Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth

[iamlamad]

You had included Daniel 2:44 in your cited scriptures. It declares that God will set up a kingdom "in the days of these kings". That occurred when God established His spiritual kingdom in the days of the king(s) of the fourth temporal kingdom, imperial pagan Rome. The temporal kingdom which followed pagan Rome was papal Rome, which was both a temporal political, and an apostate spiritual, kingdom. It was and will be destroyed through spiritual warfare, beginning with the Reformation, and continuing to the end (Daniel 7:26).

I will agree, it appears that way - but I think this vision goes deeper: yes, it is a picture of those ancient kingdoms, but I think it also is a picture of the end time kingdom. Just as Chapter 7 shows, there will be kings over these same land areas as it exists TODAY. Well, there may well be a new Muslim leader emerge in Iraq before the 70th week - but I think the "trees" are just about lined up for the end.

For sure, one "head" received a deadly wound: Iraq was conquered and the "king", Saddam, was killed. Will this wound be healed and a new king emerge? I think it will.

I know now that you don't believe in a literal 1000 year kingdom. If you are young enough, I think you will get to SEE it with your own eyes before you experience death.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Choose Wisely]

What makes you think they get raptured? Doesn't it say that the scene is they are among men/not holy angels per se - and they learn a song that comes down out of heaven?

They are the first fruits of the 12 tribes. First fruits are harvested and removed from the field.

These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

First fruits are a guarantee of a harvest which we see at the end of Rev 14

 

[Choose Wisely]

To have a harvest, does one need a sickle?
Is there a sickle in Rev. 14 as it closes? How many crowns does Jesus Christ wear when He has a sickle?
one

How many crowns does He wear as the Rider returning on a white horse? many crowns

These are not the same comings of Jesus Christ.

Exactly...........Thank you for proving my point!
The harvest of Rev 14 - All eyes will see.......Then the marriage supper..........Then return on white horses.
Church already harvested pre trib.............Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood. But the very day Lot leaves Sodom destruction comes.

He is the firstfruits of the dead just to raised....after the 7th trumpet sounds will come the rest of the harvest -at His coming.
Paul told how He will judge the dead at His appearing and that is then when Paul told us a crown will be given to a certain type of people/including himself among them.

7th trumpet sounds - we get to Rev. 11:18 and find - it is time to judge the dead and -give reward to the saints.

OK

There is not going to be a rapture until after the great tribulation is over. That day- the day of the church being gathered -shall not come till - the man of sin is revealed.

2 Thes 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

This does not say that there is not going to be a rapture until after the great tribulation.

Additionally, THAT DAY is not the day the Church is gathered. The verses do not say that.
The verses say.....THAT DAY.....THE DAY OF CHRIST.....will not occur until the come a falling away first. and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

 

[iamlamad]

What makes you think they get raptured? Doesn't it say that the scene is they are among men/not holy angels per se - and they learn a song that comes down out of heaven?

Where are the four beasts? Are they not in the throne room?

 

[iamlamad]

Exactly...........Thank you for proving my point!
The harvest of Rev 14 - All eyes will see.......Then the marriage supper..........Then return on white horses.
Church already harvested pre trib.............Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood. But the very day Lot leaves Sodom destruction comes.


OK



2 Thes 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

This does not say that there is not going to be a rapture until after the great tribulation.

Additionally, THAT DAY is not the day the Church is gathered. The verses do not say that.
The verses say.....THAT DAY.....THE DAY OF CHRIST.....will not occur until the come a falling away first. and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

I think a better translation is "a departing first" as in the catching away of the believers. Then, AFTER the rapture, the man of sin will be revealed.

 

[BABerean2]

Pastor Mike Hoggard on Rightly Dividing the Word:

 

[Revealing Times]

I see this verse quoted all the time. What exactly is this verse about. Is it about the rapture of the Church? What do you think?

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1st Conclusion - The verses of Matthew are referring to the harvest of Rev 14 and are not referring to the second coming when Christ sets up his kingdom on earth as is commonly taught.

