Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable

[Der Alte]

I have said more than once that I cannot find any significance to anyone having five brothers in the OT. Supposedly the five bro's in Luke 16 refer to Judah, I think, who had five brothers by the same mother. If this was in any way significant or important it is certainly not mentioned anywhere in the OT.

Tho divinely significant, the OT doesn't assume to contain all that is significant.

So we just have to plod along hoping we get it right or waiting for some Jim Jones, David Koresh, etc. to come along and tell us which heretofore insignificant fact in the OT, is in fact very significant and only they know it? For example, the tent pin which Heber's wife, Jael, drove through Sisera's temple might have some very important significance that only somebody with some great esoteric spiritual revelation will explain to me, someday. Koolaid anyone?

 

[RND]

I have said more than once that I cannot find any significance to anyone having five brothers in the OT.

You don't find any significance that Judah actually had five blood brothers? Do you think the Jews (Pharisees) that were listening to Jesus would have?

Supposedly the five bro's in Luke 16 refer to Judah, I think, who had five brothers by the same mother. If this was in any way significant or important it is certainly not mentioned anywhere in the OT.

I personally find it quite illuminating that Jesus mentioned this while talking to Jews. I doubt the Jews that heard this thought it was an insignificant reference.

 

[Duckybill]

No thank you!

I'd much rather believe GOD.

Enjoy.

Revelation 14:10-11 (NKJV)
10 He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

You are reading INTO the text hon, this is a no-no in proper exegesis..

So now, I ask AGAIN, where does the text (in question) say 'eternal', as you have, or does it? I tell you, it does not! And you are hereby adding to the Word of God!

Matthew 25:46 (NKJV)
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Hell is not yet lit, and won't be 'lit' until the Lord Jesus comes again in Glory. Surely we can agree on this fact?
Therefore, the place (Hades) which you are reading about as having FLAME is not hell, which has ETERNAL HELL FIRE.

Luke 16:24-26 (NKJV)
24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'

What, did you think Hades was some picnic park for the wicked dead? Did you honestly think I believed that the wicked are REWARDED rather than HELD for the Righteous Judgment of God? Again, as Scripture clearly indicates;

If you believe the wicked will be eternally destroyed then you certainly do believe they will be blessed with eternal peace.

I think this should suffice, IF you are being reasonable, WHICH I have yet to see from you..

But if not, here is some study material (from VARIOUS authors) on the matter;

HELL - Why was it made? - ChristianAnswers.Net

The Flame in Hades

The Bible Truth About Hades and Hell Fire

Did Jesus go to hell between His death and resurrection?

That's where most err. They don't stick with the Bible. They prefer to read opinions they agree with.

Not ONE of them are in agreement with your interpretation and addition to the Scriptures, hon. so may I at LEAST recommend a thorough study on the subject of your own volition?

You're the one doing the interpreting. I just believe God. Punishment in the fire is real whether we like it or not. God doesn't ask our opinions.

Mark 9:43-48 (NKJV)
43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched-- 44 where 'Their worm does not die,And the fire is not quenched.' 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched-- 46 where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.' 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire-- 48 where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'

 

[RND]

Enjoy.

Revelation 14:10-11 (NKJV)
10 He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

"...in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb...." So let me get this straight. You think the angels and Jesus are in hell watching people get tortured? Really? You believe that?

 

[Zeena]

Enjoy.

Revelation 14:10-11 (NKJV)
10 He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
Matthew 25:46 (NKJV)
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Luke 16:24-26 (NKJV)
24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
If you believe the wicked will be eternally destroyed then you certainly do believe they will be blessed with eternal peace.
That's where most err. They don't stick with the Bible. They prefer to read opinions they agree with.
You're the one doing the interpreting. I just believe God. Punishment in the fire is real whether we like it or not. God doesn't ask our opinions.

