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Revisiting Daniel 12

Discussion in 'Traditional Adventists-Discussion Zone' started by taikachanz, Sep 5, 2013.

  1. taikachanz

    taikachanz God's Word Stands Alone

    Here is what William Miller stated conderning 2300 days and the 1335 days prophecies (not the (13) at the end).

    "When, therefore, I found the 2300 prophetic days, which were to mark the length of the vision from the Persian to the end of the fourth kingdom, the seven times' continuance of the dispersion of God's people, and the 1335 prophetic days to the standing of Daniel in his lot, all evidently extending to the advent,(13) "

    The (13) is James White's note concerning this statement and it reads:

    "(13) The supposition that two of the periods of Daniel extended to the second advent constituted Mr. Miller's mistake, hence the consequent disappointment. J.W."

    (Herein James White observes and admits that William Miller inappropriately combined two time prophecies to come to his conclusion that Christ would return in 1843 then, after recalculation, 1844. There are only two extended time prophecies in Daniel, the first found in Daniel 8 and the second and last in Daniel 12. The 2300 days prophecy, which has been shown to have been fulfilled, is found in Daniel 8. In Daniel 12 we find the 1335 days prophecy, of which there is much controversy and of which no one can come to agreement, even in the SDA movement.)

    So the question remains, "Is a review of Daniel 12 needed?" My answer is, YES.

    I have to go to work so bbl. God Bless
  2. Leuko Petra

    Leuko Petra Following The Lamb

    Pardon me for so saying, and in charity, but you have a misunderstanding of what James White stated.

    He, James White, connects both times together, and that which was incorrect is not that they are related, but rather that both, being related, spoke of the 2nd Advent.

    The error of Miller is not in the calculation of 1843 or 1844, but rather his understanding to their significance, in relation to the event, not time. Brother Miller erred on the part where he thought those two timeframes [being related, one [1,335] a subset of the other [2,300, even as the 70 weeks [and its subsets, 7, 62, 1 [and its subsets 3 1/2 & 3 1/2]], 1,260, 1,290, 10 days and 3 1/2 days] were pointing to the 2nd Advent, when they did not.

    Brother James White is not stating that the two timeframes are exclusive of one another, or separate. Please read the remainder of James Whites material on the 1,335 and 2,300. He clearly links the two, and is in agreement with Ellen in the matter who says:

    "...Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days” [Daniel 12:8-13]. Daniel has been standing in his lot since the seal was removed and the light of truth has been shining upon his visions. He stands in his lot, bearing the testimony which was to be understood at the end of the days." [1. Sermons and Talks Volume One, p. 225.5 (1)]

    "...“Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.... Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. But go thou (Daniel) thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.” Daniel is today standing in his lot, and we are to give him place to speak to the people. Our message is to go forth as a lamp that burneth...." [3. AUCR March 11, 1907, par. 9]

    Daniel was already standing in his lot in 1907, in fact, since 1844, Oct 22.

    "...“And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? And He said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.”

    It was the Lion of the tribe of Judah who unsealed the book and gave to John the revelation of what should be in these last days.

    Daniel stood in his lot to bear his testimony which was sealed until the time of the end, when the first angel’s message should be proclaimed to our world...." [2. Testimonies to Ministers and Gospel Workers, p. 115.1 (1)]

    Notice those words in relation to the 1,335.

    Now again please consider:

    Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. Danmiel 12:12

    This is a special blessing upon those that come after that last time frame and is reiterated in Revelation 14:13.

    And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. Revelation 14:13

    Everyone which faithfully dies under the preaching of the third angels message will come up in the special resurrection. Those that did not die faithfully under this message, will come up in the Great Second resurrection... therefore, every single faithful seventh-day adventist that died in the faith, will come up in the special resurrection...

    Daniel 12:2 is the Special resurrection [that they may see Jesus come in the clouds of Glory, some righteous and some wicked] before the First Great Resurrection [of all Righteous left in the graves], see Zechariah 12:10; Revelation 1:7, 14:13 [after AD 1843, blessed are they, see also the 1,335 years, and the 3 Angels Messages of Rev 14]; Daniel 12:2,12; Matthew 23:39, 26:64; Mark 14:62, etc, see also SoP.
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2013
  3. Castaway57

    Castaway57 Born Twice

    FYI red fonts = "internet yelling." Why are you guys "yelling?"

    When you say "a review is needed" for Dan 12, are you then referring to William Miller's position on Dan 12, or the Adventist Church's official teachings, thereof? You sound like you are working up to "correction" of something here; I am just not sure what.

    If we are infact going to study Daniel 12, it is my suggestion that we do just stick to the Bible text, and let the Bible explain itself. Dan 12 is in unity with many other portions of scripture, from Gen to Rev. For some reason, a lot of people have gotten the idea that Daniel 12 is some ethereal mystical writing that "exposes" what they call "Rome," and all kinds of other fallacies, such as William Miller's blunder.

