Revisiting Daniel 12

[taikachanz]

In the second post of this thread, YOU stated the following:



And this is what I was replying to when I stated how that we must also remember that the main subject of the book of Daniel is Jesus. I feel that you missed that very important point in your opening remarks, and I really thought the list that Lueko provided was quite fitting for that point I made.

If you are going to insist that Jesus being the central topic of Daniel 12 is "off topic," then perhaps we have nothing further to discuss here. I hope you are not just here to "teach" us what we "really believe," because this forum is not a debate forum for that kind of purpose. Official Adventist beliefs teach that the book of Daniel is first and foremost about Jesus, and that includes any "overview" of Daniel 12. Infact, Daniel 12:1 mentions Jesus as the central Figure of all that comes after it. Thats why it isn't off topic for me to mention that fact, and for Lueko to back it up with scripture like he did.

It seems to me that you have a lot of RABBIT TRAIL RULES that the rest of us dont know about, and that we get surprised with as we go along.

I have not meant to offend nor deny the Christ is the center of ALL prophecy or any of the OT. Fact is the whole of scripture IS all about Christ and we should never lose that fact. That being said, the focus, without overlooking the aforesaid, is on Daniel 12, how it relates to the Last Days as spoken of by Jesus in the Gospel of John and if in fact the times mentioned herein are these very Last Days. If this is the case then these times have yet to be completed, at least the 1335 or the last part of the time prophecies listed in Daniel 12. They are presented in a sequence and, as history is laid out in a sequence, mirroring prophecy, then these time periods CANNOT be taken out of their sequence, which William Miller did and Adventists still continue to do.

The key, therefore, is to evaluate the points that I listed and you re-posted. Miller taught that if the EVENT that was predicted to happen did not happen that those events leading up to that event must be reevaluated. The EVENT he predicted was the return of Christ, it did not happen, therefore a reevaluation is called for, which has not been done, except to reevaluate the EVENT itself, the Cleansing of the Temple. Two separate events that occur at two different times which are represented by two different feast days, the Day of Atonement and the Feast of Tabernacles, respectively. The Day of Atonement is completed by the completion of the 2300 days prophecy and the Feast of Tabernacles is completed by the times in Daniel 12.

By my estimation through studying the Biblical elements presented and historical facts the time of the countdown in Daniel 12 started when two events took place:

1. Christ made desolate the Temple (the whole of the temple, all three parts) and took away the Daily at his crucifixion.
2. The Abomination of Desolation was "set up" in the Holy Place, the Court of the Tabernacle of the Congregation.

The first took place in AD 31, the second took place in AD 688. As the countdown could not begin until both requirements were complete the countdown thus had to begin in AD 688. As this is the case, historically, then ALL three times mentioned in Daniel 12 must begin here and each is calculated in its order:

688 + 1260 = 1948
688 + 1290 = 1978
688 + 1335 = 2023

Draw your own conclusions from this if you are willing to do so.

Christ himself completes these as he completed all those that came before.

 

[Castaway57]

I have not meant to offend nor deny the

1. Christ made desolate the Temple (the whole of the temple, all three parts) and took away the Daily at his crucifixion.
2. The Abomination of Desolation was "set up" in the Holy Place, the Court of the Tabernacle of the Congregation.

The first took place in AD 31, the second took place in AD 688. As the countdown could not begin until both requirements were complete the countdown thus had to begin in AD 688. As this is the case, historically, then ALL three times mentioned in Daniel 12 must begin here and each is calculated in its order:

688 + 1260 = 1948
688 + 1290 = 1978
699 + 1335 = 2023

Draw your own conclusions from this if you are willing to do so.

Christ himself completes these as he completed all those that came before.

Well you have not offended me, but I must mention two things. the Adventist Church does not govern it's prophetic doctrinal interpretations by Miller's Rules Of Prophecy. Our prophetic principles are governed by the Bible, and principles laid out therein. While we can draw some value from Millers Rules, we cannot allow those to be a stand-alone criteria.

Using the Bible as a stand alone criteria, I have no idea where you get these dates from or what you might be implying by them.

 

[taikachanz]

Well you have not offended me, but I must mention two things. the Adventist Church does not govern it's prophetic doctrinal interpretations by Miller's Rules Of Prophecy. Our prophetic principles are governed by the Bible, and principles laid out therein. While we can draw some value from Millers Rules, we cannot allow those to be a stand-alone criteria.

First let me apologize for not responding in a timely manner, I've been having internet problems and can't seem to resolve the problem.

As to W.M. and his rules and their relation to the Adventist Church I find it a bit revisionist to say that these are of no doctrinal value to us as it was through these that Adventism, through the Millerite movement, came into being. Also, Miller supported each rule by scriptural reference and therefore the principles are governed by the Bible.

Using the Bible as a stand alone criteria, I have no idea where you get these dates from or what you might be implying by them.

If you will go back and reread my posts concerning prophecy and history I think you will find that I've stated that it is through history that we find prophecy unfolded or revealed for prophecy is history yet to take place.

Now when we look at time prophecies, prophecies with specific time period mentioned, we find 4 things:

1. An implied beginning, as in the cases of those given to Noah, Abraham and Joseph and a set beginning, as in the cases of those given to Daniel.

2. In the time prophecies in Daniel we find sub-prophecies, each with its own start point, designated by a specfic event, ie, the decree to rebuild Jerusalem and its walls, the anointing of the Messiah. I call these way-marks.

3. Time prophecies, as with history, are linear. In other words, as history unfolds in a chronological order so do time prophecies. The order in which a time prophecy is give, and this includes its' subsets, is how it will unfold as it is fulfilled by historical events.

4. Each time prophecy, and each of its' subsets, has a definite end date upon which an identifiable significant event relating to the prophetic subject matter can be connected.

By understanding these 4 thing we see that history plays a significant part in understanding the unfolding of time prophecies. The key to finding the correct time of the fulfillment of a time prophecy it to correctly identify the start points, way marks and the event(s) at the end of the time prophecies specified period.

This is how I came to my conclusions. Please review those post once again.

 

[Castaway57]

As to W.M. and his rules and their relation to the Adventist Church I find it a bit revisionist to say that these are of no doctrinal value to us as it was through these that Adventism, through the Millerite movement, came into being. Also, Miller supported each rule by scriptural reference and therefore the principles are governed by the Bible.

Well; it may or may not be wrong to have a bit of "revisionsit" blood in me, but I did not say that Millers rules were of no doctrinal value. What I said was their value is limited, and that the Adventist Church does not, on an official basis, depend upon same for the interpretation of Bible prophecy.

By understanding these 4 thing we see that history plays a significant part in understanding the unfolding of time prophecies. The key to finding the correct time of the fulfillment of a time prophecy it to correctly identify the start points, way marks and the event(s) at the end of the time prophecies specified period.

This is how I came to my conclusions. Please review those post once again.

Perhaps I am guilty of being "revisionist" here when I say that history actually does not interpret the Bible; it is the other way around. History can sometimes be subjective and activist in nature, and can lead us to circular reasoning and inaccurate conclusions if we use history to validate the Bible. It is always interesting to see how a prophecy unfolds in the context of history, but caution is needed that we do not start using local newscasts as "prophecy" and as being scriptural when infact they often are not.

I still am not clear what exactly you want to "revisit" from Daniel 12 here?

