Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable

LittleLambofJesus · Jan 20, 2009

Bump. Any more thoughts on the rich-man/lazarus parable and how many of those here haver deeply studied it? Thks

LittleLambofJesus · Feb 22, 2009

Bump for more discussion. I view this parable as perhaps one of the most misunderstood parables in the NT, as it is the only place beside Revelation where someone is shown being tormented in "Hell".

I now wish I would have made this a poll thread.....sigh....Thoughts>?

squint · Feb 22, 2009

LittleLambofJesus said:
Bump for more discussion. I view this parable as perhaps one of the most misunderstood parables in the NT, as it is the only place beside Revelation where someone is shown being tormented in "Hell".

I now wish I would have made this a poll thread.....sigh....Thoughts>?

I'm too lazy to go back through the thread 2 c if I had a prior response, but in brief:

The 'rich man' remains without a name in the parable for specific purpose. Jesus does not know the 'rich man.' Rich men in general are the 'strangers' to Him that He does not know. See how difficult it is for a 'rich man' to get into heaven for example. Easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle. Now we KNOW that ain't gonna happen. And using the excuse that with God all things are possible is ONLY the response to the disciples who were dismayed at Jesus' statement about 'who then could get in?'

The rich man first comes into association with the SIN of DAVID...Yes, David had a 'rich man' that WAS NOT him, but was a SON of BELIAL who was attached to him.

Now go take a look at Lazarus and c who you might also c with (the one whom God favors)

We ain't talkin' fleshly understanding here as in Jews to Gentiles or nations of same or any O' dat sort O' stuff.

We're talkin' the 2 vessels, the real parties to the party of every person.

One does not want to have THE LIGHT shed upon them.

One will be taken. One will be LEFT BEHIND in judgment.

enjoy!

squint

LittleLambofJesus · Mar 14, 2009

Also I would like to ask the differeces in the greek words used in Luke and Reve.
Could this Man be symbolically "married" to this woman as they are both dressed in purple. How do others view this? Thanks

Luke 16:19 A certain Man was rich and in-slipped/enedidu-sketo <1737> (5710) purple and linen/busson <1040> making-merry down to a-day, shiningly

Reve 17:4 And the Woman was having been about-cast/peri-beblhmenh <4016> (5772) purple and scarlet and having been gilded to gold and stone, precious, and pearls,

CaliforniaJosiah · Mar 14, 2009

Likely a parable.

&Abel · Mar 14, 2009

is everyone under the belief that Larazus is the man that died and Jesus healed?

perhaps he was named specifically cause he was only briefly in sheol and came back

maybe the Rich man was asking for someone to go talk to his brothers because he knew Larazrus was going to be raised from the dead

LittleLambofJesus · Apr 12, 2009

&Abel said:
is everyone under the belief that Larazus is the man that died and Jesus healed?

perhaps he was named specifically cause he was only briefly in sheol and came back

maybe the Rich man was asking for someone to go talk to his brothers because he knew Larazrus was going to be raised from the dead

There are actually some commenators that have a view of that, I am in agreement with them concerning that "rich-man" and the 5 brothers.

John 12:10 But the chief priests consulted that also the Lazarus they may be killing

Luke 16:28 "For I am having Five Brothers that he may be testifying to them, that no also they may be coming into the place, this, of the torment".

Here a little, there a little - Lazarus and the Rich Man - Commentary

............Yielding himself to his destiny, the rich man asks one more thing of his forefather Abraham. He pleads with him to send someone to warn his brothers, so that they may escape "this place of torment" (basanou), the testing and punishment that he was undergoing.
The fact that the rich man has five brothers is a vital clue to his true symbolic identity. Judah, the progenitor of the Jews, was the son of Jacob through Leah (Gen. 29:35). He had five full-blooded brothers: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, and Zebulun (Gen. 35:23).

While the significance of this seemingly pointless detail has been neglected by scholars throughout the centuries, you can be certain that it did not escape the notice of the Pharisees and scribes to which Christ was speaking. They thoroughly knew their history and were extremely proud of their heritage. Yeshua wanted those self-righteous Pharisees to know exactly who He was referring to with this parable. This detail cements the identity of the rich man as the house of Judah, the Jews!

RND · Apr 12, 2009

LittleLambofJesus said:
There are actually some commenators that have a view of that, I am in agreement with them concerning that "rich-man" and the 5 brothers.

John 12:10 But the chief priests consulted that also the Lazarus they may be killing

Luke 16:28 "For I am having Five Brothers that he may be testifying to them, that no also they may be coming into the place, this, of the torment".

Here a little, there a little - Lazarus and the Rich Man - Commentary

............Yielding himself to his destiny, the rich man asks one more thing of his forefather Abraham. He pleads with him to send someone to warn his brothers, so that they may escape "this place of torment" (basanou), the testing and punishment that he was undergoing.
The fact that the rich man has five brothers is a vital clue to his true symbolic identity. Judah, the progenitor of the Jews, was the son of Jacob through Leah (Gen. 29:35). He had five full-blooded brothers: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, and Zebulun (Gen. 35:23).