    But the good news is none of this stuff. The good news of Dan 12 has next to nothing to do with all the anti-church (Catholic or Adventist) rhetoric.

    The good news is that Dan 12 is about victory in Jesus. And how our victory is assured, and complete in Him.
  4. Leuko Petra

    Leuko Petra Following The Lamb

    Red is simply a color, as the other colors, which is used to highlight certain portions. "Yelling" is not in consideration upon my part in its use, and I took no offense in Taikachanz's responses, nor took any of it for 'yelling'. It simply serves the function to delineate, highlight and separate from the common background context.

    People's preferences are different, and the preference on the internet changes from person to person. Some say Bold is yelling, others, writing in bigger font, others underlining, others various color, others from other methods, like ALL CAPS, or multiple !!!!!!!. Personally, I like color, and so utilize it, along with all of the various tools in delineating in forums.

    If any find the color red uncomfortable, then I will choose another color for highlighting.

    I generally use green for quotations, and purple for sources of those quotations, blue for scripture, or things related to Law, or things important, and red for highlighting of sin/transgression/sacrifice, etc, or in general and sometimes magenta for highlighting apart from either. in certain instances, multiple colors are used in various ways to connect phrases, so that they pop in connection with each other, as seen in some of my responses in this very thread. I generally bold, since my eyesight is not so good, or if the majority is not bolded, I use bold to highlight, when others are uncomfortable of the color use, which seems to happen quite frequently, not sure why that is. Of course, there are exceptions to the above.

    I hope all understand I mean no offense in their use, and if the use offends, I will attempt to cease from using red any further in this thread, but sometimes I do not catch myself, and may need a reminder. :) Thank you for understanding and your patience with one who loves color, shapes and sizes.
  5. taikachanz

    taikachanz God's Word Stands Alone

    I lost everything I just did for the past hour using that stupid quick reply and then having to resign in because it timed out. That has got to be the stupidest feature on this site.

    So let's see if I can remember what is was I posted.

    I think if we are going to be doing a review purhaps it would be better to start at the beginning of Daniel, well not quite at the beginning but at Daniel 2 where we find the Statue shown to King Neb in a dream.

    When we look at this statue we see the entire history of mankind from Babylon to the Second Advent. There is more to this statue then just this history here. I look at this as I would a text book. When I pick up a text book I turn to the table of context page(s) and there is laid out all that is in the book to be learned. This is note only a list of "events" ing the book but it is also an outline of the book. So when I consider the statue I see in it the outline of the book of Daniel also. That being the case, as we go through the book of Daniel we can also go down through the statue and pinpoint each event as it happens so that when we come to Daniel 12 we find the parallel between it and the "stone cut out without hands" In essence, Daniel 12 is not ownly the last chapter in the book of Daniel it is also the last chapter in human history.

    Let us therefore start in Daniel 8, where the 2300 days/years is first given, and see what we find there.

    Daniel 8:9-14 "And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the south and toward the east, and toward the pleasant...(from this moment on I am elimnating italicized words as these were added by the translators and not in the original documents. My perference)
    And it waxed great,... to the host of heaven; and it cast down ... of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
    Yea, he magnified ... even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily ... was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
    And a host was given ... against the daily ... by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
    Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain ... which spake, How long ... ... the vision ... the daily ..., and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
    And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."

    We find here that the time period is given along with the event that is to happen at the end of the time period, the "cleansing of the sanctuary". This is an event that was conducted by the High Priest(s) once a year to clear all the sins from the sanctuary that had be stored there throughout the year via the daily sin sacrifices brought by the people to cover their sins.

    Miller mistakenly understood that the earth was the sanctuary that was being spoken of here and, combining this with the information found in Daniel 12, came to the mistaken conclusion that Christ would be returning after the 2300 days to "cleanse the sanctuary (the earth)". Thus resulting in the Great Disappointment(s).

    So was his end date correct? As I have stated previously "Every time prophecy has a definite start date and a definite end date." If we study time prophecies thoroughly we find, as William Miller did, that there are a multitude of time prophecies givin within scripture. Listed below are the ones that William Miller discovered:

    1. Seven days before the flood began, and the forty days the rain continued, were prophesied of, and literally fulfilled. See Genesis vii. 4. “For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights.” These days were literal days, and so fulfilled. Verses 10 and 12: “And it came to pass after the seventh day that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.” “And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.”

    2. Abraham was informed by God, that his seed should be afflicted in a strange land four hundred years, which, including his sojourn, would make 430 years. Gen. xv. 13. This was literally accomplished. See Exodus xii. 40, 41.