 

[taikachanz]

Well; it may or may not be wrong to have a bit of "revisionist" blood in me, but I did not say that Millers rules were of no doctrinal value. What I said was their value is limited, and that the Adventist Church does not, on an official basis, depend upon same for the interpretation of Bible prophecy.

What you said was

the Adventist Church does not govern it's prophetic doctrinal interpretations by Miller's Rules Of Prophecy. Our prophetic principles are governed by the Bible, and principles laid out therein.

Now here are those rules, with biblical support, of which the SDA church does adhere for they were passed down from the Millerite movement to the present day remnant church.

"RULES OF INTERPRETATION.​

"1. Every word must have its proper bearing on the subject presented in the Bible. Proof, Matt. 5:18.

"2. All Scripture is necessary, and may be understood by a diligent application and study. Proof, 2 Tim. 3:15-17.

"3. Nothing revealed in Scripture can or will be hid from those who ask in faith, not wavering. Proof, Deut. 29:29; Matt. 10:26, 27; 1 Cor. 2:10; Phil. 3:15; Isa. 45:11; Matt. 21:22; John 14:13, 14; 15;7; James 1:5, 6; 1 John 5:13-15.

"4. To understand doctrine, bring all the Scriptures together on the subject you wish to know; then let every word have its proper influence; and, if you can form your theory without a contradiction, you cannot be in error. Proof, Isa. 28:7-29; 35:8; Prov. 19:27; Luke 24:27, 44, 45; Rom. 16:26; James 5:19; 2 Pet. 1:19, 20.

"5. Scripture must be its own expositor, since it is a rule of itself. If I depend on a teacher to expound to me, and he should guess at its meaning, or desire to have it so on account of his sectarian creed, or to be thought wise, then his guessing, desire, creed, or wisdom, is my rule, and not the Bible. Proof, Ps. 19:7-11; 119:97-105: Matt. 23:8-10; 1 Cor. 2:12-16; Eze. 34:18, 19; Luke 11:52; Matt. 2:7,8.

"6. God has revealed things to come, by visions, in figures and parables; and in this way the same things are oftentimes revealed again and again, by different visions, or in different figures and parables. If you wish to understand them, you must combine them all in one. Proof, Ps. 89:19; Hos. 12:10; Hab. 2:2; Acts 2:17; 1 Cor. 10:6; Heb. 9:9, 24; Ps. 78:2; Matt. 13:13, 34; Gen. 41:1-32; Dan. 2d, 7th & 8th; Acts 10:9-16.

"7. Visions are always mentioned as such. 2 Cor. 12:1.

"8. Figures always have a figurative meaning, and are used much in prophecy to represent future things, times and events--such as mountains, meaning governments; Dan. 2:35, 44; beasts, meaning kingdoms; Dan. 7:8, 17; waters, meaning people; Rev. 17:1, 15; day, meaning year, &c. Eze. 4:6.

"9. Parables are used as comparisons to illustrate subjects, and must be explained in the same way as figures, by the subject and Bible. Mark 4:13.

"10. Figures sometimes have two or more different significations, as day is used in a figurative sense to represent three different periods of time, namely, first, indefinite; Eccl. 7:14; second, definite, a day for a year; Eze. 4:6; and third, a day for a thousand years. 2 Pet. 3:8. The right construction will harmonize with the Bible, and make good sense; other constructions will not.

"11. If a word makes good sense as it stands, and does no violence to the simple laws of nature, it is to be understood literally; if not, figuratively. Rev. 12:1, 2; 17:3-7.

"12. To learn the meaning of a figure, trace the word through your Bible, and when you find it explained, substitute the explanation for the word used; and, if it make good sense, you need not look further; if not, look again.

"13. To know whether we have the true historical event for the fulfillment of a prophecy: If you find every word of the prophecy (after the figures are understood) is literally fulfilled, then you may know that your history is the true event; but if one word lacks a fulfillment, then you must look for another event, or wait its future development; for God takes care that history and prophecy shall agree, so that the true believing children of God may never be ashamed. Ps. 22:5; Isa. 45:17-19; 1 Pet. 2:6; Rev. 17:17; Acts 3:18.

"14. The most important rule of all is, that you must have faith. It must be a faith that requires a sacrifice, and, if tried, would give up the dearest object on earth, the world and all its desires--character, living, occupation, friends, home, comforts and worldly honors. If any of these should hinder our believing any part of God's word, it would show our faith to be vain. Nor can we ever believe so long as one of these motives lies lurking in our hearts. We must believe that God will never forfeit his word; and we can have confidence that He who takes notice of the sparrow's fall, and numbers the hairs of our head, will guard the translation of his own word, and throw a barrier around it, and prevent those who sincerely trust in God, and put implicit confidence in his word, from erring far from the truth.

Please note specifically the underlined portions, especially rule #13. It is because of this rule that I started this thread. To understand this you need to know specifically William Miller’s belief concerning Daniel 12 and how he came to his conclusions. To do that you need to read his biography and the dissertations he wrote on the subject of Daniel, particularly Daniel 12 and it’s relation to End Time events.

Perhaps I am guilty of being "revisionist" here when I say that history actually does not interpret the Bible; it is the other way around. History can sometimes be subjective and activist in nature, and can lead us to circular reasoning and inaccurate conclusions if we use history to validate the Bible. It is always interesting to see how a prophecy unfolds in the context of history, but caution is needed that we do not start using local newscasts as "prophecy" and as being scriptural when in fact they often are not

.

No, history is not prophecy, it is the fulfillment of prophecy and therefore observing the “news” as it is given may well show prophecy being revealed, which I believe has been happening, as do many SDA and others in other denominations will attest. If history does not validate the Bible through the fulfillment of prophetic events then history has no use other than to be something to be studied by history majors in college and to show our children in the lower grades how stupid we adults can be.

I still am not clear what exactly you want to "revisit" from Daniel 12 here?

I will refer you back to the thread on William Miller and to the beginning of this post.

 

[Castaway57]

I think you are missing the point here. If Millers rules were so accurate then there would not have been a great disappointment in 1844 and Miller would have become a Seventh day Adventist. Miller missed some key Biblical concepts in determing. Bible prophecy and thats why there was a great disappointment

The other point to be made here is that this topic according to the op is supposed to be about revisiting Daniel 12. You still have not told us just what all your preamble here has to do with Daniel 12

 

[taikachanz]

You’re right on the money Cast, but this is gonna take some time to put together to explain, so have patience.

 

[taikachanz]

I’ve switched the order of your points, as you can see, because it is in the first point, listed second, that the second point, listed first, will be answered. But as a preliminary answer let me say that it is due to William Miller’s mistake or misjudgment concerning the events in Daniel 7, 8, & 9 verses Daniel 12 that lead to the Great Disappointment. In my answer to your first point I hope to make it clear why this happened and also to show that SDAs today follow most of what William Miller taught, some rightly and some in error.

The other point to be made here is that this topic according to the op is supposed to be about revisiting Daniel 12. You still have not told us just what all your preamble here has to do with Daniel 12

I think you are missing the point here. If Millers rules were so accurate then there would not have been a great disappointment in 1844 and Miller would have become a Seventh day Adventist. Miller missed some key Biblical concepts in determining Bible prophecy and that’s why there was a great disappointment.