Mark 9:43-48 (NKJV)
43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched-- 44 where 'Their worm does not die,And the fire is not quenched.' 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched-- 46 where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.' 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire-- 48 where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'

Umm, now ur not (only) reading into the Biblical text, but adding to my posts as well huh?

1 Corinthians 15:33
Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.

When did I say hell fire consumes the person?
When did I ever ONCE imply the wicked are annihilated?

How's about actually responding to my post, that is, WHAT I ACTUALLY WROTE?!?

Ezekiel 34:20-22
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD unto them; Behold, I, even I, will judge between the fat cattle and between the lean cattle. Because ye have thrust with side and with shoulder, and pushed all the diseased with your horns, till ye have scattered them abroad; Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle.

I wrote that the word hades is not gehenna, nor tartaroo..
So tell us, all mighty interpreter, why are three spearate words translated hell? Are we to go on to expound on three levels, like the 'heavens' now, thereby ADDING to what it written? OR, are they three separate, individual places, as is written?

 

[martymonster]

Deliberately misrepresenting scripture! Jesus only spoke to the unsaved multitudes in parables. He spoke to his disciples plainly. If everything Jesus ever said was a parable then half the gospels would be the parable and the other half the explanation. Jesus spoke plainly quite a bit more often than he did in parables. Christians are disciples NOT the unsaved multitudes and Jesus' words to us are very plain.

Don't suppose you would like to back this statement up with scripture would you?

And to answer you question, no half of scripture is not a parable and the other half a explaination.

All of it is a parable and all of it is an explaination, and as for how it is uncovered.

Here's a hint for you.


Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: , for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto theebut my Father which is in heaven.


Mat 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.


In other words, it doesn't matter how much study you do and how many bible colleges you go to, if God doesn't reveal the meaning of scripture to you your dead in the water!

Unless you think Him who has an ear mean's anyone with a physical ear.

 

[Der Alte]

You don't find any significance that Judah actually had five blood brothers? Do you think the Jews (Pharisees) that were listening to Jesus would have?
I personally find it quite illuminating that Jesus mentioned this while talking to Jews. I doubt the Jews that heard this thought it was an insignificant reference.

Jesus was NOT talking to the Pharisees, he was talking to his disciples, Luke 16:1, 17:1. Why do you continue to ignore that? I have told you several times. At one point in 16:14 the Pharisees happened to overhear what Jesus said to his disciples.

I find it illuminating that all false religious groups bend over backwards trying to find some hidden esoteric meaning in every word that Jesus spoke and ignore the literal words he actually said. What you "doubt" or what you are "sure" of is irrelevant. Please show us from OT scripture some special significance to the fact that Judah had five brothers by the same mother. Show us from NT scripture where, other than than your assumption re: Luke 16, there is any reference or significance to Judah having 5 brothers by the same mother?

 

[Der Alte]

Don't suppose you would like to back this statement up with scripture would you?

My scripture is the one you posted.

Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:​

This says Jesus spoke to the unsaved multitude in parables. It does not say he spoke to everybody, in parables, all the time. His disciples were saved, they were not part of the unsaved multitude.

Joh 16:25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
[ . . . ]
Joh 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.​

Jesus spoke to his disciples in plain language and his disciples spoke to us in plain language in their writings.

And to answer you question, no half of scripture is not a parable and the other half a explaination.

All of it is a parable and all of it is an explaination, and as for how it is uncovered.

Here's a hint for you.

Please show me scripture which states that "All of it [NT] is a parable and all of it [NT] is an explaination?" There is none. That is the same false doctrine Jim Jones and David Koresh and other unscrupulous people used to enslave others!

Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: , for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto theebut my Father which is in heaven.

God revealed one thing to Peter on one occasion! This says nothing whatsoever about all scripture having to be revealed by God, to everyone at all times. God revealed his will to everyone of us in the Holy scripture.

Mat 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

You are trying to twist this totally out of its context. This was spoken by Jesus only in reference to John coming in the spirit of Elijah and his audience were Jews.