Its not about the Rapture of the Church, that happens before the Day of the Lord or Gods Wrath which begins in Seal number one. It happens 3.5 years before the Midway point.

Immediately after the Tribulation of those days [begin] then the sun will be darkened, the moon will turn to blood and the heaven will be shaken, in my opinion the HEAVENS BEING SHAKEN is Satan being cast out of Heaven like an untimely fig falling in its season. AND THEN...... = after.

And then we will see Jesus coming in the Heavens.

There are two Harvests shown in Rev. 14, one is Jesus sitting on the clouds which seems to point towards the 1 Cor. 15 meeting Jesus in the air. Then there seems to be a Harvest of the wicked where the wicked are placed in the wine-press of God. At this point the sheep and the goats are separated as are the Wheat & Tares. That means the Jews/Israel and the Wicked in both instances, not the Church which returns with Jesus Christ.

2nd Conclusion - The tribulation is over at the 6th seal, then the wrath of God begins. The wrath of God and the tribulation do not occur at the same time as is commonly taught.

I really have no clue why people think the Six Seal somehow ends the Troubles of Israel. The Tribulation period runs from the First Seal unto the Seventh Vial.

 

[Revealing Times]

The pre trib rapture ( for those believing in it) is not found in Matthew 24 at all. Matthew 24 is about Jesus' return to earth at the end not before. There are scriptures supporting a pre trib rapture but this isn't among them.

Jesus does not teach it in Matthew 24, I will grant you that, but it is there if you know where to look for it and what to look for. Its out of place/order, but then again he was not trying to reveal it to those disciples, he gave it to Paul the disciple unto the Gentiles.

Matthew 24:1-6 is the 70 AD Event.
Matthew 24:7-14 is the 2000 year Church Age.

The RAPTURE HAPPENS HERE.......Jesus doesn't mention it until later, VAGUELY.

Matthew 24:15-28 is the Seven Year Tribulation.
Matthew 24:29-31 is the Second Coming.

Matthew 24:32-35 is the parable of the Fig Tree. Most try to equate it with Israel being reborn, but that essentially is not what it is about. Jesus just gave us about 20-25 signs in the previous Matthew 24 verses, he then stated that the Generation that saw all of these things come to pass (Signs come to pass) they would be nigh at the door to his Second Coming, and their generation would not pass (die as a generation) until he returned. (Second Coming)

Thus it will have to be the generation that sees the Sun darkened, Moon turn to blood red and Stars shaken that will see ALL OF THOSE SIGNS come to pass. So every sign Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24 has to come to pass, and those last three I just mentioned are the last three signs, so the Jews living in the Tribulation period will understand this and heed Jesus' words.

Then Matthew 24:36, in my opinion, is about the Rapture, Jesus tells his followers what to look for without speaking about the Rapture per se. The other signs are about the Second Coming for the Jewish peoples. This is about the Rapture for the followers of Jesus Christ, bit Jew and Gentile. As in the days of Noah, they (the world) will be drinking and marrying, and acting as if nothing was going to happen. Where is the promise of his coming will say the scoffers !! BUT WE KNOW via logic that during the Tribulation period they will not be acting like this, they will be ducking and dodging the PLAGUES OF GOD !! Not acting as if things were normal. Noah warned the people(s), they laughed, we warn the people(s) of coming doom, they laugh. No one will be laughing just before the Second Coming believe me, this is abut the RAPTURE, even though Jesus did not expound on it here. (It was meant for Paul)

One will be taken and another will be left. Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Those on earth will understand when the Second Coming is about to happen. They will see all of the Seals come to pass, then the foretold Trumpet judgments. Then the Vial judgments.

Lastly they will see the Sixth Vial coming to pass, all Nations gathering at Armageddon to fight God and Jesus Christ. Then when the Seventh Vial is poured out and Jesus RETURNS, no one will be surprised unless they have never read the bible. So this portion/passage CAN NOT FIT the Second Coming. This passage only fits the Rapture.

 

[BABerean2]

Matthew 24:1-6 is the 70 AD Event.
Matthew 24:7-14 is the 2000 year Church Age.

The RAPTURE HAPPENS HERE.......Jesus doesn't mention it until later, VAGUELY.