There is nothing wrong with Miller’s rules. They have Biblical support and, if followed correctly, will help one to find answers to prophetic utterances. What Miller failed to realize, and failed to implement in his rules, were the following:

• Prophetic vision must be understood through the eyes of the prophet. His/her view of places and things, unless figurative, must be taken into consideration when understanding how they relate to future events.
• As history happens linearly so to time prophecies are linear. If multiple times are given they must fall within in their order given, as three follows two, two must also follow one. A horse does not follow a cart that is being lead by a farmer; the farmer comes first then the horse then the cart.

With these two rules Miller may not have made the error he made. So what was his error? According to SDA teachings his main error, the one taught mostly by SDA doctrine, is he misstated the event. Early SDA teaching is that the actual event was the Cleansing of the Heavenly Sanctuary, Jesus moving from the Holy into the Most Holy to begin conducting the Judgment. However, this then negated the understanding that the times in Daniel 12 pointed to the end of time. This is what Miller taught, it is what he believed:

"When, therefore, I found the 2300 prophetic days, which were to mark the length of the vision from the Persian to the end of the fourth kingdom, the seven times' continuance of the dispersion of God's people, and the 1335 prophetic days to the standing of Daniel in his lot, all evidently extending to the advent,(13) with other prophetical periods, I could but regard them as 'the times before appointed,' which God had revealed 'unto his servants the prophets.' As I was fully convinced that 'all Scripture given by inspiration of God is profitable,'--that it came not at any time by the will of man, but was written as holy men were moved by the Holy Ghost, and was written for our learning, that we, through patience and comfort of the Scriptures, might have hope,--I could but regard the chronological portions of the Bible as being as much a portion of the word of God, and as much entitled to our serious consideration, as any other portion of the Scriptures.”

Notice that William Miller states that both the 2300 days from Daniel 8 and the 1335 days from Daniel 12 conclude on the same day. But we find in Daniel 8:14 that at the conclusion of the 2300 days, clearly stated, the sanctuary would be cleansed. In Daniel 12 the conclusion is “the end”. Two separate events. Go back and read the quote again. See the (13)? That is a footnote by the author of the biography that this is coming from. Oh, the author, by the way, was James White. Here is that footnote:

(13) The supposition that two of the periods of Daniel extended to the second advent constituted Mr. Miller's mistake, hence the consequent disappointment. (Herein James White observes and admits that William Miller inappropriately combined two time prophecies to come to his conclusion that Christ would return in 1843 then, after recalculation, 1844. There are only two extended time prophecies in Daniel, the first found in Daniel 8 and the second and last in Daniel 12. The 2300 days prophecy, which has been shown to have been fulfilled, is found in Daniel 8. In Daniel 12 we find the 1335 days prophecy, of which there is much controversy and of which no one can come to agreement, even in the SDA movement.)
J. W.

Unfortunately, after the Great Disappointment we don’t hear too much from or about William Miller. He was fairly old when he started his campaign concerning the Second Advent, old by the standards of that era, and I can imagine how he would have felt feeling so confident of the validity of what he believed and now having to bear the ridicule of those who scoffed at him the whole time. But, he was not entirely wrong in his understanding. I believe had he had more information and understood more about the inner workings of Daniel’s time and Daniel’s understanding of ancient religions he may have very well solved these prophetic mysteries.

The biggest mistake, however, wasn’t Miller’s. It was those who followed. Ellen White was forced to take a stand against time setting because of all the misinterpretation of time prophecies being proposed leading to the belief that man could never know when Christ would return and that this event would remain a mystery until the very last moment. Scripture does not support this, even though we would like to believe it does. (I believe that has been discussed earlier in this thread.) The mistake that was made by those who attempted to ascertain the second advent was that they kept rehashing the 2300 days prophecy, and continue to do so today, trying to find a new start date so that they can pinpoint a new end date. This will not and cannot happen! The 2300 days prophecy has been and is fully fulfilled. What has not been fully fulfilled is the 1335 days prophecy. It is this time prophecy, in Daniel 12, that remains to be concluded and will only be concluded on the day that the Lord returns. The question is “Can we come to a reasonable conclusion as to when this MIGHT be?” The answer to that is YES. But only if we understand, through Daniel’s and the Disciple’s eyes the significance of the figures given in Daniel 12:11, remembering that Miller failed to properly identify the correct event for this prophecy to be fulfilled and therefore any events that he identified that are connected with this prophecy MUST be discounted and can no longer be used. Which also means a reevaluation the several 1260 days must also be conducted.

Now, I hope this gives you an understanding of where I’m coming from and what it is I seek to do.

 

[Castaway57]

The biggest mistake, however, wasn’t Miller’s. It was those who followed. Ellen White was forced to take a stand against time setting because of all the misinterpretation of time prophecies being proposed leading to the belief that man could never know when Christ would return and that this event would remain a mystery until the very last moment. Scripture does not support this, even though we would like to believe it does. (I believe that has been discussed earlier in this thread.)

There was no time-setting by any official Seventh-day Adventist teaching; and this was in fact the biggest amongst Miller's several gross errors in prophecy.

What has not been fully fulfilled is the 1335 days prophecy. It is this time prophecy, in Daniel 12, that remains to be concluded and will only be concluded on the day that the Lord returns. The question is “Can we come to a reasonable conclusion as to when this MIGHT be?” The answer to that is YES.

Unfortunately; it is time to call you out on this one and say what I have suspected from the start. You are attempting to teach in opposition to official Adventist teachings, and you will never be able to prove from the Bible; or from our official beliefs that we can know the day when Jesus returns:

Mat_24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mar_13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

But only if we understand, through Daniel’s and the Disciple’s eyes the significance of the figures given in Daniel 12:11, remembering that Miller failed to properly identify the correct event for this prophecy to be fulfilled and therefore any events that he identified that are connected with this prophecy MUST be discounted and can no longer be used. Which also means a reevaluation the several 1260 days must also be conducted.

You need to stop trying to insinuate Miller into an evaluation of Daniel 12, because Adventists do not follow William Miller to interpret Bible prophecy. Miller made the mistake that it looks like you are headed for. That of time setting. Time-setting, is time-setting, no matter what guise it is under.

I will post some brief context for Daniel 12:11 below. Can you tell us your understanding of the "figures in Daniel 12:11?"

Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
Dan 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
Dan 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Now, I hope this gives you an understanding of where I’m coming from and what it is I seek to do.

I think you are just here to attack official Adventist beliefs, by working up to this big "reevaluation of the 1260 days."

Christ's ministry in the heavenly sanctuary is clear in this official Adventist position:

There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle which the Lord set up and not man. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and began His intercessory ministry at the time of His ascension. In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent.-Fundamental Beliefs, 24

The official statement made by our church on the time of His coming reads as follows:

The second coming of Christ is the blessed hope of the church, the grand climax of the gospel. The Saviour's coming will be literal, personal, visible, and worldwide. When He returns, the righteous dead will be resurrected, and together with the righteous living will be glorified and taken to heaven, but the unrighteous will die. The almost complete fulfillment of most lines of prophecy, together with the present condition of the world, indicates that Christ's coming is imminent. The time of that event has not been revealed, and we are therefore exhorted to be ready at all times.-Fundamental Beliefs, 25

 

[taikachanz]

There was no time-setting by any official Seventh-day Adventist teaching; and this was in fact the biggest amongst Miller's several gross errors in prophecy.

