Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable

[Zeena]

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Hrrm, I'll have to look at the posts of yours quoted that I've yet to read, tomorrow, for I'm off to bed.

Thanks for the links, pray I don't forget (I'll also pray)

As for the verse quoted above, as it is the only one quoted (in this post) that mentions 'tormented day and night for ever and ever', I must ask, where are men mentioned here? All I notice here are the devil, the beast and false prophet..

The Judgment of men doesn't actually begin until verse 12, correct?

In verse 9 the earth still stands and people are as yet unJudged, no?

Quite a time-lapse in three verses, wouldn't you say?

Ne ways, sweet dreams love

 

[Der Alte]

Hrrm, I'll have to look at the posts of yours quoted that I've yet to read, tomorrow, for I'm off to bed.

Thanks for the links, pray I don't forget (I'll also pray)

As for the verse quoted above, as it is the only one quoted (in this post) that mentions 'tormented day and night for ever and ever', I must ask, where are men mentioned here? All I notice here are the devil, the beast and false prophet..

The Judgment of men doesn't actually begin until verse 12, correct?

To correctly interpret Rev 20:10, or any other verse, we must read all other vss. which speak on the same topic. For example, the vss. I quoted is Rev 14:11. Here is every vs. which speaks of the Lake of Fire (LOF), in Rev.

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

What happens in the LOF? See vs. 20:10! "shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

In verse 9 the earth still stands and people are as yet unJudged, no?

Quite a time-lapse in three verses, wouldn't you say?

Ne ways, sweet dreams love

Seems to me you are trying to play word games. Actually when John was writing the earth was still standing. The ones who lived at the time of John were still living, sinning, etc. Note how the temporal reference changes several times in these 5 vss.

Rev 14:9-13
(9) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, (present tense)
(10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: (future tense)
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (present tense, altho in the future, see vs. 10)
(12) Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. (present tense)
(13) And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.(present tense)​

 

[Der Alte]

To correctly interpret Rev 20:10, or any other verse, we must read all other vss. which speak on the same topic. For example, the vss. I quoted is Rev 14:11. Here is every vs. which speaks of the Lake of Fire (LOF), in Rev.

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

What happens in the LOF? See vs. 20:10! "shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Seems to me you are trying to play word games. Actually when John was writing the earth was still standing. The ones who lived at the time of John were still living, sinning, etc. Note how the temporal reference changes several times in these 5 vss.

Rev 14:9-13
(9) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, (present tense)
(10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: (future tense)
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (present tense, altho in the future, see vs. 10)
(12) Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. (present tense)
(13) And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.(present tense)​

Note vs. 14 above.

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

If the torment of the unrighteous does not endure for ever and ever, then God does not live for ever and ever, John uses the exact same words for both.

Rev 4:9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

Rev 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.​

 

[Der Alte]

Note vs. 14 above.

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

If the torment of the unrighteous does not endure for ever and ever, then God does not live for ever and ever, John uses the exact same words for both.

Rev 4:9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

Rev 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.​

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

 

[JCchangedmylife]

http://www.preservedwords.com/images/underworld.gif

 

[JCchangedmylife]

Thief on the cross

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Parable. Although, there's no reason to believe that something similar had happened and Jesus was merely reconstructing it in story form.

What's interesting to me is that people argue against the pain and permanance of hell, and yet here's Jesus direct words describing that place. Even though it may not of been His direct intention to teach on the conditions of hell, He nevertheless would not mislead us either by introducing falsified information.

Go Cards!

Good post bro!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I forgot all about this thread

original OP:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7306890-53/#post49298833

 

[Jig]

At it's most basic definition a parable is a simple story illustrating a moral or religious lesson.

parable - definition of parable by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

Why must a parable be fictitious? Is it fair to ask if this is a parable OR a true story when it could be a parable AND a true story?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

At it's most basic definition a parable is a simple story illustrating a moral or religious lesson.

parable - definition of parable by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

Why must a parable be fictitious? Is it fair to ask if this is a parable OR a true story when it could be a parable AND a true story?

I can believe it could be both
But couldn't it also imply being "covenantle"?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Interesting thread!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I wish I could change this to a poll thread....sigh

 

[Optimax]

True story.

Jesus said there was a certain rich man.

He named names, Lazarus, Abraham

He gave details of what happens when people die before the cross.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

True story.

Jesus said there was a certain rich man.

He named names, Lazarus, Abraham

He gave details of what happens when people die before the cross.

Thank you.
Lazarus is indeed mentioned in the NT as the first one to be resurrected by Jesus after 3 days, just as those 2 wintesses in Revelation are resurrected after 3 days! Kewl!

http://www.christianforums.com/t7461118/#post54553876
Lazarus and 2 witnesses of Reve 11 similarity

John 11:39 Jesus is saying "take away ye! the stone".
Is saying to Him, Martha, the sister of the one having deceased "Lord, already he stinking, for it is fourth-day"
43 And these saying, to a voice great He cries-out "Lazarus, hither out!"
44 and he who died came forth, being bound feet and hands with grave-clothes, and his visage with a napkin was bound about; Jesus saith to them, "loose him, and suffer to go.'

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

True story.

Jesus said there was a certain rich man.

He named names, Lazarus, Abraham

He gave details of what happens when people die before the cross.

My thoughts exactly. When Jesus is using a parable he says this or that is like unto, then states the parable.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

My thoughts exactly. When Jesus is using a parable he says this or that is like unto, then states the parable.

Thank you for posting your thoughts

 

[HolyGuardianAngels]

Greetings. How do others view that story Jesus told to the Jews in Luke 16 concerning the rich-man and lazarus. A parable or true story? This is one of the largest studies I have of the NT/NC.

I myself humbly view it as a "Covenantle" parable, but would like to here views from other fellow Christians of it. Thanks.......

Matthew 3:9 "And no ye should be thinking to say in yourselves 'a Father we are having, the Abraham'. For I am saying unto ye, that is able the God out of the Stones, these, to raise-up offsprings/children to the Abraham. [Luke 3:8/16:24]

Luke 16:24 And he sounding said: "Father Abraham! be thou merciful to-me! and send Lazarus!, that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water, and should be cooling down the tongue of me,--that I am being pained in the Flame,this."

IMO: It is a TRUE story. God can do anything He pleases except break the commandments.
Plus in America it happens everyday. The homeless lie without work, at the financial gates of the super rich and get crumbs.

Lazrus had what could be called his last meal with God; only it was his last conversation with Him.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

IMO: It is a TRUE story. God can do anything He pleases except break the commandments.
Plus in America it happens everyday. The homeless lie without work, at the financial gates of the super rich and get crumbs.

Lazrus had what could be called his last meal with God; only it was his last conversation with Him.

Thank you for responding