In other words, it doesn't matter how much study you do and how many bible colleges you go to, if God doesn't reveal the meaning of scripture to you your dead in the water!

Please show me scripture which says God must reveal the meaning of all scripture to everyone? This is a false teaching used by heretics like Jim Jones, David Koresh, etc.

Unless you think Him who has an ear mean's anyone with a physical ear.

[/QUOTE]

Irrelevant! You are taking one verse totally out-of-context. Show me from scripture that it does not refer to physical ears?

 

[RND]

Jesus was NOT talking to the Pharisees, he was talking to his disciples, Luke 16:1, 17:1.

Um, yes He WAS! Had you actually bothered to read Luke 16 you would know this.

Luk 16:14 ¶ And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him. 15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

"He said unto them..." What does that mean to you? "He said unto them..." Is this something you can comprehend? Why do you insist on misstating the obvious? Was Jesus saying to His disciples that, "Ye are they which justify yourselves before men"? Can you not understand this exchange and who it involved? Seriously? Why do you insist in putting yourself in this position of being shown to be completely oblivious to what this exchange was all about? You are embarrassing yourself quite frankly.

Why do you continue to ignore that?

Why do you seem to have a major problem understanding plain English?

I have told you several times. At one point in 16:14 the Pharisees happened to overhear what Jesus said to his disciples.

"He said unto them..."

I find it illuminating that all false religious groups bend over backwards trying to find some hidden esoteric meaning in every word that Jesus spoke and ignore the literal words he actually said. What you "doubt" or what you are "sure" of is irrelevant.

"He said unto them..."

Please show us from OT scripture some special significance to the fact that Judah had five brothers by the same mother.

Because Jesus would later use this fact in a parable while talking with the Jewish religious leaders of His day?

Show us from NT scripture where, other than than your assumption re: Luke 16, there is any reference or significance to Judah having 5 brothers by the same mother?

Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

 

[Der Alte]

Um, yes He WAS! Had you actually bothered to read Luke 16 you would know this.

Luk 16:14 ¶ And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him. 15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Um, NO he wasn't! Why do you continue to ignore and pervert scripture? Do you actually think you are teaching truth by doing this? You ignored Luke 16:1 and misrepresented the 2 vss. you did quote. Deliberate false exegesis of scripture.

Luk 16:1 And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.​

Can your read and comprehend this? Who is Jesus talking to? Then vs. 14 "the Pharisees also, . . .heard all these things: and they derided him" The Pharisees happened to overhear what Jesus was saying to his disciples and they began to deride him, then vs. 15 he addressed their objections. Can you understand that or should I explain it further?

"He said unto them..." What does that mean to you? "He said unto them..." Is this something you can comprehend? Why do you insist on misstating the obvious? Was Jesus saying to His disciples that, "Ye are they which justify yourselves before men"? Can you not understand this exchange and who it involved? Seriously? Why do you insist in putting yourself in this position of being shown to be completely oblivious to what this exchange was all about? You are embarrassing yourself quite frankly.

I am not the one who is deliberately ignoring and perverting scripture and you are the one who should be embarrassed. But I'm certain you cannot recognize and acknowledge your blatant error. Your dishonest misrepresentation here is almost certainly deliberate since I have explained this more than once before.

Why do you seem to have a major problem understanding plain English?

"He said unto them..."
"He said unto them..."

I have no problem at all understanding plain English but I do see a huge honesty and integrity problem here. Yes Jesus said to them , the Pharisees, AFTER they butted into his discussion with his disciples and began to deride him. Let me know if you ever recognize that fact?

Because Jesus would later use this fact in a parable while talking with the Jewish religious leaders of His day?

Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

Since your understanding of vss. 1 and 14 is either deliberately dishonest or flawed your conclusion is false.

 

[Duckybill]

"...in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb...." So let me get this straight. You think the angels and Jesus are in hell watching people get tortured? Really? You believe that?