Can you show me where in my statement did I say that it was SDAs the were doing the time-setting or the it was from an official SDA stand point? The fact is that it was happening and EGW responded to it and that it was because of her response that ALL time-setting was deemed wrong and not possible.

The fact is that God has promised to reveal what He will do when He chooses to do so through whatever source He decides. This is shown in Amos and in Joel; I assume that you are familiar with these scriptures as these are part of our doctrine to support the validity of EGW.

William Miller did not make a mistake in setting the time of the end of the 2300 days prophecy. As I have shown, per James White’s biography of William Miller, his mistake was misidentifying the event, as is readily recognized by the SDA movement, and including the time prophecies within Daniel 12 in this conclusion.

Unfortunately; it is time to call you out on this one and say what I have suspected from the start. You are attempting to teach in opposition to official Adventist teachings, and you will never be able to prove from the Bible; or from our official beliefs that we can know the day when Jesus returns:

Mat_24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mar_13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

I admit that what I am looking at in reviewing Daniel 12 is in opposition to our official teachings, please never forget I too belong to this movement so don’t treat me as if I am not, however, we must remember that we are only human and we are fallible and that only God is infallible, meaning we are subject to error. If therefore, we are subject to error then it is up to us to insure that if there is error within our organizational doctrines they must be discovered and corrected. Even the SOP teaches this. There can no harm be done to our doctrines that a thorough study of SUPPOSED new light reveals.

The verses you quote are standard fair when confronting the possibility of setting a time for Christ’s return. But let us look at this from different angles and see what we will see.

First let us look at the Greek, which has been done earlier in this thread which you seem to have ignored or rejected, I know not which.

The word “knoweth” is translated for the Greek edios which is a past tense word from which all other words of this nature are derived. Past tense! If it is a past tense word then the scripture should read:

“Mat_24:36 But of that day and hour hath known no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.”

And:

“Mar_13:32 But of that day and that hour hath known no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.”

Ok, so you reject this as well, fine. But consider this, show me in the Bible where it tells us that we shall never know, or that God shall never reveal it. That is not what these verses say. We often project into the future and to the present that which was meant only for those that it was spoken to in the past. We translate these verses to mean:

“But of that day and hour no man will ever know, no, not the angels of heaven, but my father only.”

And:

“But of that day and that hour no man will ever know, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.”

This cannot be, especially the second verse, because God the Father would have revealed this to God the Son upon the Son’s ascension. So if these verses are to be used to deny man’s capability of ever knowing then they must also be used to deny the Son’s capability of ever knowing. Not possible, or plausible.

In God’s discourse to Moses He told Moses how he would reveal what He wanted to reveal to man, it was promised that He would do this through His prophets via dreams and visions. This promise was reiterated in through Amos and Joel and it extends to modern times, as we can see through EGW. EGW states that it will be the last generation that will receive the final light prior to Christ’s return and she also warns against the rejection of this light. However, we cannot determine new light if we are not willing to research and study that which has been presented as new light. I recommend you take a look at the thread someone else started concerning EGW and whether or not she is the final authority on scripture.

You need to stop trying to insinuate Miller into an evaluation of Daniel 12, because Adventists do not follow William Miller to interpret Bible prophecy. Miller made the mistake that it looks like you are headed for. That of time setting. Time-setting, is time-setting, no matter what guise it is under.

As I stated before, Miller made no mistake in setting a time for an event in Bible prophecy. The mistake he made was identifying the wrong event, this is Adventist teaching; this is Adventist doctrine. I challenge you to show me what part of William Miller’s teachings on the 2300 days prophecy found in Daniel 8 and the 1260 days and 1290 days prophecies found in Daniel 12 that official SDA doctrine rejects other than the event predicted.

As to time setting, you react as if time setting is an evil thing. Let’s look at time setting throughout Biblical history and answer the question: “Is time setting invalid or is it a tool used by God to specify specific events?”

Gen. 6:3 “And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also … flesh: Yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.”

This is the first time prophecy ever given to man through Noah by God. SOP tells us that God told Noah that man had but 120 years to repent or be destroyed. He commanded Noah to build an ark to save those who would be saved and for the preservation of the animals, both clean and unclean. Could Noah then know precisely when the flood would come?

Gen. 7:4 “For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty night; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.”

After 120 years minus seven days God again reveals to Noah two more time prophecies, seven days and 40 days and nights. Could Noah calculate when the rains would start? Could Noah calculate when they would end?

Where these three prophecies fulfilled as God said, in the time that was given?

Gen. 7:10 – 12 “And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.
In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.”

Gen. 7:23 “And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained … , and they that … with him in the ark.”

Precisely on time the rains came, the waters rose and flooded the whole earth. Man, beast and all plant life destroyed just as God had promised it would. All but 8 humans and what animals were brought aboard the ark were destroy and Noah and his family knew when it would happen because they could calculate the time from the information given in God’s word.

Gen. 15:13 “And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land … … not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;”

Another time prophecy, this one concerning the children of Abram (Abraham); could Abram calculate when this would occur? No. Why? He did not have enough information to determine when it would begin. But, could he pass this prophecy on through his children so that when the time came that his descendents could when the time came to do so? Absolutely.

Ex. 1:8-11 “Now there arose up a new king over Egypt, which knew not Joseph.
And he said unto his people, Behold, the people of the children of Israel … more and mightier than we:
Come let us deal wisely with them; lest they multiply, and it come to pass, that, when there falleth out any war, they join also unto our enemies, and fight against us, and … get them up out of the land.
Therefore they did set over them taskmasters to afflict them with their burdens. And they built for Pharaoh treasure cities, Pithom and Raamses.

Ex. 12:40-41 “Now the sojourning of the children of Israel, who dwelt in Egypt, … four hundred and thirty years.
And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years, even the selfsame day it came to pass, that all the hosts of the Lord went out from the land of Egypt.”

Thirty years were the Israelites in Egypt as free men under the protection of Pharaoh until Joseph died and a new Pharaoh who cared not about Joseph’s deeds but feared the numbers of the Israelites and conspired and brought about the enslavement of these people. Until Moses was raised up to be a messenger for God and to assist God in the deliverance of the people out of the bondage of slavery, as foretold, right on time.

Here is a list of other time prophecies within scripture. So, answer the question: Is time setting invalid or is it a tool which God uses to reveal what and when he will do something?

Gen. 15:13; the three days of the butler's and baker's dreams;
Gen. 40:12-20; the seven years of Pharaoh's;
Gen. 41:28-54; the forty years in the wilderness;
Num. 14:34; the three and a half years of famine:
1 Kings 17:1; the sixty-five years to the breaking of Ephraim
Isa. 7:8; the seventy years captivity;
Jer. 25:11; Nebuchadnezzar's seven times;

If these can be calculated why is it impossible to calculate those remaining prophecies in Daniel?

To be continued

 

[taikachanz]

Continued from previous post

I will post some brief context for Daniel 12:11 below. Can you tell us your understanding of the "figures in Daniel 12:11?"

Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Dan 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
Dan 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

I believe I’ve explained this before but I will do so again.