Matthew 24:15-28 is the Seven Year Tribulation.
Matthew 24:29-31 is the Second Coming.

Olivet Timing Revealed by Luke’s Gospel:


Compare Luke's Gospel to that of Matthew if you want to understand the timing.


Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple (These subtitles are found in e-Sword.)


Luk 21:5　 Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said,　

Luk 21:6　 "These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down."　

(Mat 24:2　 And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down."　)





Luk 21:7　 So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?"　

(Mat 24:3　 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?")

(　Mar 13:3　 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately,　

Mar 13:4　 "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?")　





Luk 21:8　 And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them.　

(Mat 24:5　 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.　)



Luk 21:9　 But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately."

(Mat 24:6　 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.)　



Jesus Foretells Wars and Persecution



Luk 21:10　 Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.　

(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)



Luk 21:11　 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.　

(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)



Luk 21:12　 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake.　

(Mat 24:9　 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.)　(Read Acts 22:19-20, where Paul reveals that he fulfilled this text.)



Luk 21:13　 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony.　

Luk 21:14　 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer;　

Luk 21:15　 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist.　

Luk 21:16　 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death.　

Luk 21:17　 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake.　

(Mat 24:10　 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.　)



Luk 21:18　 But not a hair of your head shall be lost.　

Luk 21:19　 By your patience possess your souls.　

(Mat 24:13　 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.)　



Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem



Luk 21:20　 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.　

(Mat 24:15　 "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),　



Luk 21:21　 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.　

(Mat 24:16　 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.)　



Luk 21:22　 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.　

Luk 21:23　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.　

(Mat 24:19　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!　)



Luk 21:24　 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.　
(Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of the verse above is about 70 AD. At the end of the verse we find a period of time known as “the times of the Gentiles”. In the verses that follow we find the future Second Coming of Christ.)


The Coming of the Son of Man



Luk 21:25　 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;　

(Mat 24:29　 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.)　



Luk 21:26　 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.　

Luk 21:27　 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.　

(Mat 24:30　 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.)　



Luk 21:28　 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."　

(Mat 24:33　 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!)

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From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "


Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.


John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.




The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.


Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the same reference to flee in the second verse in each Gospel.


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[Choose Wisely]

Its not about the Rapture of the Church, that happens before the Day of the Lord or Gods Wrath which begins in Seal number one. It happens 3.5 years before the Midway point.

God's wrath does not begin at the 1st seal.........it begins at the 6th seal

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Immediately after the Tribulation of those days [begin] then the sun will be darkened, the moon will turn to blood and the heaven will be shaken, in my opinion the HEAVENS BEING SHAKEN is Satan being cast out of Heaven like an untimely fig falling in its season. AND THEN...... = after.

Strange you should say that because that's what it says at the sixth seal...........when the tribulation is over and the wrath of God begins
Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

And then we will see Jesus coming in the Heavens.

Gathering for the marriage supper......Not to set up his kingdom on earth just yet.

I really have no clue why people think the Six Seal somehow ends the Troubles of Israel. The Tribulation period runs from the First Seal unto the Seventh Vial.

I certainly don't think it ends the trouble of Israel..........never said that. The tribulation is over at the 6th seal..............Immediately after the tribulation of those days etc etc. Then the wrath of God begins.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Olivet Timing Revealed by Luke’s Gospel:
Compare Luke's Gospel to that of Matthew if you want to understand the timing.
Luk 21:12　 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake.　
(Mat 24:9　 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.)　(Read Acts 22:19-20, where Paul reveals that he fulfilled this text.)

You seem to read right past where in Luke it says ........BUT BEFORE ALL THESE THINGS...........And starts talking about 70AD. But Matthew uses .....THEN THEY WILL DELIVER YOU UP..........Meaning AFTER ALL THESE THINGS. Matthew talks about the future.......Luke talks about 70 AD.