    3. The butler's and baker's dreams were interpreted to mean three days, by Joseph, and were exactly fulfilled. See Gen. xl. 12-20.
    4. The dream of Pharaoh, as explained by Joseph, meaning seven years' plenty and seven years' famine, was literally completed. See Gen. xli. 28-54.

    5. The forty years in the wilderness were prophesied and fulfilled literally. See Num. xiv. 34. Josh. v.6.

    6. Three years and a half Elijah prophesied that there would be no rain, and there was none until the time was finished. 1 Kings xvii. 1. James v. 17.

    7. Isaiah prophesied that within sixty-five years Ephraim should be broken, so that they should not be a people, Isa. vii. 8; and in sixty-five years they
    were broken and carried away by Esarhaddon, king of Babylon, B.C. 742-677.

    8. The seventy years' captivity prophesied of by Jeremiah, Jer. xxv. 11, were fulfilled between B.C. 596 and 526.

    9. Nebuchadnezzar's seven times were foretold by Daniel, and fulfilled in seven years. See Daniel iv. 25 and Josephus.

    I could at this point post what he stated after revealing this but that is not at issue at this time. The point I mean to make here is that God, when He give a time prophecy, give us the information to figure out when it will conclude, so to did He with the 2300 days/years prophecy and we find this in Chapter 9.

    "Seventy week (490 days/years) are determined(cut off/set aside/assigned - from or a portion of the 2300 days/years already given)upon thy people and upon they holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make and end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
    Know therefore and understand, ... from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem (the city, not the temple) unto the Messiah the Prince ... ... seven weeks (49 days/years), and threescore and two weeks (434 days/years) : the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times."

    There is one week remaining which is in the following verse but that is not germain to this subject now. All that is needed now is what we see here and that is that the event that starts the count down for both the 490 days/years and the 2300 days/years. Where do we find this event? In Ezra 7 we find the account of King Artaxerxes giving a letter to Ezra in which is the decree that authorizes and commands the rebuilding of Jerusalem. Historians place this date at 457 BC. Thus we now have the start date for the countdown or these two time prophecies. (actually only one time prophecy as the 490 is part of the 2300, but each period ends with a different event.)

    I will pause here for concensus.
  6. Castaway57

    Castaway57 Born Twice

    When I get time; I will reply to the rest of your post. Just thought I'd pass along a little hint that would save you this trouble in the future.

    What I do to prevent this from happening is I type all my replies into a Word document, and I have the Microsoft Word program set to auto-save every 2 minutes. This way, even if the power goes out suddenly, the most I would lose is the last sentence or two that I typed.

    It is also a good way to prevent reactive types of posts where you just reply in a huff to someone without thinking first. (I have certainly done this before). Typing it out first in your Word Processor gives you a chance to think it out a little more, and to preview what you post, and then you have the chance to more easily make revisions before others see it. :)
  7. taikachanz

    taikachanz God's Word Stands Alone

    Good idea, thanks
  8. taikachanz

    taikachanz God's Word Stands Alone

    I have been giving further study to the evidences present in scripture concerning this issue. There are a couple of things that did not occur to me until I again dug deeper into God’s word, and did a lot of praying and asking for more insight.

    Issue 1: The cleansing of the sanctuary:

    This phrase is found within the 2300 days/years prophecy:

    “And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.” Dan. 8:14

    So, what then is the cleansing of the sanctuary? To find this answer we must go to Leviticus chapter 16. Now this is a very long chapter so instead of me typing it all out and posting how about you all do some of the work and read it for yourselves. Oh, and use a AKJV bible, you never know what changes have been made to distort the original content.

    Ok, as you read through this you find that this is the ONLY feast day in which the sacrifices are allowed into the Holy. This feast day is also called the Day of Atonement, in which the sins of the nation that have been accumulating over the year are purged from the tabernacle. In this feast we find two goats, one to be sacrificed and one to be set free. The one that is set free is the scapegoat. This scapegoat is representative of Satan and depicts the sins of the world being laid upon him and being cast out from the righteous. The goat that is sacrificed represents Christ as this goat’s blood is then sprinkled about in the Holiest of Holies depicting Christ’s blood cleansing us from our sins. So in this ceremony on earth we see what Jesus did, and continues to do today, at the end of the 2300 days/years.

    Issue 2: What is happening in Daniel 12:1-3:

    When we look at Daniel 12 we do not see the cleansing of the temple but rather a gathering of the saints at the “time of the end.” If we can find the event that represents the cleansing of the sanctuary in scripture we should be able to find an event which also represents the event pictured in Daniel 12:1-3 and we do; Numbers 29.

    This chapter is even longer than that found in Leviticus and it has some very interesting features to it:

    “1. And in the seventh month, on the first … of the month, ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work: it is a day of blowing trumpets unto you.” Where in scripture do we find trumpets blowing?

