"Reversion" rather than conversion to Islam?

[Montalban]

Hello, Nooj?

 

[Nooj]

Hello, Nooj?

Hello. I do not go onto CF all the time.

No. There's many examples of people murdering those that insulted Muhammed, and then afterwards going to him and he congratulated them

Please cite.

Understatement!

And true.

No. People are obliged, for instance to 'jihad' even if the state rules against it.

You seemingly have not read my post. I'll repeat it for you:

I can agree that Muslims do bad things because they are inspired by their religion, but said religion doesn't actually advocate those bad things. Or at least, not in that exact format. If Islam advocates death to apostates, it'll have to be done in an Islamic court in a true Islamic state. Every Muslim I've met tells me that no true Islamic state exists anymore, so the death penalty should not be carried out.

Where in the above quote have I mentioned the subject of jihad? I have not. What I have said is this:

1) Muslims do bad things because they are inspired by their religion.
2) But said religion doesn't advocate bad things in that exact format.
3) Death penalty for apostasy has to be done in an Islamic state.

I did not mention the subject of state and jihad, I have discussed the state and the death penalty. Very different things.

Jihaad for the sake of Allaah is the pinnacle of Islam, and is one of the principles of the religion. It does not depend on there being an imaam (khaleefah or ruler)

I don't know why you're talking about jihad, because I have been talking about the death penalty for apostates. Perhaps you thought that I thought a Caliphate was needed before jihad is declared, but I did not say that. I said that a Caliphate is needed before the death penalty for apostasy can be established.

You may have misinterpreted my words when I said that Islam does not advocate bad things, or at least not in the exact format of Muslim terrorists. Yes, Islam does advocate a 'bad thing' in our perspective. Jihad. War on our soldiers.

But it does not condone the perverse jihad being conducted by Muslim terrorists. Their jihad is not Islam's jihad.

The article which you cite explains that killing innocents is forbidden, which the terrorists have ignored or explained away. Terrorists are not acting Islamically. Like I keep saying, Islam is violent with restrictions. That's why my words are still correct: I can agree that Muslims do bad things because they are inspired by their religion, but said religion doesn't actually advocate those bad things. Or at least, not in that exact format.

"Such people are to be fought against when [the Muslims] have the power to do so"
http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=21757&ln=eng

Note they are very broad, including those who "prevent people being called to Islam"

But I never mentioned jihad before, so I'm puzzled why you brought it up.

Can you accept that Muslims are not mandated in Islam to kill apostates on their own?

 

[Montalban]

Please cite.

Already did this with the quote about taunting.

The title of the page (if anyone else is interested) is
Does the Quran Prohibit the Killing of Mockers? and can be found here

You seemingly have not read my post. I'll repeat it for you:
Where in the above quote have I mentioned the subject of jihad? I have not.

That's what Jihad is, struggle for the faith.

You claimed that they have to go through a legal process, I cited Moslem advice that they don't. I evidenced it. You gave opinion. Now you seem to show you don't know what it is we're talking about

What I have said is this:
1) Muslims do bad things because they are inspired by their religion.

I agree

2) But said religion doesn't advocate bad things in that exact format.

How exact do you want "Kill them" to be?

3) Death penalty for apostasy has to be done in an Islamic state.

So you say. But I've also evidenced where violence (in general) doesn't (Jihad) which you've simply asked why am I raising it.

Why death is the punishment for Apostasy

See if you can find something here about state or nation.

I don't know why you're talking about jihad, because I have been talking about the death penalty for apostates. Perhaps you thought that I thought a Caliphate was needed before jihad is declared, but I did not say that. I said that a Caliphate is needed before the death penalty for apostasy can be established.

No, as noted above in YOUR POINT 1) that we've been talking about 'bad things' in general.

But it does not condone the perverse jihad being conducted by Muslim terrorists. Their jihad is not Islam's jihad.

Show me evidence

The article which you cite explains that killing innocents is forbidden, which the terrorists have ignored or explained away.