Now I realize that this completely shoots a hole in the things you believe. The problem is......even though it is right in front of your face and clearly shown to you...........you have a problem rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

 

[Revealing Times]

God's wrath does not begin at the 1st seal.........it begins at the 6th seal

That is just your misconception brother. Jesus OPENS ALL OF THE SEALS. Jesus brings the Anti-Christ forth by opening the very First Seal. God is always symmetrical, He does nothing out of order. Just because you see the VISION John SAW as written down, and see when the people on earth understand they are in Gods Wrath (the Lambs Wrath) that doesn't mean that every Seal is not Gods Wrath. You actually see when the humans on earth realize they are in Gods Wrath. And why is it that they finally understand this? A Supernatural event happens, thus it finally hits them, we are in the Lambs Wrath, they have read about this Sun being darkened, the Moon turning blood red and the Heavens being shaken in the book of Revelation !!

Yes, the Anti-Christ starts a major war, conquers Israel/Jerusalem, he takes away peace, millions die, millions starve to death, millions will be murdered. THIS SAME STUFF ALL HAPPENED during WW2 and even WW1 to a lesser degree. The inhabitants of the world through the First Four Seals will just see this as another World War like the other ones, crazy men being crazy, the 5th Seal is a Spiritual Event not even seen by the inhabitants of the earth.

The Sixth Seal is when they finally put it all together. The light switch goes off when they see the SUN go dark, the MOON turn blood red and the Heavens SHAKEN (Whatever that means), then they add the other clues of Rev. chapter 6 up, Jerusalem is Conquered, millions are dying, a man is making people take a Mark of some kind, Famine kills millions etc. etc. So it finally clicks, they get it, EUREKA !! We are in the Day of the Lord (Gods Wrath) and since its the Seals being opened by Jesus they understand that they are in the Wrath of the Lamb !!

I do not for the life of me understand why people can't put these clues together. They always seem to say God does things that He actually never does. God is ALWAYS PERFECT in His Symmetry. He is not starting the Lambs Wrath at the Sixth Seal. Jesus is OPENING ALL OF THE SEALS !!! God just doesn't do things like that out of order, but because they READ in Rev. ch. 6 where the inhabitants on earth say WE ARE IN THE LAMBS WRATH, they actually think that is when the Wrath started, but God doesn't say that nor does He do things out of sync like that. Its VERY CLEAR Jesus is OPENING ALL OF THE SEALS, its irrelevant when the inhabitants of the earth understand that they are in the Lambs Wrath. We should understand all of these things, we know who it is that's opening the SEALS !! So when John sees them in a vision he sees them saying the Day of Gods Wrath has come. That was the VISION, but doesn't preclude the Day of the Lord from having started at the VERY FIRST SEAL. They just made a statement of fact. Jesus is opening all of the seals !!

Strange you should say that because that's what it says at the sixth seal...........when the tribulation is over and the wrath of God begins
Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Just follow Gods Symmetry. All the Seals are Gods Wrath.

Gathering for the marriage supper......Not to set up his kingdom on earth just yet.

Hes coming to conquer the BEAST and all his minions. They are the Marriage Supper.

I certainly don't think it ends the trouble of Israel..........never said that. The tribulation is over at the 6th seal..............Immediately after the tribulation of those days etc etc. Then the wrath of God begins.

Jacobs Troubles is a SEVEN YEAR EVENT. Its the FINAL WEEK. When all the World makes an issue out of Jerusalem until the Anti-Christ CONQUERS Jerusalem and then Israel has to hide in the Wilderness for 1260 days (3.5 years) and the other 2/3 of the Jews world wide are getting killed, its a NEVER ENDING TROUBLES Brother. Gods Wrath is a 3.5 Year event that starts with the very first Seal. The BEAST comes forth for 3.5 Years. He comes forth in the MIDDLE of the Week or at the 3.5 Year mark, thus 3.5 plus 3.5 = SEVEN YEARS.

The Sixth Seal ends nothing nor starts anything my friend. Jesus RETURNS IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation of those days. The Tribulation lasts SEVEN YEARS the Wrath of God lasts 3.5 YEARS.