    “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:” 1Thess. 4:16

    “And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” Matt. 24:30-31

    “Behold, I shew you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.
    In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall rise incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” 1 Cor. 15:51-52

    Notice also the raising of the saints in correlation to Daniel 12:1-3 in these verses.

    As we read through the rest of Numbers 29 we also find a sequence of sacrifices and an assignment of convocation days. Days 1, 10, 15, then it jumps back to the second day and gives the sacrificial requirements for each day up until the eighth day then they stop, but look back at how many days of this feast are to be observed. The sacrifices stop before the tenth day. There are actually seven days remaining and these days have no sacrifices. Is this significant? This feast is called “the feast of tabernacles” or “the feast of ingathering”. This is the feast clearly depicted in Daniel 12:1-3 and is a separate event from the one proclaimed in Daniel 8. If this is so then it also means that the timelines are also separate and must be calculated separately.

    A pause here for comment.
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2013
  9. taikachanz

    taikachanz God's Word Stands Alone

    One of the issues confronting us concerning this topic is over what is meant by “daily”. As can be seen in EGW’s writings she never really took a stand other than to say that the view that was presented before 1844 was correct. This has already been presented in earlier post so I will not now post that again. So let’s now see if we can find some concrete evidence to show one way or another, what is meant by “daily”. This shouldn’t take to long.

    Ok, for those of you who have concordances, get yours, I’m using “Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, 26th Edition, dtd May, 1965.

    Now look up the word “daily” and find the references to “daily” that are in Daniel where it relates to the taking away of the daily. Find the reference number where you will find the Hebrew translation and its meaning.

    Now look up the word “continual” and find the references to “continual” that are in Numbers 28 pertaining to the sin offering, you might want to look up these verses manually in your bibles. Find the reference number where you will find the Hebrew translation and its meaning.

    Now you tell me, what does "daily" mean and what does it represent according to scripture?
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2013
  10. Leuko Petra

    Leuko Petra Following The Lamb

    These blowing of Trumpets occur in the Festival of Trumpets, which takes place before the Day of Atonement. Please notice with me the chronological placement of the 'feast' of Trumpets:

    And in the seventh month, on the first day of the month, ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work: it is a day of blowing the trumpets unto you. Numbers 29:1

    This parallels Leviticus 23:

    Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation. Leviticus 23:24

    The announcement of the Trumpets was for the coming Judgment, which we see by the type on the Day of Atonement...

    The Day of Atonement [Tenth Day, Seventh Month] comes after the Blowing of Trumpets [First Day, Seventh Month]:

    And ye shall have on the tenth day of this seventh month an holy convocation; and ye shall afflict your souls: ye shall not do any work therein: Numbers 29:7

    This parallels Leviticus 23, and 16:

    Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD. Leviticus 23:27

    And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak unto Aaron thy brother, that he come not at all times into the holy place within the vail before the mercy seat, which is upon the ark; that he die not: for I will appear in the cloud upon the mercy seat. Leviticus 16:2


    The Feasts are given in Chronological order, even as Christ Jesus was fulfulling them, as they are listed in Leviticus 23... They cannot be out of order.

    Therefore, the 'Feast' of Trumpets is not at the Second Coming, but took place already before the Day of Atonement began. There is also a difference in the manner of "work" allowed/disallowed. In the Trumpets it states "no servile work", but in the Day of Atonement it says "[no] work".

    The Trumpet was when William Miller went forth with the messages he had... leading up to the Day of Atonement beginning Oct 22 1844 [the end of the 2,300 years].

    Daniel 12:1-3 events have not occured yet, and are well past the 'Festival' of Trumpets, since in Daniel 12:1-3 the close of Probation is seen [Daniel 12:1; Luke 13:25, etc], which means the Day of Atonement is coming to its end, even as Revelation 20 depicts in anti-type the latter portions of its type. The scapegoat, being as stated, satan, being bound and led into the wilderness [desloated earth], even as the place was to be laid low and become a habitation for dragons and owls [unclean night birds] [Isaiah 34:13], the symbols for those fallen angels which followed satan.
  11. Leuko Petra

    Leuko Petra Following The Lamb

    This was seen here, in all its uses, which deals with much more than the 'sacrifice' [which in all of Daniel's references is a supplied word], as the word 'daily' simply means that which was perpetually done [day by day [Oil, Lamp, Incense, Sacrifice, washings in the Laver, etc], or weekly [Shewbread, the seventh day it was changed, but daily before the Lord], etc] in association with the Sanctuary, in its divisions. We can also take into consideration that in Daniel 8, we see the Ram [Daily] and He-Goat [Yearly].