Daniel 12:11 is the key to understanding when the countdown for the 1335 days (years) begins. As there are two more time periods mentioned in Daniel 12 these too begin at the same time, each in its order, 1260 first then 1290. To understand the figures in Daniel 12:11 we must understand what it was that Daniel understood these figures to mean.

The first figure “The daily sacrifice” has been and continues to be controversial as the word “sacrifice” is an added word to scripture and has been rejected by many as to what the “daily” actually is. Miller taught that the daily was actually ancient paganism. This belief has be carried on within the SDA movement as well as can be seen by the writings of other prominent leaders of the movement one of which was Loughborough who wrote and article called “Refutation of Prophetic Chart” where in he proposes this very same belief.

EGW was vague on this issue only stating that the early teachers of this event had it correct; which tells me she supported William Millers view and therefore that of Loughborough. However, a study of the Bible does not support this view but more correctly supports that the daily was in fact the sacrifices that were conducted on a daily basis along with all the daily functions that occurred in support of these sacrifices.

We also need to consider who it was that was to take away the daily and for what purpose:

In Daniel 8 we see in verse 11 it is the little horn power that “takes away the daily”:

“Yea, he magnified … even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily … was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.”

But in Daniel 9 concerning the 70 weeks prophecy we get a different view as to who it is that “takes away the daily” and why:

Verse 27 “And he (messiah) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (this is a description of the daily) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make … desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”

And still in Daniel 11:31 “And arms shall stand on his part (the king of the north) and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily …, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

We see three different occurrences pertaining to the taking away of the daily conducted by three different individuals. Now you may say that the first and the third occurrence are the same, but you cannot say that the second is related to the others as it is clear that this one pertains to the messiah alone. Then how do we determine which occurrence is referred to in Daniel 12?

Consider again Daniel 9:27 “… and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make … desolate”

This is a preparation. When Jesus made the sacrifices of no effect due to him being the ultimate and perfect sacrifice at the cross they ceased spiritually. In Matthew 23 he declared the temple desolate. It was at this time that everything was ready for the setting up of the abomination of desolation. But notice that in this verse there is more than one abomination for abomination is pluralized. Now according to the other two verses it would appear that one of these is prior to what Jesus did and one falls after. The questions now are; is the latter the final abomination or are there others to follow, and how many abominations were there supposed to be?

The reason we get into this is because for the countdown to begin both these events must be in operation and not a moment before.

So, what are recognized by the world at large, by Jews and in religious communities as biblical abominations?

• Antiochus Epiphanies
• The Standards of the Roman Armies that surrounded Jerusalem in 70 AD
• The Papacy in 508 AD

We see that there is one before and two after Christ took away the daily and prepared for the setting up of the abominations. However, in Matthew 24 we find that a specific location is mentioned for the setting up of the last abomination of desolation. Notice that there is no specific location, other than the sanctuary (which is comprised of three areas), designated in Daniel for the setting up of the last abomination of desolation.

Matt. 24:15 “When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the Holy Place, (whoso readeth, let him understand”

Ok, now let’s look at those three accepted occurrences and determine if any of these fit. Let’s work backwards.

SDA doctrine teaches that the temple in the Holy Place and that the Church is the spiritual temple of God. No argument there. But when we review the context of the text just given and take into consideration that Christ was speaking to the disciples and what they would have understood where the Holy Place was this doesn’t work. For the subject at the time was the physical temple standing in Jerusalem.

Neither does that of the Roman standards, although the surrounded Jerusalem and the area may have been considered “a” holy place it would not have been considered as “the” Holy Place.

So that leaves only the last. But this cannot be as this is in the ancient past. But it does have significance for it is an anti-type of what is to occur with the last abomination of desolation. To under stand the type we must look at the anti-type, the figure, the model if you will. History tells us that Antiochus forced the Jews to cease their worship of the Lord through their sacrifices. But he went further. On the very site where the Jews conducted their worship and sacrifices Antiochus instituted a new worship and a new sacrificial system, and abominable worship and an abominable sacrificial system. So it is to be with the last abomination of desolation. So what would be more abominable of a worship system than that which denied totally the true God of heaven and his Son who died for us?

The only thing now is to determine “Where is the Holy Place?” Again, I refer you to the thread of the same name.

I think you are just here to attack official Adventist beliefs, by working up to this big "reevaluation of the 1260 days."

And your thinking is wrong. SOP tells us to continue to search for new light and keep studying and praying for God’s truth. I am not here to attack anybodies believes but to ask and get answers, thoughtful and studied answers, to my questions. Yes, a reevaluation of the 1260 days is in order, for it is my belief that there is more than one time period that has a span of 1260 days. I believe that every time prophecy has its own set of occurrences and it own set of time spans of which are specific to that time prophecies. I believe that time prophecies may over lap but that when a time or an event in designated within a time prophecy then it is within that time prophecy that the event will occur. I believe that every time prophecy as a specific start point and a specific end point and within if there are sub time prophecies these too a have the same characteristics. This is what I believe and this is what I believe the Bible supports.

Christ's ministry in the heavenly sanctuary is clear in this official Adventist position:

As I’ve said, I to am a SDA and have no problems with these fundamental doctrines.

The official statement made by our church on the time of His coming reads as follows:

The time of that event has not been revealed

Again I concur, but it seems to me as if most SDAs do not believe that it ever will be revealed and that I cannot except because I believe in all of God’s promises and he promised to reveal a thing before he does it and I have never seen an instance in the bible that he does not give sufficient time to react before he does what he will do, especially where it come to the salvation of souls.

 

[Castaway57]

I admit that what I am looking at in reviewing Daniel 12 is in opposition to our official teachings, please never forget I too belong to this movement so don’t treat me as if I am not,

You need to review the following thread here: http://www.christianforums.com/t7751830/ You are not being treated any certain way; your ideas are being challenged, and clarified as not official Adventist teaching

The verses you quote are standard fair when confronting the possibility of setting a time for Christ’s return. But let us look at this from different angles and see what we will see.

First let us look at the Greek, which has been done earlier in this thread which you seem to have ignored or rejected, I know not which.

The word “knoweth” is translated for the Greek edios which is a past tense word from which all other words of this nature are derived. Past tense! If it is a past tense word then the scripture should read:

“Mat_24:36 But of that day and hour hath known no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.”

Bible study has been known to be totally mis-leading when someone chooses to limit themselves to a so called "word study" and make a doctrine to fit that. A word study is only valuable when it is correctly related to context, and author's obvious intentions. The alleged tense of said verse/s is not the object of this statement by Jesus. I'll give you a little time to think about that.

Perhaps, a re-statement of our official fundamental belief, with some of the scriptures it is based upon will help with the correct context of Mat 24:36

25. The Second Coming of Christ
The second coming of Christ is the blessed hope of the church, the grand climax of the gospel. The Saviour's coming will be literal, personal, visible, and worldwide. When He returns, the righteous dead will be resurrected, and together with the righteous living will be glorified and taken to heaven, but the unrighteous will die. The almost complete fulfillment of most lines of prophecy, together with the present condition of the world, indicates that Christ's coming is imminent. The time of that event has not been revealed, and we are therefore exhorted to be ready at all times.

(Titus 2:13; Heb. 9:28; John 14:1-3; Acts 1:9-11; Matt. 24:14; Rev. 1:7; Matt. 24:43, 44; 1 Thess. 4:13-18; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; 2 Thess. 1:7-10; 2:8; Rev. 14:14-20; 19:11-21; Matt. 24; Mark 13; Luke 21; 2 Tim. 3:1-5; 1 Thess. 5:1-6.)