 

[Revealing Times]

You seem to read right past where in Luke it says ........BUT BEFORE ALL THESE THINGS...........And starts talking about 70AD. But Matthew uses .....THEN THEY WILL DELIVER YOU UP..........Meaning AFTER ALL THESE THINGS. Matthew talks about the future.......Luke talks about 70 AD.

Now I realize that this completely shoots a hole in the things you believe. The problem is......even though it is right in front of your face and clearly shown to you...........you have a problem rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

I have done a multi faceted exegesis on Matthew chapter 24. I have not did one on Luke chapter 21 because its not really necessary, Jesus told them all the same things, some worded it different here and there, or remembered it a bit different but it never really changes the facts. I have read all the Gospels multiple times, but once I do an in depth study I usually stick with that, but I can show you that Luke 21 means the exact same thing as Matthew 24.

I don't seem to do anything because I never spoke of Luke, so I take it you mean my understanding of Matthew leads you to believe this in some manner. I have looked at it and there is no change in my belief. They are both the same.

(BELOW MATCHES Matthew 24:1-6)

Luke 21:6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. 9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.

{{{ Jesus is telling the Disciples about when Jerusalem will be SACKED and the Temple Destroyed here. He says many will come in my name, this fulfills......John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.......

The Pharisees and Scribes knew Rome was the Fourth Beast (AS WE DO) and thought the Little Horn would come out of her (AS IT WILL - 2000 Years later) and thus they forced/put forth christs hoping one could SAVE THEM from Rome, as the Messiah saves them from ruin just as the scriptures say (Zechariah ch. 14). So they put forth these fake christs just as Jesus had told them they would do. He thus tells his disciples, do not follow them, (go ye not after them) BUT......when you hear of wars and rumors of wars (Rome SACKING Jerusalem and destroying the Temple) do not be terrified (thinking its the end and I have RETURNED to the Mt. of Olives) these things must pass BUT THE END IS BY AND BY......Or the END IS NOT YET in Matthew 24. This is about the SACKING of Jerusalem and the Temples Destruction. NOW LETS MOVE ON !! Amen. }}}

(Below Matches Matthew 24:7-14)

Luke 21:10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: 11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

12 But before all these (Verses 10 & 11), they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you (This means that before the 2000 Year Church Age is over,THAT'S WHAT THE ABOVE DESCRIBES, they shall persecute you all and Martyr most, save John basically), delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. 13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony. 14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:

15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. 16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. 17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. 18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish. 19 In your patience possess ye your (Meaning they can not HARM your Spirit Man) souls.

{{{ So in verses 10 and 11 Luke is describing the coming 2000 Year Church Age. There will be many wars during this 2000 year period, Nation vs. Nations, Kingdoms vs. Kingdoms (MANY WARS) and many Earthquakes, Famines and sickness/pestilences. But before this 2000 year period comes to pass, they will lay hands on you, come against you, put you in jail, and many of them as we now know became Martyrs. (Amen-God Bless the Saints). This testimony that they gave and the testimony of the church via the 2000 year Church Age is what has brought the Gospel unto the WHOLE WORLD Amen. Then of course the END COMES NEXT. }}}

(Below Matches Matthew 24:15-31)

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh (End Time Event). 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled (42 Months).

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

{{{ There is ZERO DIFFERENCE in Luke 21 and Matthew 24. Luke 21:20 is of course the END TIME Abomination of Desolation event, the rest of the passage is the Tribulation Period. }}}

 

[BABerean2]

Matthew talks about the future.......Luke talks about 70 AD.

I guess you know that 70 AD happened "after" both books were written.

Therefore it did occur in the future, compared to the time when the book was recorded.

And it occurred after the time that Jesus uttered those words.

Matthew and Luke are clearly parallel accounts, which can be seen by anyone who is being honest with the text.

.

 

[iamlamad]

Its not about the Rapture of the Church, that happens before the Day of the Lord or Gods Wrath which begins in Seal number one. It happens 3.5 years before the Midway point.

Immediately after the Tribulation of those days [begin] then the sun will be darkened, the moon will turn to blood and the heaven will be shaken, in my opinion the HEAVENS BEING SHAKEN is Satan being cast out of Heaven like an untimely fig falling in its season. AND THEN...... = after.