While the significance of this seemingly pointless detail has been neglected by scholars throughout the centuries, you can be certain that it did not escape the notice of the Pharisees and scribes to which Christ was speaking. They thoroughly knew their history and were extremely proud of their heritage. Yeshua wanted those self-righteous Pharisees to know exactly who He was referring to with this parable. This detail cements the identity of the rich man as the house of Judah, the Jews!

I love Bryan's commentaries and thoughts. I remember the first time I read his stuff...I had to write him and ask him if he was SDA. He's a very level headed Messianic - non-dispensational. I dig him.

LLOJ, here's another good expose' on Luke 16:19-31. (BTW, to me the key verse is actually verse 18)

Lazarus and the Rich Man
[A Scriptural Journey Through the Intriguing Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man]
L. Ray Smith

LittleLambofJesus · Apr 12, 2009

RND said:
I love Bryan's commentaries and thoughts. I remember the first time I read his stuff...I had to write him and ask him if he was SDA. He's a very level headed Messianic - non-dispensational. I dig him.

LLOJ, here's another good expose' on Luke 16:19-31. (BTW, to me the key verse is actually verse 18)

Lazarus and the Rich Man
[A Scriptural Journey Through the Intriguing Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man]

L. Ray Smith

Yeah I have known about Bryan H. for years and conversed a few times with him thru email.
The identity of those 5 brothers opened up a lot of the Bible to me, including the Jewish/Hebrew book of Revelation.
Here are a few more that talk about the 5 brothers

Kindgdom Bible Studies Template Page

.........Resigned, at last, to his fate, the rich man begs Abraham to send someone to his father's house, to warn his five brothers "lest they also come into this place of torment." Abraham then says, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them!" Amazing. It was by means of Moses and the prophets that Jesus opened the eyes of the two men that were with Him on the way to Emmaus, which caused their hearts to burn within them as they listened to Him on the way. It says in Lk. 24:27, "And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, He expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning Himself.".........

http://the-true-jw.oltenia.ro/lazarus.html

.......The five brothers of the rich man well picture the associates of the Jewish clergy who manifested the same spirit as the Pharisees. These, refusing to believe in Jesus, showed thereby that they actually were not taking heed to what Moses and the Prophets had said. And that they would not believe even if one rose from the dead was borne out when Lazarus, the brother of Mary and Martha, did actually rise from the dead.—John 7:47, 48; 5:46, 47; 12:10, 11.

LittleLambofJesus · May 9, 2009

Ahhh....This thread survived the CF "Meltdown".

I should have made this a poll......When I have time I will go thur all the post and find out how many did or didn't view this as a parable. Thanks to all that contributed.......

LittleLambofJesus · May 13, 2009

Shameless bump............
I find the greek word used in vs 19 interesting.
It resembles the greek word used for "abys" in Revelation except for the prefix letter "a" before it which generally denotes a "negative" connotation.
Thoughts?

http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Lazarus

Luke 16:19 A certain Man was rich and in-slipped/enedidu-sketo <1737> (5710) purple/porfuran <4209> and fine-linen/busson <1040> making-merry down to a-day, shiningly

Reve 11:7 And whenever they should be finishing the testimony of them, the beast, the one ascending out of the Abyss/abussou <12>, shall be doing with them battle, and shall be conquering them, and he shall be killing them,

LittleLambofJesus · May 25, 2009

I was looking more closely at the greek words used for "die" in this verse and notice it is form with a prefix before the root word. The tenses are also different.

Will see where else the exact word forms are used in the rest of the NT when I get time.

What an awsome parable!

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Luke 16:22 Became yet to be dying/apo-qanein <599> (5629) the poor-one and him to be carried away by the Messengers into the bosom of Abraham.
Yet also died/ap-eqanen <599> (5627) also the rich-one and was buried/etafh <2290> (5648).

Luke 16:22 egeneto de apoqanein ton ptwcon kai apenecqhnai auton upo twn aggelwn eiV ton kolpon tou abraam
apeqanen de kai o plousioV kai etafh

599. apothnesko ap-oth-nace'-ko from 575 and 2348; to die off (literally or figuratively):--be dead, death, die, lie a-dying, be slain (X with).
575. apo apo' a primary particle; "off," i.e. away (from something near), in various senses (of place, time, or relation; literal or figurative):--(X here-)after, ago, at, because of, before, by (the space of),
2348. thnesko thnay'-sko a strengthened form of a simpler primary thano than'-o (which is used for it only in certain tenses); to die (literally or figuratively):--be dead, die.

LittleLambofJesus · Jul 8, 2009

Shameless bump

Tyndale · Jul 31, 2009

A very interesting thread LLoJ. As for it being a true story or a parable it could be both, but most certainly is a parable meant to guide us in the right direction.