    Let us consider this "daily":

    "daily" [English KJV, especially in connection with Daniel 8:11,12,13, 11:31, 12:11; please note that in various translations, the word [sacrifice] or something akin, is always added and not in the original Hebrew, it was originally meant as an help, but today is abused], in Hebrew [Strong's H8548] תָּמִיד - tamiyd, meaning "1) continuity, perpetuity, to stretch; a) continually, continuously (as adverb);b) continuity (subst)" [Strong's Concordance], utilized in the KJV AV 104 times — continually 53, continual 26, daily 7, always 6, alway 4, ever 3, perpetual 2, continual employment 1, evermore 1, never 1.

    Taken from Strong's Concordance and E-Sword King James Concordance app-

    "continually" - 53
    Exodus 28:29,30, 29:38;
    Leviticus 24:2,3,4, 24:8;
    2 Samuel 9:7,13;
    1 Kings 10:8;
    2 Kings 4:9, 25:29;
    1 Chronicles 16:6,11,37,40, 23:31;
    2 Chronicles 9:7, 24:14;
    Psalms 34:1, 35:27, 38:17, 40:11,16, 50:8, 69:23, 70:4, 71:3,6, 72:15, 74:23, 109:15,19, 199:44,109,117;
    Proverbs 6:21;
    Isaiah 21:8, 49:16, 51:13, 52:5, 60:11, 65:3;
    Jeremiah 6:7, 52:33;
    Ezekiel 46:14;
    Hosea 12:6;
    Obadiah 1:16;
    Nahum 3:19;
    Habakkuk 1:17

    "continual" - 26
    Exodus 29:42;
    Numbers 4:7, 28:3,6,10,15,23,24,31, 29:11,16,19,22,25,28,31,34,38;
    2 Kings 25:30;
    2 Chronicles 2:4;
    Ezra 3:5;
    Nehemiah 10:33 (2 times);
    Proverbs 15:15;
    Jeremiah 52:34;
    Ezekiel 46:15

    "daily" - 7
    Numbers 4:16, 29:6;
    Daniel 8:11,12,13, 11:31, 12:11

    "always" - 6
    Exodus 27:20, 28:38;
    Deuteronomy 11:12;
    Psalms 16:8;
    Proverbs 5:19;
    Ezekiel 38:8

    "alway" - 4
    Exodus 25:30;
    Numbers 9:16;
    2 Samuel 9:10;
    Proverbs 28:14

    "ever" - 3
    Leviticus 6:13;
    Psalms 25:15, 51:3

    "perpetual" - 2
    Exodus 30:8;
    Leviticus 6:20

    "continual employment" - 1
    Ezekiel 39:14

    "evermore" - 1
    Psalms 105:4

    "never" - 1
    Isaiah 62:6

    Let us consider this use of the "daily" in the context of the Sanctuary services and of the Priests [Cohen], as we shall see that there was to be the "daily" ministration in the Courtyard [where the "Altar of Burnt Offering [Sacrifice]" was] and there was the "daily" ministration in the Holy Place [where the 7 Branch Candlestick, Table of Shewbread and Altar of Incense were], each with a differing work to be done.

    What is the context of Hebrews 10:11-12 speaking of in its use of the "daily" services, the Courtyard or the Holy Place?

    It is obvious that the only answer can be, of the Courtyard, since the entire context ["every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices" and "he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever"] deals with the "sacrifice" portion of the "priest", which took place in the Courtyard upon the "altar of burnt offering [sacrifice]" [Leviticus 4:10]. This "sacrifice" portion of the "priest" was/is complete, and fulfills all the type pointing to it, but more was yet to be done further in the work done in the Heavenly Holy Place upon Jesus' ascension there [becoming our Great High Priest], and at yet an even further future point, upon His moving into the Heavenly Most Holy from the Heavenly Holy Place.

    Let us consider these things further, the "daily" further and this passage a bit more, since there has been confusion in the past both from without and within.

    There were multiple "daily" [continual/perpetual/daily/cyclical] things to do in the service of the whole Sanctuary [of which Daniel was fully aware], as it is written, "...ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary..." [Hebrews 9:1].

    There was the "daily" service which took place in the Courtyard, with all of the "burnt offerings" which took place at various times according to the events, but in general there was a "burnt offering" and/or "lamb" and/or "meat offering" "day by day" [Exodus 29:38] in both the "evening" [Exodus 29:39,41; Numbers 28:4,8; 1 Chronicles 16:40; Ezra 3:3,4] and the "morning" [Exodus 29:39,41; Numbers 28:4,8; 1 Chronicles 16:40; Ezra 3:3,4; Ezekiel 46:13,14,15] times, besides all of the other times [Exodus 29:38-42; Leviticus 6:12,13,20; Numbers 4:16; 28:2-10,14-15, 23-24,31, 29:6,11,16,19,22,25,28,31,34,38; 1 Chronicles 16:40, 23:28-31; 2 Chronicles 24:14; Ezra 3:2-5; Nehemiah 10:33; Psalms 50:8; Ezekiel 46:14-16].