Make fun if you like, but it is clear that there will be those who will be in torment forever.

"11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night"

 

[Duckybill]

Umm, now ur not (only) reading into the Biblical text, but adding to my posts as well huh?

1 Corinthians 15:33
Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.

When did I say hell fire consumes the person?
When did I ever ONCE imply the wicked are annihilated?

Now would be a good time to explain just what you do believe about Hell and eternal punishment.

How's about actually responding to my post, that is, WHAT I ACTUALLY WROTE?!?

Ezekiel 34:20-22
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD unto them; Behold, I, even I, will judge between the fat cattle and between the lean cattle. Because ye have thrust with side and with shoulder, and pushed all the diseased with your horns, till ye have scattered them abroad; Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle.

I wrote that the word hades is not gehenna, nor tartaroo..
So tell us, all mighty interpreter, why are three spearate words translated hell? Are we to go on to expound on three levels, like the 'heavens' now, thereby ADDING to what it written? OR, are they three separate, individual places, as is written?

The NT teaches eternal punishment in FIRE. So do you believe it or not?

Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matthew 25:46 (NKJV)
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

 

[Zeena]

Now would be a good time to explain just what you do believe about Hell and eternal punishment.
The NT teaches eternal punishment in FIRE. So do you believe it or not?

I don't know how much simpler I could have made this, but, here you go;

From what I've come to understand through study [but in no way is it possible for me to know, with certainty, this side of Heaven] Sheol, the abode of the dead, is what Jesus decended into, into a specific compartment (Paradise) reserved for all who did good in thier lives [the Patriarch's and Prophets obviously among them]. He' preached to those in prison', and 'lead captivity captive', He bought Paradise with Him, to Heaven, the 'souls under the altar'..

Hades, the opposite side of the abyss (that great chasm that separated the 'rich man' from Abraham) [in which (the abyss) are the fallen angels, reserved in chains of everlasting darkness 'till judgment], is the abode of the dead who were unrighteous and practiced lawlessness.

These, and they in the Abyss will be thrown into the Lake of Fire, which is prepared, but not yet kindled.

It is not possible, as some here have alluded, that the Lake of Fire is eternal, for eternal, by definition, consists of having BOTH no beginning AND no ending.

It burns forever and ever, but it has a melting point, so to speak-meh

Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matthew 25:46 (NKJV)
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Now it's my turn to ask of you Duckybill, tid for tad, no?

Has the Judgement happened already?

If NOT, then how can Lazarus be in Paradise and the other (rich man) be in Hades, which you seem to be determined to equate with HELL?

Are souls Judged according to their death-day, or are they Judged when Jesus comes again in Glory?

Yes, it is appointed man once to die and THEN the Judgement..

But do agree that Jesus must come again to Judge?

OR, Has He already come again?

And He shall come again with glory
to judge the living and the dead;

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.

 

[Duckybill]

I don't know how much simpler I could have made this, but, here you go;

So you don't believe anyone will spend eternity in torment in fire?

Now it's my turn to ask of you Duckybill, tid for tad, no?

Has the Judgement happened already?

No.

If NOT, then how can Lazarus be in Paradise and the other (rich man) be in Hades, which you seem to be determined to equate with HELL?

Lazarus was saved, the rich man was not. Pretty simple. Lazarus was comforted, the rich man was tormented in the flame. If you figure out the 'how' let us know.

Are souls Judged according to their death-day, or are they Judged when Jesus comes again in Glory?

Obviously both.

Yes, it is appointed man once to die and THEN the Judgement..

But do agree that Jesus must come again to Judge?

OR, Has He already come again?

Yes He will come in Judgment and to judge in the future.

 

[Zeena]

So you don't believe anyone will spend eternity in torment in fire?

Not the same way you do, obviously.

No.

Good.

Lazarus was saved, the rich man was not. Pretty simple. Lazarus was comforted, the rich man was tormented in the flame.

