words here to make this say ANYTHING but a physical kingdom.