    Was this Courtyard service the only "daily" service to do? No.

    There was also the "daily" service which took place in the Holy Place of the Tabernacle/Sanctuary behind the first veil, wherein "...[was] the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread..." [Hebrews 9:2] and also having the "altar of incense" [Exodus 30:27].

    In Exodus 25:30, we see that "the table" [Exodus 35:13, 39:36], the "table of shewbread", "shewbread table" [2 Chronicles 29:18], "the tables whereon the shewbread [was set]" [2 Chronicles 4:19], the "pure table" [2 Chronicles 13:11]; the "table of gold" [1 Kings 7:48] was to be "set upon" "alway" ["continually/perpetually/daily"] with the "continual shewbread" [Numbers 4:3,7; 2 Chronicles 2:4], set "before the LORD" [1 Samuel 21:6] which was replaced/refreshed every week's end on the 7th Day Sabbath of the Lord thy God [Leviticus 25:4-9; 1 Samuel 21:6; 1 Chronicles 9:32], even as Numbers 4:7 and 1 Samuel 21:3-6 [see also Matthew 12:3-4; Mark 2:25-26; Luke 6:3-4 in conjunction] verifies.

    In fact, the Highpriest [Aaron] was in type to wear a mitre with a golden plackard, "continually", and was to bear "the names of the Children of Israel" [Exodus 28:29] upon Himself when He "goeth in unto the Holy [place]" [Exodus 28:29], "before the LORD" [Exodus 28:30].

    But also in the Holy Place, besides the changing of the Shewbread on the 7th day, every week "continually", there was also to be the "daily" [day by day; perpetually] service/upkeep of the "Oil", "Lamp" and "Incense" [Exodus 27:20,21, 30:1-10; Leviticus 24:2-4] and these too were to happen from "evening" [Exodus 27:21, 30:7] to "morning" [Exodus 27:21, 30:8].

    Even moreso, in the wilderness wanderings, before entering into the Promised Land, The Son of God was "alway" [daily; Numbers 9:16] in the Pillar of Cloud/Fire [Numbers 9:15,16,21], in both the "evening" [Numbers 9:15,16,21] and the "morning" [Numbers 9:15,16,21].

    As an additional insight, we also see that David, later in time, had set up priest muscians to minster "continually" [1 Chronicles 16:6,37] "before the Ark" as "every day's work required".

    There are clearly two services dealing with the "daily".

    Which "daily" [Daniel 8:11,12,13, 11:31, 12:11] does Daniel then speak of, in regards to the vision of the "evenings and mornings" [Daniel 8:13-14,26]?

    The "daily" of the "Courtyard", or the "daily" or the "Holy Place"?

    It is the "Daily" services/ministrations of the Holy Place of the Heavenly Tabernacle, since the placement of the "daily" in the "vision" reveals that the things take place long after the ascension of Jesus Christ into Heaven itself, and had already begun His High Priestly ministration there after Pentecost, and was happening long after the "sacrifice" [on earth, the Courtyard] was made.

  12. taikachanz

    taikachanz God's Word Stands Alone

    From your explanation would you therefore agree that the "Daily", according to scripture, has nothing to do with any kind of paganism? (Oh, and please review the thread "where is the Holy Place", I don't think you yet understand it's true location within the whole of the sanctuary, according to scripture.)
  13. Leuko Petra

    Leuko Petra Following The Lamb

    Done, it is understood, therefore please read - http://www.christianforums.com/t7770726-2/#post64129026
  14. taikachanz

    taikachanz God's Word Stands Alone

    I stand corrected and I do apologize, I was using the wrong scripture reference. What I meant to use was Leviticus 23 where in is described the sequence of feasts that the Israelites were to observe. The Feast of Tabernacles is found starting at verse 34. We also see this in Deuteronomy 16:13-15:

    “Thou shalt observe the feast of tabernacles seven days, after that thou hast gathered in they corn and thy wine:
    And thou shalt rejoice in thy feast, thou , and thy son, and thy daughter, and thy manservant and thy maid servant, and the Levite, the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, that … within thy gates.
    Seven days shalt thou keep a solemn feast unto the Lord thy God in the place which the Lord shall choose: because the Lord thy God shall bless the works of thine hands, therefore thou shalt surely rejoice.”

    Take note what God commands in the following verse:

    “Three times in a year shall all thy males appear before the Lord thy God in the place which he shall choose; in the feast of unleavened bread (Passover), and in the feast of weeks (Pentecost), and in the feast of tabernacles (ingathering or harvest), and they shall not appear before the Lord empty.”

    Two of these prophecies, along with four others, have been fulfilled by Christ already. There is but one remaining to be fulfilled and that is the last, the feast of tabernacles or the ingathering/harvest.