And then we will see Jesus coming in the Heavens.

There are two Harvests shown in Rev. 14, one is Jesus sitting on the clouds which seems to point towards the 1 Cor. 15 meeting Jesus in the air. Then there seems to be a Harvest of the wicked where the wicked are placed in the wine-press of God. At this point the sheep and the goats are separated as are the Wheat & Tares. That means the Jews/Israel and the Wicked in both instances, not the Church which returns with Jesus Christ.


I really have no clue why people think the Six Seal somehow ends the Troubles of Israel. The Tribulation period runs from the First Seal unto the Seventh Vial.

I disagree. In fact, I could not disagree more. "The Tribulation" or Daniel's 70th week runs from the 7th seal, which is the official opening of the 70th week, to Rev. 16 and the 7th vial that ends the week.

Sorry, but the early seals, 1 through 5 are church age. If you compare with Matthew 24, he wrote, "the end is not yet." There are parallels between Matthew 24 and the first seals.

You are right here, the 6th seal certainly does not end Israel's trouble, in fact, it is the START of the Day of the Lord that prophets of old wrote about.

I think the harvests of Rev. 14 are prophetic in that they don't happen in the time frame of Rev. 14, which is just before the days of GT that Jesus spoke of. They speak of future events that will come during and after the days of GT. They are highly symbolic, in that God really will not harvest people with a sickle.

I agree there is a harvest of the righteous shown, and a harvest of the wicked shown after.

 

[Choose Wisely]

I guess you know that 70 AD happened "after" both books were written.

Therefore it did occur in the future, compared to the time when the book was recorded.

Which means absolutely nothing. We are talking about things that happen after.............

Matthew 24
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up

And it occurred after the time that Jesus uttered those words.

Well between the time that Jesus said it and 70AD I missed the part where there were wars and rumors of wars. I missed the nation rising against nation and kingdom against kingdom. I also missed the famines and pestilences and earthquakes.

Can you point all this stuff out to me. I think that it would be easier to make a bunch of more stuff up than it would be for you to face the truth and realize that you are constantly driving square pegs into round holes.

Matthew and Luke are clearly parallel accounts, which can be seen by anyone who is being honest with the text.

I won't waste my time proving all the ways that this is an incorrect statement. I gave one way......which should be enough for anyone wanting to know the truth. Obviously it's not really a challenge proving the things you are saying are incorrect as it's a constant denying of facts. So anyway, please go ahead and point out all the wars and rumors of war and nation rising against nation and kingdom against kingdom and famines and pestilences and earthquakes that occurred between when Jesus said it and 70AD.... As I said it would be far easier for you to make this stuff up than it would be to face FACTS and TRUTH.

 

[iamlamad]

I have done a multi faceted exegesis on Matthew chapter 24. I have not did one on Luke chapter 21 because its not really necessary, Jesus told them all the same things, some worded it different here and there, or remembered it a bit different but it never really changes the facts. I have read all the Gospels multiple times, but once a do an in depth study I usually stick with that, but I can show you that Luke 21 means the exact same thing as Matthew 24.

I don't seem to do anything because I never spoke of Luke, so I take it you mean my understanding of Matthew leads you to believe this in some manner. I have looked at it and there is no change in my belief. They are both the same.

(BELOW MATCHES Matthew 24:1-6)

Luke 21:6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. 9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.

{{{ Jesus is telling the Disciples about when Jerusalem will be SACKED and the Temple Destroyed here. He says many will come in my name, this fulfills......John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.......

