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Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable

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Gnarwhal

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I think it's a parable. Personally I think Christ was trying to explain how the rich man's hardened heart, represented by the great chasm, is why he didn't arrive at Abraham's side in the afterlife like Lazarus did. The hardness of his heart even then was evident by the fact that he still demanded the hierarchy that he lived in life, in Hades where it doesn't exist—pleading with Abraham to have Lazarus serve him (water).

I believe the parable was used to illustrate how C.S. Lewis would later describe as "the gates of hell are locked from the inside".
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I think it's a parable. Personally I think Christ was trying to explain how the rich man's hardened heart, represented by the great chasm, is why he didn't arrive at Abraham's side in the afterlife like Lazarus did. The hardness of his heart even then was evident by the fact that he still demanded the hierarchy that he lived in life, in Hades where it doesn't exist—pleading with Abraham to have Lazarus serve him (water).

I believe the parable was used to illustrate how C.S. Lewis would later describe as "the gates of hell are locked from the inside".
Good post bro. I believe the poor man would be singing this: :)

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

Luke 16:14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him.

As for me, I can only relate to this song [Obamanomics ehehe]
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Moneys Too Tight To Mention - YouTube



 
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yeshuasavedme

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Greetings. How do others view that story Jesus told to the Jews in Luke 16 concerning the rich-man and lazarus. A parable or true story? This is one of the largest studies I have of the NT/NC.

I myself humbly view it as a "Covenantle" parable, but would like to here views from other fellow Christians of it. Thanks.......:wave:

Matthew 3:9 "And no ye should be thinking to say in yourselves 'a Father we are having, the Abraham'. For I am saying unto ye, that is able the God out of the Stones, these, to raise-up offsprings/children to the Abraham. [Luke 3:8/16:24]

Luke 16:24 And he sounding said: "Father Abraham! be thou merciful to-me! and send Lazarus!, that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water, and should be cooling down the tongue of me,--that I am being pained in the Flame,this."
It is a true revelation of an event that happened in real time -and perhaps even in Jesus' day, because he named the beggar, and said the "certain rich man" had five brothers, whom he begged Abraham to have Lazarus go warn not to come to this place. Abraham said they have Moses and the prophets =Enoch included in the prophets, who wrote everything about the place Abraham and Lazarus and the certain rich man were in- and if they did not believe them, they would not believe though one rose from the dead.

I believe Jesus warned the five brothers, Himself, in His mercy, with the telling of the pains the certain rich man was in and the rest the beggar named Lazarus was in. I do believe those brothers heard Jesus, and if they took it to heart, then they are saved. If not, then they are also damned.

As to the place they were in, the prophet Enoch, the seventh from Adam clearly described it just as Jesus revealed it in Luke 16.

Enoch described the tormenting flames for the unrepentant, and the bright springs of water for the righteous, who awaited the Atonement in separated hollows of the earth beneath, separated from the chained angels and from the unrepentant wicked of Adam, and in rest they waited for the Atonement which would free them from the captivity of the first death of separation from the Father of Glory.
Enoch also reported that the spirits of the unrepentant would never be raised from the earth beneath, and Jesus also says the same, for those are the "undying worms" -the cursed to never be morphosed in body and spirit to the New Man image- who are cast into the Lake of Fire "body and soul", but minus the "Adam spirit" which is regenerated for all the born again in Christ, and they are perfected and whole, losing neither body, soul, nor spirit.
1Th 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
The spirit will remain in the earth, which is the life force of the Adam creation each soul is born into, and by, and which each soul has a remnant/share/residue of, but the teaching of Enoch and Jesus after him, is that the spirit will never rise from the earth beneath, and the soul and body will perish -be forever doomed to remain an undying worm with no hope for regeneration- forever, in the Lake of fire.

A Visit to Sheol
5I saw the spirits of the children of men who were dead, and their voice went forth to heaven and made suit. 6Then I asked Raphael the angel who was with me, and I said unto him: "This spirit- whose is it, whose voice goeth forth and maketh suit?" 7And he answered me saying: "This is the spirit which went forth from Abel, whom his brother Cain slew, and he makes his suit against him till his seed is destroyed from the face of the earth, and his seed is annihilated from amongst the seed of men." 8Then I asked regarding it, and regarding all the hollow places: "Why is one separated from the other?" 9And he answered me and said unto me: "These three have been made that the spirits of the dead might be separated. And such a division has been made for the spirits of the righteous, in which there is the bright spring of water.
10And such has been made for sinners when they die and are buried in the earth and judgement has not been executed on them in their lifetime. 11Here their spirits shall be set apart in this great pain till the great day of judgement and punishment and torment of those who curse for ever and retribution for their spirits. There He shall bind them for ever.
12And such a division has been made for the spirits of those who make their suit, who make disclosures concerning their destruction, when they were slain in the days of the sinners.
13Such has been made for the spirits of men who were not righteous but sinners, who were complete in transgression, and of the transgressors they shall be companions: but their spirits shall not be slain in the day of judgement nor shall they be raised from thence." 14Then I blessed the Lord of glory and said: "Blessed be my Lord, the Lord of righteousness, who ruleth for ever."
 
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Lion King

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I believe it was parable for the simple fact that Jesus Christ never spoke to the crowd without using one.:)

Prophecy and the Parables

All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying:

“ I will open My mouth in parables;
I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world.” Matthew 13:34-35
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Parable

(See Matthew 13:34)
Good verse and thks Tim :thumbsup:
I believe it was parable for the simple fact that Jesus Christ never spoke to the crowd without using one.:)

Prophecy and the Parables

All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying:

“ I will open My mouth in parables;
I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world.” Matthew 13:34-35
:thumbsup:
 
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brinny

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I think it's a parable. Personally I think Christ was trying to explain how the rich man's hardened heart, represented by the great chasm, is why he didn't arrive at Abraham's side in the afterlife like Lazarus did. The hardness of his heart even then was evident by the fact that he still demanded the hierarchy that he lived in life, in Hades where it doesn't exist—pleading with Abraham to have Lazarus serve him (water).