    The feast of tabernacles is a time of rejoicing and of gathering in the harvest. We as a people will rejoice when Christ returns to harvest what belongs to him. Take special note that God says we “shall not appear before the Lord empty.” It is as this time our fruits are revealed and our rewards doled out. Praise God.

    I may have originally quoted the wrong scripture but the fact that the feast of tabernacles is the last feast Christ will fulfill still remains and it still remains that that feast is portrayed in Daniel 12:1-3
  15. Leuko Petra

    Leuko Petra Following The Lamb

    Ok, no worries, happens to us all. :)

    Yes, the Feast of Tabernacles [15th of the Seventh Month] is after the Day of Atonement [10th of the Seventh Month].

    Please allow me to ask, must the Day of Atonement be complete before Feast of Tabernacles takes place?

    And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness. Leviticus 16:20

    Now, please go with me to Revelation 20. [see also Jeremiah 6:8, 17:6; Ezekiel 29:19-20, etc] Is then the Day of Atonement still going at that point?

    And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. Revelation 20:1

    And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, Revelation 20:2

    And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. Revelation 20:3

    When is the Day of Atonement done? before, or after close of probation, special resurrection, first general resurrection?
  16. Leuko Petra

    Leuko Petra Following The Lamb

    This is incorrect, please consider with me prayerfully that the place upon which stands now the Dome of the Rock is Mt. Moriah, where basically, the old earthly Temple once stood.

    Jesus and the saints, after the 1000 years, do not descend upon Mt. Moriah [where the old earthly Temple once stood, see also Genesis 22:2; 2 Chronicles 3:1], but rather they descend upon the Mount of Olives to the East... [see also Ezekiel, in connection with the Gospels, Shekinah Glory leaves the Temple and goes to the East [Mt. of Olives], just as Jesus did, SoP confirms.]

    And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. Zechariah 14:4

    Jesus left from the Mount of Olives...

    Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. Acts 1:11

    Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey. Acts 1:12

    Which leaves a huge place for the New Jerusalem to come down.

    Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. Revelation 3:12

    And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Revelation 21:2

    And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, Revelation 21:10

    Therefore... the old earthly Temple is left to them desolate, even no stone left upon another, and the Dome of the Rock is ultimately irrelevant to the scriptural fulfillment of Prophecy.
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2013
  17. Leuko Petra

    Leuko Petra Following The Lamb

    Who hath made these dates/times known unto you, even especially that last one? It is written:

    But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. Matthew 24:36

    But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Mark 13:35

    ...and yet before others say that only speaks of the "day" and "hour", see also the following text:

    And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. Acts 1:7

    But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 1 Thessalonians 5:1, etc, and as Paul continues those that do not know Christ Jesus, it will surprise them, but unto us, which are even in Him, will "watch", and know that He is "near", yes, "even at the doors", but knowing the nearness is not knowing the specific time.

    ...neither the "times" nor "seasons". Now, lest anyone say that we shall never know, goes beyond the text, for the Father, Himself [and no other] will maketh known the Day and Hour by His own Voice after probation is closed, not before. Also just as much, lest anyone use Mathew 24:36, Mark 13:35 to say then Jesus does not know, let us consider the word "knoweth" being used.

    Jesus is saying, in Matthew 24:36, Mark 13:35 that neither man, angel or Jesus will "make known", or will not reveal it or declare it, for that is left with the Father specifically.

    The word used in both passages that is translated as "knoweth", which is the Greek word "eido". The key lies within the main definition of “eido” that was understood to mean “cannot tell”.

    As an example, Paul speaking in 1 Corinthians 2:2. “For I determined to know (eido) nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.”

    Paul is using the exact same word to say that his only desire is to make known or tell of, Jesus. He is saying that he “cannot tell” of anything but Jesus. Paul wasn’t saying, “I’m ignorant of anything else but Jesus”.

    In Matthew 24:36 and Mark 13:32, Jesus is actually saying, “But of that day or hour no one will [make known or tell of], not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.”

    The SoP:

    "Many who have called themselves Adventists have been time-setters. Time after time has been set for
    Christ to come, but repeated failures have been the result. The definite time of our Lord’s coming is declared to be beyond the ken of mortals. Even the angels, who minister unto those who shall be heirs of salvation, know not the day nor the hour. “But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but My Father only.”—Testimonies for the Church 4:307 (1879).

    We are not to know the definite time either for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit or for the coming of Christ.... Why has not God given us this knowledge?—Because we would not make a right use of it if He did. A condition of things would result from this knowledge among our people that would greatly re*tard the work of God in preparing a people to stand in the great day that is to come. We are not to live upon time excitement....

    You will not be able to say that He will come in one, two, or five years, neither are you to put off His coming by stating that it may not be for ten or twenty years.—The Review and Herald, March 22, 1892.