The only 'way' Lararus was saved is by being ressurected in his body, not yet glorified I might add. The only way the rich man was not is that he was left in hades in the flame (note; once again, flame is not fire but rather flames START fires-Isaiah 30:33;Luke 12:49), knowing full well his loved ones would soon be joining him.

If you figure out the 'how' let us know.

It is not possible Lazarus was saved and the rich man sent to hell, for Jesus had not been risen and the Judgement is still to come.

Obviously both.

Impossible;

Acts 17:31
Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Yes He will come in Judgment and to judge in the future.

Then how say you the rich man suffered the eternal fires of hell in Hades, if the fire is not yet kindled?

 

[martymonster]

Here is a couple of contradictions for the ET camp that I find rather amusing.

I'd like to see what someone makes of it.


2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:


Oops!

Someones telling a big fat falsehood, who do you think it is?

Actually, it's not a contradiction but the word everlasting makes it out to be one.

 

[Zeena]

Here is a couple of contradictions for the ET camp that I find rather amusing.

I'd like to see what someone makes of it.

Well, I might not be somethings, but I'm a someone!

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Personally, I take this as a 'pushing away from' the presence of God into the fires of hell. there are other veses that speak along these lines, which is one reason I've come to assume so..

Revelation 20:15, for example, says;
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

I take 'cast' to be a forceful act of God. I "cast my rod", is to say that I threw the line from me into the water.. A good synonym would be throw, ergo, imo. Though 'cast' is the word used, and we both know we LOSE when we cast your ROD into the water, as it's actually the line that is to be thrown.

Saint Paul spoke of being a 'castaway', which is, imo, indicative of the Greek 'mood' in my mind, as pertains to the 'mood' of 'cast' into the lake of fire. Perhaps not the same outcome, but the same 'mood'.

Rev 14:10
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

I take this verse to mean that all men will be Judged by God when Jesus comes again in Glory, every man being held responsable for himself before God. The Lord Jesus rewarding every man according to his works on the Day Jesus comes again.

For we shall all be changed, in the twinkling of an eye..

Although it might seem strange to reckon reward as punishment, I am often inclined to do so after reading certain Scripture verses in their context. Such as

Acts 1:18
Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.

2 timothy 4:14
Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:

Hebrews 2:2
For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;

2 Peter 2:13
And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;

Revelation 22:12
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Oops!
Someones telling a big fat falsehood, who do you think it is?

Actually, it's not a contradiction but the word everlasting makes it out to be one.

How so? I'd like to hear your explanation too, please, seeing as this subject is relevant to the discussion of the afterlife indicative in Lazarus and the rich man story.

Also, I'd like to add if I may..

I do not find this (doctrine of Eternal Torment, or "ET" as you so aptly described it) to be a contentious subject. If one does not agree with another regarding something that's NOT HAPPENED YET, I see no reason for judgement.

As well, these forums (of which I am proud, praise God!) do not condone judgmental attitudes over such trivial matters as these (in most cases, sadly not all).

However, I believe the Lord gave us solid teaching of the afterlife, at least how is was, before He was raised up in Glory, in the story of Lazarus and the rich man.

 

[Der Alte]

Here is a couple of contradictions for the ET camp that I find rather amusing.

I'd like to see what someone makes of it.

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

If one is "destroyed" he is not in the presence of anything or anyone, not just God. Paul was not using destruction in the sense of annihilated, not existing, etc.

Robertson Word Pictures - Eternal destruction (olethron aiōnion). Accusative case in apposition with dikēn (penalty). This phrase does not appear elsewhere in the N.T., but is in 4 Maccabees 10:15 ton aiōnion tou turannou olethron the eternal destruction of the tyrant (Antiochus Epiphanes). Destruction (cf. 1Th_5:3) does not mean here annihilation, but, as Paul proceeds to show, separation from the face of the Lord (apo prosōpou tou kuriou) and from the glory of his might (kai apo tēs doxēs tēs ischuos autou), an eternity of woe such as befell Antiochus Epiphanes. Aiōnios in itself only means age-long and papyri and inscriptions give it in the weakened sense of a Caesar’s life (Milligan), but Paul means by age-long the coming age in contrast with this age, as eternal as the New Testament knows how to make it. See note on Mat_25:46 for use of aiōnios both with zōēn, life, and kolasin, punishment.
​

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Oops!