I believe the parable was used to illustrate how C.S. Lewis would later describe as "the gates of hell are locked from the inside".

Goodgoogaloogamooga! That's how i see it....i kept marveling at how so very dense was the rich man's heart....like it was set for an eternity against God...even there, in his misery, he STILL didn't "get it"...and on top of THAT he had the audacity to ask Abraham to "send" Lazarus on an "errand" for him..he STILL dis-counted Lazarus to the uttermost degree....he still saw Lazarus as the only reason for existence, to "serve" him.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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I believe it was parable for the simple fact that Jesus Christ never spoke to the crowd without using one.:)

Prophecy and the Parables

All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying:

“ I will open My mouth in parables;
I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world.” Matthew 13:34-35
What sloppy "work" [?] you did to come to that conclusion -and shame on you, LittleLambofJesus, for the sloppy agreement with it!

Mat 13:2 And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
Mat 13:3 And he spake many things unto them in parables,

Another time, another day, Jesus spoke to His disciples, the Pharisees nearby heard, and derided Him. Jesus gave them truth, not a word of parable, and no place, no way, is one word spoken in Luke 16 said to be or can be connected to a "dark saying", but is open, plain, easy to be understood, and to the covetous Pharisees, a clear and direct warning [and personally, I believe thatthe "certain" rich man was probably a brother to one or more of the Pharisees standing there, hearing Jesus -which is like the mercy of Jesus. to warn the family "topside" of taking heed to Moses and the prophets -including Enoch's warnings of Sheol below, and who is tormented there, and why:

Luk 16:1 And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods....

Luk 16:14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
Luk 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. The law and the prophets [were] until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from [her] husband committeth adultery.
Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.
Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
 
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Lion King

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What sloppy "work" [?] you did to come to that conclusion -and shame on you, LittleLambofJesus, for the sloppy agreement with it!

Mat 13:2 And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
Mat 13:3 And he spake many things unto them in parables,

Another time, another day, Jesus spoke to His disciples, the Pharisees nearby heard, and derided Him. Jesus gave them truth, not a word of parable, and no place, no way, is one word spoken in Luke 16 said to be or can be connected to a "dark saying", but is open, plain, easy to be understood, and to the covetous Pharisees, a clear and direct warning [and personally, I believe thatthe "certain" rich man was probably a brother to one or more of the Pharisees standing there, hearing Jesus -which is like the mercy of Jesus. to warn the family "topside" of taking heed to Moses and the prophets -including Enoch's warnings of Sheol below, and who is tormented there, and why:

Luk 16:1 And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods....

Luk 16:14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
Luk 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. The law and the prophets [were] until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from [her] husband committeth adultery.
Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.
Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Who was Jesus Christ speaking to when He said that parable? Wasn't it to the Pharisees who rudely interrupted Him?
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Who was Jesus Christ speaking to when He said that parable? Wasn't it to the Pharisees who rudely interrupted Him?
The point I made with the post was to show that in Matthew -which you quoted- He was speaking to the multitudes in parables, but in Luke 16, it was a different time and a different place and a different audience [the disciples and some Pharisees nearby], so to claim that Luke 16 is a parable and refer back to Matthew and take a statement from there to try to make it the same in Luke 16 just does not pass the test.
There just is not one thing in Luke 16 that is a parable and there is no statement in the Word that can make it so. Also, Enoch was already written and shows exactly the places which Abraham and "the certain" beggar Lazarus and "the certain" rich man were in, after they departed their body. Jesus' corroborates Enoch, again, in that passage.
 
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Achilles6129

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I think that the places that Christ described were real, along with the things experienced by both the rich man and Lazarus. However, I believe that the story itself is a parable - in other words, Christ was using the story to illustrate something.

But I could be wrong - it might have really happened. Regardless, the places being described are real enough.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by Lion King I believe it was parable for the simple fact that Jesus Christ never spoke to the crowd without using one.:)
What sloppy "work" [?] you did to come to that conclusion -and shame on you, LittleLambofJesus, for the sloppy agreement with it!.
Eh :confused:
This commentary says it better than I ever could :)

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man has been the foundation for many of the erroneous beliefs about "hell" within traditional Christianity. Some have viewed it not as a parable, but as a true story Yeshua told to give details about the punishment of sinners in hell.
Yet a thorough, unbiased examination of this story will show that the generally accepted interpretations of this passage of Scripture are erroneous and misleading. In this article, we will go through the parable verse by verse to determine what the Messiah was truly teaching.
 
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Lion King

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The point I made with the post was to show that in Matthew -which you quoted- He was speaking to the multitudes in parables, but in Luke 16, it was a different time and a different place and a different audience [the disciples and some Pharisees nearby], so to claim that Luke 16 is a parable and refer back to Matthew and take a statement from there to try to make it the same in Luke 16 just does not pass the test.
There just is not one thing in Luke 16 that is a parable and there is no statement in the Word that can make it so. Also, Enoch was already written and shows exactly the places which Abraham and "the certain" beggar Lazarus and "the certain" rich man were in, after they departed their body. Jesus' corroborates Enoch, again, in that passage.

Ok. I'll bite.:)

If it's a true story, why was the rich man tormented in hades body and soul? Are the wicked tormented in hades body and soul now while waiting resurrection of the dead?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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LittleLambofJesus

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