 

[taikachanz]

You need to review the following thread here:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7751830/ You are not being treated any certain way; your ideas are being challenged, and clarified as not official Adventist teaching

Read and understood. I’ve been there before. Thank you.

Bible study has been known to be totally mis-leading when someone chooses to limit themselves to a so called "word study" and make a doctrine to fit that. A word study is only valuable when it is correctly related to context, and author's obvious intentions. The alleged tense of said verse/s is not the object of this statement by Jesus. I'll give you a little time to think about that.

Is it that you cannot refute the meaning of the word from which is derived “knoweth” that you discount it or is it that you just don’t want to acknowledge the possibility that the translators rendered the wrong interpretation? Yes, the context would appear to agree with your argument, however, there is still the fact, that you did not address, that it does not preclude that the time of his second advent would be eventually revealed, when God decides it is appropriate to do so.

Perhaps, a re-statement of our official fundamental belief, with some of the scriptures it is based upon will help with the correct context of Mat 24:36

I am highly familiar with these verses, you left one out; 2 Peter 3:3-13. But, again, I find nothing in these verses that precludes the God’s revealing of the time of the Second Advent.

What I find in Daniel 12 is a description of the Feast of Tabernacles and the time periods leading up to that final feast.

I still await the challenge to show me where SDA doctrine does not use William Miller’s view concerning the 2300 Days prophecy as stated in my previous post.

 

[Castaway57]

Read and understood. I’ve been there before. Thank you.

I dont think it's very well understood at all or you wouldnt come here to our forum and attack our beliefs like this, in defiance of forum rules and guidelines for "fellowship posts."

Is it that you cannot refute the meaning of the word from which is derived “knoweth” that you discount it or is it that you just don’t want to acknowledge the possibility that the translators rendered the wrong interpretation? Yes, the context would appear to agree with your argument, however, there is still the fact, that you did not address, that it does not preclude that the time of his second advent would be eventually revealed, when God decides it is appropriate to do so.

Whenever someone wants to try to disprove this Adventist doctrine; one of the first things they try is to question the Bible itself, they always dig up some excuse to say "that part of the Bible wasn't done right." Also, you can't make an entire doctrine out of just one word, just one verse in the Bible as you are attempting to do here with your comments re the tense of a certain word. Because you are not wanting to deal with the context of the verse, you have built a case, in your mind, against the official teachings of our church. And I didn't "leave out" 2 Pet 3:3-13. I quoted the official belief statement exactly as it reads in the book "28 Fundamental Beliefs," as well as from the page on the GC web site which states these beliefs. But the reason I thought it was important to re-state those verses that our church uses in connection with this fundamental belief, is because I wanted to see if you would address the context questions I raised, and which those verse do answer.

I am highly familiar with these verses, you left one out; 2 Peter 3:3-13. But, again, I find nothing in these verses that precludes the God’s revealing of the time of the Second Advent.

IF you were "highly familiar" with those verses, you would not be having this discussion here now for they show quite clearly that the Bible does not support any kind of ideas which say we can know when Jesus will return. I guess in your comment re 2 Pet 3:3 -13, you forgot to become "highly familiar" with verse 10 which tells us that Jesus' coming will happen as a complete surprise. Although we "look for His coming;" it does not happen when we expect. "the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night" is how verse 10 puts it.

What I find in Daniel 12 is a description of the Feast of Tabernacles and the time periods leading up to that final feast.

because of your contorted presupposition that we can indeed know exactly when Jesus will return, absolutely nothing you say about Daniel 12 can be correct. Our Church respects William Miller and his valuable contribution to God's work, and in some cases his principles do apply to what we believe, but my statement still stands that we in no circumstance depend upon his rules for our interpretation of Bible prophecy. Miller had the same misconception as you do, that we could know the exact time when Jesus would come..[/quote]

 

[taikachanz]

because of your contorted presupposition that we can indeed know exactly when Jesus will return, absolutely nothing you say about Daniel 12 can be correct. Our Church respects William Miller and his valuable contribution to God's work, and in some cases his principles do apply to what we believe, but my statement still stands that we in no circumstance depend upon his rules for our interpretation of Bible prophecy. Miller had the same misconception as you do, that we could know the exact time when Jesus would come..

Question: was Miller right in the timeline concerning the 2300 days prophecy, yes or no?


My THEORY is not presupposition. It came from several years of research. I had questions in which I could find no answers to within the SDA doctrines and began to study the history of SDAism and it evolution into what it is today. It is the say way that I came to the SDA movement, I ask questions I could not find answers to and found them in this faith. I am not one to follow blindly. I have an intelligent mind that God gave me and when I have a question I seek out the answers diligently. Please do not suppose that this came out of the blue and without prayer and fasting, I have done all of this. It has taken me awhile to even build up the courage to approach this subject knowing the resistance I would face. But I feel that a proper study, starting from scratch, without prejudgment, is needed to evaluate this properly, looking at all aspects of this issue. But, it seems this will not happen.

 

[Castaway57]

I feel that a proper study, starting from scratch, without prejudgment, is needed to evaluate this properly, looking at all aspects of this issue. But, it seems this will not happen.

So let's see here. As long as we do not question you too closely, then we will be esteemed as "without prejudgment." Where have we heard that before?

I am not sure how you expect to come into an Adventist Church or onto an Adventist Forum and tell them that their core belief/s are wrong, and yet they are not allowed to disagree or question closely what you present.

If you will check my previous posts, in one of the more recent ones, I did say that some of what Miller had come up with was correct, but you dont seem to like it when I try to say that he did not have everything figured correctly. This is like some people with the Sabbath; they figure if they have the right day; then thats it, but they are too often devoid of the right spirit, and so they ruin the Sabbath truth. Its the same thing happening here. You are trying to say that because Miller had one or more points right, then we should place more credence on him and his principles than what I am relating here. but Miller was dead wrong in how he interpreted prophecy, and in how he applied rules of interpretation that he did have correct, and if this topic is supposed to be a review of Daniel 12, I don't see how Miller even ties in with it. Our church does not use him as an authoritative source. He is a valuable contributor only. The prophecies of Daniel and revelation would actually be understood quite well without even talking about Miller. The Bible text alone is quite clear. You shouldnt even have to mention Ellen White, Miller, or any other person in order to show how Adventists are supposedly wrong on that point. If you cant do it with the Bible only, then you are just standing in the long line of those who have gone before you in trying the same thing with The Adventist Church.

Absolutely nothing Miller or anyone else said, or that you say, can be counted on as any where near correct, if you are going to try to build it all on the PRESUPPOSITION/THEORY that we can know the exact time when Christ will come again. No one has ever successfully proven that point, and unfortunately, you wont either. You are right about one thing. It is definitely just a theory. You have an extremely long ways to go to even come close to proving it.

Lets start to just look at the texts themselves, and see what we can conclude when we contrast same with the official Adventist teachings:

Dan 12: 10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Dan 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

In Daniel 12:11 & 12, the Angel speaks of 1290 days and of the blessedness of a person who waits to the end of the 1335 days. The Angel does not provide for us in this text any kind of event for the close of these 1290 days, and none for either the beginning or the ending of the 1335 days, therefore it is not yet possible to state with certainty, the exact manner in which these two time prophecies were to be fulfilled. And certainly, there is nothing in Daniel 12 to suggest that we can know the exact time of Christ's coming.