Someones telling a big fat falsehood, who do you think it is?

Actually, it's not a contradiction but the word everlasting makes it out to be one.

As you have noted, no contradiction.

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

10,000 eons times 10,000 eons from now God's unchanging word will still say, "the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night."

The definition of the word translated "destruction." Note the several definitions which clearly speak of temporal things in earthly life.

ἀπόλλυμι for its conj. s. Bl-D. §101 ( s.v. o[llumi ); Rob. 317; fut. ajpolevsw Hs 8, 7, 5, Att. ajpolw` 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14 ); 1 aor. ajpwvlesa ; 1 pf. ajpolwvleka ; fut. mid. ajpolou`mai Lk 13:3 ; 2 aor. ajpwlovmhn ; the 2 pf. ajpovlwla serves as a pf. mid ., ptc. ajpolwlwv" ( Hom. +; inscr. , pap. , LXX , En. , Philo , Joseph. , Test. 12 Patr. ).

1. act .— a. ruin, destroy.
a. of pers. (Sir 10:3 ) Mk 1:24 ; Lk 4:34 . W. ref. to eternal destruction mh; ejkei`non ajpovllue do not bring about his ruin Ro 14:15 . Esp. kill, put to death (Gen 20:4 ; Esth 9:6 v.l .; 1 Macc 2:37 ; Jos. , C. Ap. 1, 122) Hs 9, 26, 7. paidivon Mt 2:13 ; Jesus 12:14 ; 27:20 ; Mk 3:6 ; 11:18 ; Lk 19:47 ; B 12:5; the wicked tenants kakou;" kakw`" aj. ( s. kakov" 1a) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death Mt 21:41 . tou;" gewrgouv" Mk 12:9 ; Lk 20:16 ; t. fonei`" Mt 22:7 ; t. mh; pisteuvsanta" those who did not believe Jd 5 ; pavnta" Lk 17:27 , 29 . W. sw`sai (1ike Charito 2, 8, 1) Js 4:12 ; Hs 9, 23, 4. Of eternal death ( Herm. Wr. 4, 7) yuch;n k. sw`ma aj. ejn geevnnh/ Mt 10:28 ; yuchvn B 20:1; t. yucav" Hs 9, 26, 3 ( cf. Sir 20:22 ).
b. w. impers. obj. aj. t. sofivan t. sofw`n destroy the wisdom of the wise 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14 ). aj. t. diavnoian destroy the understanding Hm 11:1.— g. without obj. J 10:10 .
b. lose ( X. , Pla. +; PPetr. III 51, 5; POxy. 743, 23; PFay. 111, 3 ff ; Sir 6:3 ; 9:6 ; 27:16 et al .; Tob 7:6 BA; 4 Macc 2:14 ) t. misqovn lose the reward Mt 10:42 ; Mk 9:41 ; Hs 5, 6, 7. dracmhvn ( Dio Chrys. 70[20], 25) Lk 15:8 f ; aj. a} hjrgasavmeqa lose what we have worked for 2J 8 . diaqhvkhn B 4:6, 8. th;n zwh;n t. ajnqrwvpwn Hm 2:1; cf. s 8, 6, 6; 8, 7, 5; 8, 8, 2 f and 5. th;n ejlpivda m 5, 1, 7.— W . colloqu. flavor i{na pa`n o} devdwkevn moi mhv ajpolevsw ejx aujtou` that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me J 6:39 ( Bl-D. §466, 3; Rob. 437; 753).— aj. th;n yuchvn ( cf. Sir 20:22 ) lose one’s life Mt 10:39 ; 16:25 ; Mk 8:35 ; Lk 9:24 ; 17:33 ; cf. J 12:25 . For this aj. eJautovn lose oneself Lk 9:25 (similar in form is Tyrtaeus Lyr. [VII BC ], fgm. 8 Diehl 2 lines 12 ff : ‘The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it&#8217.