I've read it all and was intrigued with the Hebrew connection you highlighted. I've read quite a bit about the Pharisees, Jews (Judah) and Jerusalem (Babylon) myself, but I'm not all that sure whether its simply the Jewish people (Judah), Jerusalem (Babylon) who Jesus, Mark, Luke etc are making us aware off. By us I mean those living after the fall of Jerusalem. For those living before the fall and the Revelation from John there would have been no doubt that the rich man symbolised the Jewish High Priesthood, the five sons was the Jews (Judah) and even that Babylon was Jerusalem. However in Rev 21:12 John talks about the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven, he says "the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel" shall be written on its gates. This reads as if Judah will be in God's Holy Jerusalem, so its not the Jewish people who Luke was referring to, but the Jewish religion and its leaders. A distinction has to be made between the Jewish people (Judah) and the Jewish religion.

Ultimately for us living after the fall of Jerusalem the lesson to be learned is that our religious leaders (rich men in fine linen) can lead us to err just in the same way the high-Priests in Jerusalem lead Judah away from God and blind to the coming of the Messiah. God's words will not pass away, they are as important to us after the fall of Jerusalem as they were to Judah before the fall of Jerusalem. Rev 18 has as much significance to us than it did to the Jews before 70AD. God's word is eternal and everlasting. If God's day of reckoning and judgement hasn't happened in 3000 years from now, Satan will still be let loose to deceive the nations, ruling with the kings of the earth and leading God's people to err.

God Bless!

LittleLambofJesus · Jul 31, 2009

Who would agree with what his one commentator wrote concerning this parable?

I would say he is fairly accurate of it in my most humble view....Thoughts?

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man has been the foundation for many of the erroneous beliefs about "hell" within traditional Christianity. Some have viewed it not as a parable, but as a true story Yeshua told to give details about the punishment of sinners in hell.

Yet a thorough, unbiased examination of this story will show that the generally accepted interpretations of this passage of Scripture are erroneous and misleading. In this article, we will go through the parable verse by verse to determine what the Messiah was truly teaching..........

This other commentator also has a similar interpretation of it:

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/abraham/abrahams_bosom.htm#the%20parable
ABRAHAM'S BOSOM

Tyndale · Jul 31, 2009

LittleLambofJesus said:
Who would agree with what his one commentator wrote concerning this parable?

I would say he is fairly accurate of it in my most humble view....Thoughts?

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

I'm coming around to the idea, but I think he hasn't given much consideration to vs 26. It's probably a bit lazy for him to suggest "a great gulf fixed" is related to God excluding the Jews from hearing his word. I think that's one leap too far and not consistent with the thorough way he's went through the rest of the passage. The vs continues with "so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot"....['pass' - diaperao : go over, sail over]

Tyndale · Aug 1, 2009

Luke 16:26 "And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence."

I took a look at the greek word for 'between' in strongs dictionery. Turns out it could be very important in understand what or who is between. [metaxu], translates as 'betwixt (of place or person);'

If it's a person who stands between, could it be the fine-clothed high-Priest? Maybe even the high-Priest who was selling indulgences (trying to pass the gulf) in the form of Doves in the Temple.

Maybe it's not about Judah (the Jewish people), but about the Jewish leaders? Any thoughts?

Cross Reference · Aug 1, 2009

LittleLambofJesus said:
Greetings. How do others view that story Jesus told to the Jews in Luke 16 concerning the rich-man and lazarus. A parable or true story? This is one of the largest studies I have of the NT/NC.

I myself humbly view it as a "Covenantle" parable, but would like to here views from other fellow Christians of it. Thanks.......

Matthew 3:9 "And no ye should be thinking to say in yourselves 'a Father we are having, the Abraham'. For I am saying unto ye, that is able the God out of the Stones, these, to raise-up offsprings/children to the Abraham. [Luke 3:8/16:24]

Luke 16:24 And he sounding said: "Father Abraham! be thou merciful to-me! and send Lazarus!, that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water, and should be cooling down the tongue of me,--that I am being pained in the Flame,this."

Can you give a reason why it shouldn't viewed as true story?

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 1, 2009

Cross Reference said:
Can you give a reason why it shouldn't viewed as true story?

One thing we do know is that "lazarus" was a real person in the NT [Luke and John], correct?

And just as the corrupt murerous Judean rulers conspired to kill both Jesus and Paul and their followers, so did they also conspired to kill "lazarus".

And why would they want to kill him? Because he was the person Jesus resurrected from the dead after more than 3 days and what better witness of it than "lazarus" himself. Thoughts?

http://www.scripture4all.org/

John 12:10 Counsel yet the Chief-Priests that also the Lazarus they may be killing.

Strong's Number G2976 matches the Greek Λάζαρος (Lazaros), which occurs 15 times in 15 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

Textus Rec.) John 12:10 ebouleusanto de oi arciereiV ina kai ton lazaron apokteinwsin

2976 Lazaros {lad'-zar-os} probably of Hebrew origin 0499;; n pr m
AV - Lazarus 11, Lazarus (the poor man) 4; 15 Lazarus = "whom God helps" (a form of the Hebrew name Eleazar)
1) an inhabitant of Bethany, beloved by Christ and raised from the dead by him
2) a very poor and wretched person to whom Jesus referred to in Luke 16:20-25

Tyndale · Aug 1, 2009

....but the Lazarus Jesus resurrected was wealthy. If it is a true story as well as a parable (which in all honesty it could be) there could be two different Lazarus's.

Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable

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