I am trying to support and explain the official beliefs of The Seventh-day Adventist Church. The church that taught me about Jesus, and guided me into a saving relationship with Him. If someone comes here for the purpose of attacking that church; they can expect to get an answer from me as my time permits.

 

[taikachanz]

So let's see here. As long as we do not question you too closely, then we will be esteemed as "without prejudgment." Where have we heard that before?

I am not sure how you expect to come into an Adventist Church or onto an Adventist Forum and tell them that their core belief/s are wrong, and yet they are not allowed to disagree or question closely what you present.

You’ve asked appropriate questions, questions I’ve expected to be asked and I’ve answered them. You may not have liked or agreed with the answers, many you didn’t even comment on, but I expect that is because they do not agree with OUR fundamental doctrines or at least one of them. I could quote EGW here but I doubt that that would do any good. Your mind is made up, our doctrines say it can’t be done so therefore it can’t and shouldn’t even be tried or researched. As you stated earlier, you suspected that this was where this thread was headed and had already PREJUDGED what your reaction would be.

If you will check my previous posts, in one of the more recent ones, I did say that some of what Miller had come up with was correct, but you dont seem to like it when I try to say that he did not have everything figured correctly.

What you did was minimize Miller’s contribution to the SDA movement and it was my main point the Miller did not “have everything figured correctly.” However, if you study again our fundamental doctrine concerning the prophetic time tables you will find that we still teach that calculations of the 1290 days (starting in 508 AD and concluding in 1798 AD), the 1260 days (starting in 538 AD and also concluding in 1798 AD) and the 1335 days (starting in 508 AD and concluding in 1843/44) in opposition to what William Miller wrote concerning the mistake of Miller in combining both the 2300 days prophecy and the 1335 days prophecy.

The supposition that two of the periods of Daniel extended to the second advent constituted Mr. Miller's mistake, hence the consequent disappointment.

The realization here is that only one of the time prophecies that was used was to extend to the second advent. As it was the 2300 days prophecy that ended in 1844 with the event of the Cleansing of the Temple that leave only the 1335 days prophecy as the one the extends to the second advent. Yet we continue to teach that BOTH ended in 1844.

This is like some people with the Sabbath; they figure if they have the right day; then thats it, but they are too often devoid of the right spirit, and so they ruin the Sabbath truth. Its the same thing happening here.

Ok, let’s use the Bible to prove your point that it is not possible or that God will not reveal the answer to the 1335 time prophecy. As we do with the Sabbath truth when we show it to others, show, anywhere in the Bible, the specific verse or verses, I’ll except one even though we require more as evidence for many of our doctrinal truths, that state that it can’t be done or that God will not reveal it.

You are trying to say that because Miller had one or more points right, then we should place more credence on him and his principles than what I am relating here, but Miller was dead wrong in how he interpreted prophecy, and in how he applied rules of interpretation that he did have correct, and if this topic is supposed to be a review of Daniel 12, I don't see how Miller even ties in with it. Our church does not use him as an authoritative source. He is a valuable contributor only.

Miller is part of our church history. It is because of this that he was included into this discussion. You seem to forget that without Miller there possibly would not have been an advent movement, although I believe God would have raised someone up to get the message out but the out come would have been the same.

Again, my main point on Miller was that he did make errors concerning his interpretation of the time prophecies and I also stated that he violated some of his own rules, go back and read again those posts.

I’ve use Miller to explain why I have the questions I have and as to why I started this study in the first place.

The prophecies of Daniel and revelation would actually be understood quite well without even talking about Miller. The Bible text alone is quite clear. You shouldn’t even have to mention Ellen White, Miller, or any other person in order to show how Adventists are supposedly wrong on that point. If you can’t do it with the Bible only, then you are just standing in the long line of those who have gone before you in trying the same thing with The Adventist Church.

I have used no other sources except as references. If you look at my thread on the Holy Place you would realize that it is all derived from scripture with a thorough explanation as to how I came to the conclusion I did.

It is also helpful to understand the comparative factors of an issue, I was giving both sides of the “daily” issue as believed by earlier SDAs and I used the Bible to show wherein they were incorrect. I admit I did not specifically quote book, chapter and verse in this case but a thorough study of the setting up of the wilderness tabernacle will and the sacrificial system would reveal this as being true.

Absolutely nothing Miller or anyone else said, or that you say, can be counted on as any where near correct, if you are going to try to build it all on the PRESUPPOSITION/THEORY that we can know the exact time when Christ will come again. No one has ever successfully proven that point, and unfortunately, you won’t either. You are right about one thing. It is definitely just a theory. You have an extremely long ways to go to even come close to proving it.

Do we as SDA believe that the 2300 days prophecy ended in AD 1844? Were calculations made that resulted in that conclusion? Do we believe that the event was the Cleansing of the Temple and that Christ is now conducting an investigative judgment as was prophesied as the conclusion of the 2300 days prophecy? Was not time setting used?

How many time prophecies are there in scripture? Could they have all been calculated to come to a time of their conclusion? Does God use time prophecies as a tool to warn man concerning specific events about to happen?

They answer to all of these is yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. So tell me, of all of the time prophecies in the scriptures God chose the ones in Daniel 12 not to reveal. Does that make any sense to you?

Lets start to just look at the texts themselves, and see what we can conclude when we contrast same with the official Adventist teachings:

Dan 12: 10

Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Dan 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

In Daniel 12:11 & 12, the Angel speaks of 1290 days and of the blessedness of a person who waits to the end of the 1335 days. The Angel does not provide for us in this text any kind of event for the close of these 1290 days, and none for either the beginning or the ending of the 1335 days, therefore it is not yet possible to state with certainty, the exact manner in which these two time prophecies were to be fulfilled. And certainly, there is nothing in Daniel 12 to suggest that we can know the exact time of Christ's coming.

First of all you complete skip over the first time mentioned in Daniel 12, 1260 days.

Secondly the kind of event for the close of the end of the 1335 days is in the first three verses of the chapter. Read closely you will see, as I’ve explained before, that this is description of the resurrection at the Second Advent. This is substantiated in Daniel 2 when we look at the statue of King Neb. This statue lays out human history from the time of Babylon until the second coming which is seen in the Stone cut out without hands. This statue is also an outline of the prophetic vision that are to come later throughout Daniel’s life, ending with Daniel 12, which is when the Stone cut out without hands is to appear.

The time prophecies within Daniel 12 are to be fulfilled chronologically, 1260, 1290 and 1335. They all begin at the same time. There are two significant events that have to occur before the countdown begins, the taking away of the daily and the setting up of the abomination of desolation (Jesus said it would be in the Holy Place).

Time prophecies are like puzzle, you need all the pieces to solve it and if you don’t have the pieces you search for them until you find them.

I am trying to support and explain the official beliefs of The Seventh-day Adventist Church. The church that taught me about Jesus, and guided me into a saving relationship with Him. If someone comes here for the purpose of attacking that church; they can expect to get an answer from me as my time permits.