2. mid .— a. be destroyed, ruined.
a. of pers. perish, die ( schol. on Nicander , Ther. 188 ajpovllutai oJ ajnhvr =the man dies) 1 Cl 51:5; 55:6; B 5:4, 12; D 16:5; Hs 6, 2, 1 f. As a cry of anguish ajpolluvmeqa we are perishing! ( PPetr. II 4, 4 nuni; de; ajpolluvmeqa ) Mt 8:25 ; Mk 4:38 ; Lk 8:24 ( Arrian , Peripl. 3, 3 of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer). ejn macaivrh/ aj. die by the sword Mt 26:52 . limw`/ of hunger (Ezk 34:29 ) Lk 15:17 . th`/ ajntilogiva/ tou` Kovre Jd 11 c (because of 11a and b it should perh. = be corrupted; cf. Polyb. 32, 23, 6). uJpo; tino" ( Hdt. 5. 126; Dio Chrys. 13[7], 12) uJpo; t. of me killed by the snakes 1 Cor 10:9 ; cf. vs. 1 0. Abs. of a people perish J 11:50 . Of individuals (Lev 23:30 ) Ac 5:37 ; 2 Pt 3:9 ; 1 Cl 12:6; 39:5 (Job 4:20 ).—Esp. of eternal death ( cf. Ps 9:6 f ; 36:20; 67:3 ; 91:10 ; Is 41:11 ) J 3:16 ; 17:12 . ajpolevsqai eij" to;n aijw`na perish forever 10:28 (Bar 3:3 hJmei`" ajpolluvmenoi to;n aijw`na). ajnovmw" aj. Ro 2:12 ; mwrw`" aj. IEph 17:2; ejn kauchvsei because of boasting ITr 4:1; cf. IPol 5:2. Abs. 1 Cor 8:11 ; 15:18 ; 2 Cl 17:1.— oiJ ajpolluvmenoi ( opp. oiJ sw/zovmenoi , like Plut. , Mor. 469 D ) those who are lost 1 Cor 1:18 ; 2 Cor 2:15 ; 4:3 ; 2 Th 2:10 ; 2 Cl 1:4; 2:5. For this to; ajpolwlov" Lk 19:10 (Mt 18:11 —Ezk 34:4 , 16 ). ta; ajpolluvmena 2 Cl 2:7 ( cf. Dit., Syll. 3 417, 9 ta; te ajpolwlovta ejk t. iJerou` ajnevswsan ). b. of things be lost, pass away, be ruined ( Jos. , Bell. 2, 650 of Jerusalem) of bursting wineskins Mk 9:17 ; Mk 2:22 ; Lk 5:37 ; fading beauty Js 1:11 ; transitory beauty of gold 1 Pt 1:7 ; passing splendor Rv 18:14 ( w. ajpov as Jer 10:11 ; Da 7:17 ). Of earthly food J 6:27 ; spoiled honey Hm 5, 1, 5. Of the heavens which, like the earth, will pass away Hb 1:11 (Ps 101:27 ). Of the end of the world Hv 4, 3, 3, Of the way of the godless, which is lost in darkness B 11:7 (Ps 1:6 ).
b. be lost (Antipho 54 Diels, Vorsokrat. ajpolovmenon ajrguvrion ; X. , Symp. 1, 5; 1 Km 9:3 ) ISm 10:1. Of falling hair Lk 21:18 ; Ac 27:34 ; a member or organ of the body Mt 5:29 f ; remnants of food J 6:12 . Of wine that has lost its flavor Hm 12, 5, 3.—Of sheep gone astray Mt 10:6 ; 15:24 ; Lk 15:4 , 6 ; B 5:12 ( cf. Jer 27:6 ; Ezk 34:4 ; Ps 118:176 ). Of a lost son Lk 15:24 ( Artem. 4, 33 hJ gunhv. . . t. uiJo;n ajpwvlese kai. . . eu|ren aujtovn .—JSchniewind, D. Gleichn. vom verl. Sohn ’40). aj. qew`/ be lost to God Hs 8, 6, 4. M-M. B. 758; 766.