The Pharisees and Scribes knew Rome was the Fourth Beast (AS WE DO) and thought the Little Horn would come out of her (AS IT WILL - 2000 Years later) and thus they forced/put forth christs hoping one could SAVE THEM from Rome, as the Messiah saves them from ruin just as the scriptures say (Zechariah ch. 14). So they put forth these fake christs just as Jesus had told them they would do. He thus tells his disciples, do not follow them, (go ye not after them) BUT......when you hear of wars and rumors of wars (Rome SACKING Jerusalem and destroying the Temple) do not be terrified (thinking its the end and I have RETURNED to the Mt. of Olives) these things must pass BUT THE END US BY AND BY......Or the END IS NOT YET in Matthew 24. This is about the SACKING of Jerusalem and the Temples Destruction. NOW LETS MOVE ON !! Amen. }}}

(Below Matches Matthew 24:7-14)

Luke 21:10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: 11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you (This means that before the 2000 Year Church Age is over,THAT'S WHAT THE ABOVE DESCRIBES, they shall persecute you all and Martyr most, save John basically), delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. 13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony. 14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:

15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. 16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. 17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. 18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish. 19 In your patience possess ye your souls.

{{{ So in verses 10 and 11 Luke is describing the coming 2000 Year Church Age. There will be many wars during this 2000 year period, Nation vs. Nations, Kingdoms vs. Kingdoms (MANY WARS) and many Earthquakes, Famines and sickness/pestilences. But before this 2000 year period comes to pass, they will lay hands on you, come against you, put you in jail, and many of them as we now know became Martyrs. (Amen-God Bless the Saints). This testimony that they gave and the testimony of the church via the 2000 year Church Age is what has brought the Gospel unto the WHOLE WORLD Amen. Then of course the END COMES NEXT. }}}

(Below Matches Matthew 24:15-31)

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh (End Time Event). 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled (42 Months).

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

{{{ There is ZERO DIFFERENCE in Luke 21 and Matthew 24. Luke 21:20 is of course the END TIME Abomination of Desolation event, the rest of the passage is the Tribulation Period. }}}

I too believe they are two versions of the very same discourse. I think that Jerusalem will be surrounded again in the future. I think that some will be led away captive in the future. And I think that at the last moment, Jesus will appear and save those who are left.

Matthew wrote it: "the end is not yet" meaning the things before and after were NOT end time events, but rather church age events.

Matthew 24
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

Matthew finally mentions "end" in verse 13. And he skips right over the first 3 1/2 years and begins the end time discussion with the abomination.

Luke put it: "the end is not by and by." But the meaning is the same: he has not yet begun speaking of end times.

Luk 21
8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19 In your patience possess ye your souls.

All this is church age: Luke begins the end times with Jerusalem being surrounded. Yes, of course it also happened in 70 AD. But in context, it will happen at the end of the 70th week.

 

[iamlamad]

Revealing Times wrote:

That is just your misconception brother. Jesus OPENS ALL OF THE SEALS. Jesus brings the Anti-Christ forth by opening the very First Seal. God is always symmetrical, He does nothing out of order. Just because you see the VISION John SAW as written down, and see when the people on earth understand they are in Gods Wrath (the Lambs Wrath) that doesn't mean that every Seal is not Gods Wrath.

Sorry, but the misconception is on your side here. Of course it will be Jesus who opens all the seals, because He was found worthy. But IN CONTEXT (this seems to be a concept many here ignore) Jesus opened the first 5 seals as soon as He ascended.

I guess you think the martyrs of the church age got martyrs because God was angry at them? How silly! God was not in wrath at the martyrs of the 5th seal. That seal was opened during the early church age - at the very beginning. Stephen was a part of those under the altar.

Please show us even one word in the first seal that would give you the slightest hint that God's wrath is involved. Or one word that any kind of evil is involved. I want to see what words give you any hint of the antichrist in the first seal. John used the color white 17 other times in Revelation. Can you find just one other use that would be evil instead of righteousness? No one else can.

Can you determine any kind of timing of the first seal being opened by the context? I can. It was opened around 32 or 33 AD. Do you imagine jesus was meaning to expose the Antichrst in 32 AD?

I will agree that God is a God of order. John does not mention wrath until the 6th seal, and for good reason: the 5th seal has nothing to do with God's wrath: we are in the age of Grace, and God is holding back judgment and wrath. Neither is there any wrath at the first seal, which is the gospel being taken to the nations. Neither is God angry during the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th seal, for those represent the devil trying to stop the advance of the gospel.

You really should try to understand the intent of he Author in chapters 4 & 5 which establish the context for the first seals.