I understand and respect that support and that you wish to protect our fundamental beliefs as they stand. As I’ve stated, I was very reluctant to present this but I’m sort of stuck between a rock and a hard place. If this is correct and I don’t respond correctly then I will be held accountable to God. If I’m wrong and I lead other astray I’m in the same position. Tell me, what would you do?

 

[Castaway57]

Miller is part of our church history. It is because of this that he was included into this discussion. You seem to forget that without Miller there possibly would not have been an advent movement,

This shows quite a lack of knowledge regarding our Church history. Your minimizing of the fact that Miller never was a Seventh-day Adventist does not make what I said about him wrong. Miller was not ever an Adventist; he was part of a different movement, and the Seventh-day Adventist Church was a movement with pioneers that did not actually include him. If you will check more closely, you will see that our church grew out of a wide variety of movements and faith back grounds, of which Miller was a very small part. Putting it in correct perspective like this allows us to examine Daniel 12 without being encumbered by one man's rules; but rather, by the Bible alone and their were quite a number of others who contributed to our understanding of Bible prophecy, and who did not fall for the trap of saying that we can know in advance exactly when Jesus is coming. There is nothing in the Bible that tells us exactly when Jesus will come, and so you are in opposition to the Bible, not to me.

In Daniel 12:11 & 12, the Angel speaks of 1290 days and of the blessedness of a person who waits to the end of the 1335 days. The Angel does not provide for us in this text any kind of event for the close of these 1290 days, and none for either the beginning or the ending of the 1335 days, therefore it is not yet possible to state with certainty, the exact manner in which these two time prophecies were to be fulfilled. And certainly, there is nothing in Daniel 12 to suggest that we can know the exact time of Christ's coming.

The doctrine of Christ’s priesthood, together with the prophetic interpretation of Daniel 8:14, provides the Seventh-day Adventist Church with a historical identity. Adventists see their movement, not as a historical accident, but as the result of God’s special intervention in human affairs. The fulfillment of Daniel 8:14 in 1844 validates the presence of Seventh-day Adventists in the world, and particularly in the Christian community. As the initiation of Christ’s heavenly ministry coincided with the outpouring of the Spirit on the fledgling church (Acts 2:33), so the beginning of the antitypical day of atonement coincided with the birth of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. If you intend to continue trying to "adjust" the Church's historical identity, with your personal interpretations of Daniel 12, then you have no choice but to deny already established Bible facts about who we are and where we came from. New light never negates already established light, it simply adds to it.

Please show me exactly where the Bible says we can know exactly when Jesus will return. And how Daniel 12 would prove your answer.

 

[taikachanz]

Before I respond to your last post I need to make a correction in mine. I was having trouble with the internet and could not edit before in solidified the post.

What you did was minimize Miller’s contribution to the SDA movement and it was my main point the Miller did not “have everything figured correctly.” However, if you study again our fundamental doctrine concerning the prophetic time tables you will find that we still teach the calculations of the 1290 days (starting in 508 AD and concluding in 1798 AD), the 1260 days (starting in 538 AD and also concluding in 1798 AD) and the 1335 days (starting in 538 AD and concluding in 1843/44) in opposition to what James White wrote concerning the mistake of Miller in combining both the 2300 days prophecy and the 1335 days prophecy.

Please show me exactly where the Bible says we can know exactly when Jesus will return. And how Daniel 12 would prove your answer.

“And he said, Hear me now my words: If there be a prophet among you, … the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, … will speak unto him in a dream.” Numbers 12:6

“And ye shall know that I … in the midst of Israel, and the Lord your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
And it shall come to pass afterward, … I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions.
And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.” Joel 2:27-29

“Surely the Lord will do nothing be he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.” Amos 3:7

I readily admit there is no specific verse that says time prophecies can be calculated, but these are promises of God to reveal his secret(s) in his own due course. As to whether or not time prophecies can be calculated, the biblical evidence is overwhelming as has already been posted. I ask again, would God allow the calculation on the multitude of time prophecies to be determined and then exclude those in Daniel 12?

You also continue to neglect addressing the points I make concerning the evidences I have presented. Your sole argument is that it is not in line with SDA doctrine:

Is this what is has come down to:

Review and Herald June 18, 1888 “A spirit of pharisaism has been coming in upon the people who claim to believe the truth for these last days. They are self-satisfied. They have said “We have the truth. There is no more light for the people of God.” But we are not safe when we take the position that we will not accept anything else then that upon which we have settled as truth. We should take the Bible, and investigate it closely for ourselves. We should dig in the mine of God’s word for truth.”

Has our doctrine become tradition? Is some of it “hoary”?

Testimonies for the Church Vol. 6 p 142 “We need to begin all over again … Errors may be hoary with age; but age does not make error truth, nor truth error. Altogether too long have the old customs and habits been followed. The Lord would now have every idea that is false put away from teachers and students. We are not at liberty to teach that which shall meet the world’s standards or the standards of the church, simply because it is the custom to do so.”

If light comes to us and we do nothing or reject it because it doesn’t fit our “doctrine” what will be come of us?

Gospel Workers pp 300, 303, & 304 “The rebuke of the Lord will rest upon those who would bar the way, that clearer light shall not come to the people … Let no one run the risk of interloping between the people and the message of Heaven.”

As I said, I’m stuck between a rock and a hard place. And unfortunately so are you because you are accountable for the light that has been given, whether you accept it or not. Sorry.

 

[Castaway57]

I readily admit there is no specific verse that says time prophecies can be calculated, but these are promises of God to reveal his secret(s) in his own due course. As to whether or not time prophecies can be calculated, the biblical evidence is overwhelming as has already been posted. I ask again, would God allow the calculation on the multitude of time prophecies to be determined and then exclude those in Daniel 12?

.

Your quote from GW pg 300 would seem to go against your signature; but I guess that's another topic.

I see you have kind of switched things around a little bit as your ideas are questioned. We were talking specifically here about whether or not the exact date of Christ's return can be calculated re the 1335 days of Dan 12:12, or from the 1290 days of Dan 12:11, and now you are just saying "time prophecies," in general, as if I was somehow saying that time prophecies cannot be calculated. I think you know that is the farthest thing there is from the truth in this thread. Thats not what I have been saying at all. What I am saying is that you cannot find Biblical evidence to say that we will ever be able to know the exact time and date of the second coming of Jesus, and so I will continue to wait and see if you can drum something up on that. In particular, you have insinuated Daniel 12;11-12 into that question I have asked, as if those texts give us a way to "calculate" the date of Christ's second coming, and that is something else you are a very long ways off from even coming close to proving.

You quoted the following text as alleged "proof" that we can know the exact date of Christ's second coming:

Amo 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

Taking this verse out of context and trying to make it mean that God will reveal everything to us is nothing short of a poor understanding of scripture and prophecy, especially considering that God also says this:

The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law. (Deut 29:29).

The Bible is clear, that God will not, and does not, and has not, revealed everything to us.

In your comments above you called prophecy 'secrets" but the Lord does not consider it a "secret." The Bible calls it "the SURE word of prophecy." (not a secret). So there is no need to doubt what prophecy is, but there is a strong need for us to see that scripture does not condone your line of thought here on knowing the exact date of Christ's return, and no "review" or "revisiting" of Daniel 12 will tell us any different.

There is only one date revealed, and which has any importance, in Daniel 12, and you appear to have missed it completely.