    We are nearing the great day of God. The signs are fulfilling. And yet we have no message to tell us of the day and hour of Christ’s appearing. The Lord has wisely concealed this from us that we may always be in a state of expectancy and preparation for the second appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ in the clouds of heaven.—Letter 28, 1897.

    The exact time of the second coming of the Son of man is God’s mystery.—The Desire of Ages, 633 (1898)." [Last Day Events, Page 32-33] - [Source Link]

    "He said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. Acts 1:7.

    The times and seasons God has put in His own power. And why has not God given us this knowledge?—Because we would not make a right use of it if He did. A condition of things would result from this knowledge among our people that would greatly re*tard the work of God in preparing a people to stand in the great day that is to come.... Jesus has told His disciples to “watch,” but not for definite time. His followers are to be in the position of those who are listening for the orders of their Captain; they are to watch, wait, pray, and work, as they approach the time for the coming of the Lord; but no one will be able to predict just when that time will come; for “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” You will not be able to say that He will come in one, two, or five years, neither are you to put off His coming by stating that it may not be for ten or twenty years.... We are not to know the definite time either for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit or for the coming of Christ.

    I was pointed to some who are in the great error of believing that it is their duty to go to Old Jerusalem, [Written in the early 1850’s when “the age-to-come” advocates taught that Old Jerusalem would be built up as a center of Christian witness fulfilling certain prophecies of the O.T.] and think they have a work to do there before the Lord comes. Such a view is calculated to take the mind and interest from the present work of the Lord, under the message of the third angel; for those who think that they are yet to go to Jerusalem will have their minds there, and their means will be withheld from the cause of present truth to get themselves and others there. I saw that such a mission would accomplish no real good, that it would take a long while to make a very few of the Jews believe even in the first advent of Christ, much more to believe in His second advent." [Maranatha, Page 136, The Times And Seasons, May 8] - [Source Link]

    "They fell all the way along the path one after another, until we heard the voice of God like many waters, [Ezekiel 43:2. Joel 3:16. Revelation 16:17.] which gave us the day and hour of Jesus’ coming. [Ezekiel 12:25. Mark 13:32.]" [A Word to the Little Flock, Page 14] - [Source Link]

    God, the Father, will speak this to us just before the Second Advent, and every living Saint will hear it...but not a moment before that...

    Taikachanz, please take heed to these things. I do not know where you have heard these things which you are now placing before the people, but if the Father in Heaven Himself has not audibly spoken, and probation has not closed, then whose voice is speaking these things? Please, in all love and charity to you, consider these things, consider that to set a date is destructive to yourself and others, it can only result in loss.
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2013
  18. taikachanz

    taikachanz God's Word Stands Alone

    you forgot to mention the first part of that definition, look it up in the concordance, "a prim verb; used only in certain past tenses, the others being borrowed from the equiv. 3700 and 3708." I believe I've already explained this else where. If not we can go into this again.

    Would you believe me if I told you that God himself told me to search these things out? I doubt it, so why say where it has come from, for you would not believe. I ask you, who are you to say that God is not now revealing what he wants us to know? Did he not promise to when he was going to do a thing he would do it through dreams and visions? Does God lie? Did he not reveal through Miller the cleansing of the tabernacle? Are Gods prophets not his voice? If you hear not Gods prophets then you hear not God. Am I a prophet? I don't know, but what I do know is what God has revealed to through his word. I have two choices: 1. Keep silent and chance that the blood of those who would be lost because it is not given be on my head. 2. Do as I'm doing now and chance that I am wrong, and if I am wrong then I may suffer for delivering a message that is wrong. But the message delivered is of hope through faith. With out hope where is our faith and without faith how will we have hope?

    I don't have all the answers, some of this I am still tiring to figure out through the help of the Holy Spirit, prayer and fasting. You think it is easy for me to deliver a message that most deem impossible because that is what they've been taught? "There are things we need to learn, and many more we need to unlearn." You warn me about what I am saying here, I will return that kindness and warn you to becareful what you reject in ignorance. God will do what he will do and when he will do it.
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2013
  19. Leuko Petra

    Leuko Petra Following The Lamb

    Quite frankly, and in all candor and seriousness, No, I would not believe what was told to you brother, because, no matter what, God will not tell anyone to "search these things [context] out", when it is already given plainly in His Word, that we are not to search out such times, especially the one in question, iow the date of the Second Advent. The Holy Spirit, does not speak of himself, but speaks what He hears from the Word.

    I say again unto you brother, you are in peril, and bring into peril all whom you teach these things. The Scripture has warned, the SoP has warned, and I have warned.
  20. taikachanz

    taikachanz God's Word Stands Alone

    "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." John 5:39

    Seems to me he already did.

    Like is said, I only have two choices, either way there is "peril" to be faced. I'd rather face the peril on the side of doing something then on not. The Lord, alone, will judge.