A Greek-English Lexicon Gingrich & Danker​

 

[Zeena]

Der Alter, I've seen you argue along these lines in a few other threads, and I have a few questions, if you don't mind..?

When God says, through Scripture 'the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever' [to paraphrase], is it possible this is indicative of the suffering they underwent in the Judgment, rather than them burning alive forever and ever, as I haven't noticed people being burned alive forever and ever written anywhere in Verse.. What I see, rather, is "twice dead" and "second death".. 'Twice dead' actually being a refferance to living persons (or fallen angels, depending on your take, nevertheless, alive [to sin]).

Revelation 3:1
And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Also in that same verse, when God tells us 'they have no rest day or night', He goes on to say that these are they "who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." the "worship" there, why is it in the "present tense"? Do they 'worship' the beast in hell fire too? And "receiveth" there is also present tense, isn't it? Do they recieve the mark of the beast before or after the Judgement of God?

'Tis a very confusing subject, to be sure. And I have seen little edification values in it apart from retribution against those who have sinned against God and done evil to us and our loved ones, including the world, so, I've often avoided the issue altogether.. But, I'm curious as to what you make of this seeing as you are so vehemently engrossed in the subject.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Der Alte]

Der Alter, I've seen you argue along these lines in a few other threads, and I have a few questions, if you don't mind..?

When God says, through Scripture 'the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever' [to paraphrase], is it possible this is indicative of the suffering they underwent in the Judgment, rather than them burning alive forever and ever, as I haven't noticed people being burned alive forever and ever written anywhere in Verse.. What I see, rather, is "twice dead" and "second death".. 'Twice dead' actually being a refferance to living persons (or fallen angels, depending on your take, nevertheless, alive [to sin]).

Revelation 3:1
And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Also in that same verse, when God tells us 'they have no rest day or night', He goes on to say that these are they "who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." the "worship" there, why is it in the "present tense"? Do they 'worship' the beast in hell fire too? And "receiveth" there is also present tense, isn't it? Do they recieve the mark of the beast before or after the Judgement of God?

'Tis a very confusing subject, to be sure. And I have seen little edification values in it apart from retribution against those who have sinned against God and done evil to us and our loved ones, including the world, so, I've often avoided the issue altogether.. But, I'm curious as to what you make of this seeing as you are so vehemently engrossed in the subject.

First here are some of my previous posts in this thread addressing this topic. Two posts, back to back, twenty eight passages spoken by Jesus in the order they occur in the N.T., addressing eternal punishment. Click Link!

Previous post, the Jewish view of eternal punishment of the unrighteous. Click Link!

Previous post the early church and eternal punishment. Click Link!

Previous post citing the Talmud the teaching of Hillel and Shammai in Israel at the time of Jesus on eternal punishment. Click Link!

Concerning the verse you asked about.

Rev 14:10-11
(10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

John is writing prophecy. Those who now worship the beast, etc., after the judgment, they "shall be tormented with fire," vs. 10.

This verse says nothing about, "suffering they underwent in the Judgment." Millions of years from now the unchanging word of God will still say, "the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night." Whatever the unrighteous are experiencing it will last as long as the four beasts and the multitude serving God before the throne. And the torment will last as long as the torment of the devil, the beast, and the false prophet.

Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​