No. The article I cite might give comfort to those who don't read it thoroughly. A child, we might count as an innocent, but see what the add to the concept of innocent...
"At times of war against the kuffaar, it is not permissible for a Muslim to deliberately kill a kaafir child or woman who is not bearing arms against the Muslims or helping in the fight."

So a child, seen to be aiding the enemy of Islam, is a legitimate target.
http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=21757&ln=eng

It's in the Koran

8:59-60 "Let not the unbelievers think that they can get the better (of the godly). They will never frustrate (them). Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies of God and your enemies and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom God doth know ..."



The issue of the Banu Nadhir; I shall like to mention the fact that Muhammed permitted that their leader be killed through trechery. Ka'b ibn al-Ashraf was a noted poet.

Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369:

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

Allah's Apostle said, "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, "You may say it." Then Muhammad bin Maslama went to Kab and said, "That man (i.e. Muhammad demands Sadaqa (i.e. Zakat) from us, and he has troubled us, and I have come to borrow something from you." On that, Kab said, "By Allah, you will get tired of him!" Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Now as we have followed him, we do not want to leave him unless and until we see how his end is going to be. Now we want you to lend us a camel load or two of food." (Some difference between narrators about a camel load or two.) Kab said, "Yes, (I will lend you), but you should mortgage something to me." Muhammad bin Mas-lama and his companion said, "What do you want?" Ka'b replied, "Mortgage your women to me." They said, "How can we mortgage our women to you and you are the most handsome of the 'Arabs?" Ka'b said, "Then mortgage your sons to me." They said, "How can we mortgage our sons to you? Later they would be abused by the people's saying that so-and-so has been mortgaged for a camel load of food. That would cause us great disgrace, but we will mortgage our arms to you." Muhammad bin Maslama and his companion promised Kab that Muhammad would return to him. He came to Kab at night along with Kab's foster brother, Abu Na'ila. Kab invited them to come into his fort, and then he went down to them. His wife asked him, "Where are you going at this time?" Kab replied, "None but Muhammad bin Maslama and my (foster) brother Abu Na'ila have come." His wife said, "I hear a voice as if dropping blood is from him, Ka'b said. "They are none but my brother Muhammad bin Maslama and my foster brother Abu Naila. A generous man should respond to a call at night even if invited to be killed." Muhammad bin Maslama went with two men. (Some narrators mention the men as 'Abu bin Jabr. Al Harith bin Aus and Abbad bin Bishr). So Muhammad bin Maslama went in together with two men, and sail to them, "When Ka'b comes, I will touch his hair and smell it, and when you see that I have got hold of his head, strip him. I will let you smell his head." Kab bin Al-Ashraf came down to them wrapped in his clothes, and diffusing perfume. Muhammad bin Maslama said. " have never smelt a better scent than this. Ka'b replied. "I have got the best 'Arab women who know how to use the high class of perfume." Muhammad bin Maslama requested Ka'b "Will you allow me to smell your head?" Ka'b said, "Yes." Muhammad smelt it and made his companions smell it as well. Then he requested Ka'b again, "Will you let me (smell your head)?" Ka'b said, "Yes." When Muhammad got a strong hold of him, he said (to his companions), "Get at him!" So they killed him and went to the Prophet and informed him. (Abu Rafi) was killed after Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/059.sbt.html#005.059.369



Muhammad called upon his followers to kill Ka'b. Muhammad ibn Maslama offered his services, collecting four others. By pretending to have turned against Muhammad (the prophet), Muhammad ibn Maslama and the others enticed Ka'b out of his fortress on a moonlit night,[10] and killed him in spite of his vigorous resistance.[13] Some attribute this action to norms of the Arab society of that period that demanded retaliation for a slight to a group's honor.[14] The Jews were terrified at his assassination, and as a Muslim biographer of Muhammad put it "...there was not a Jew who did not fear for his life".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Nadhir

That is, more terror was allowed.



And as an end-note I suppose they did get off better than their co-religionists the Banu Quraizi

Book 019, Number 4364:

It has been narrated on the authority of Ibn Umar that the Jews of Banu Nadir and Banu Quraizi fought against the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) who expelled Banu Nadir, and allowed Quraiza to stay on, and granted favour to them until they too fought against him Then he killed their men, and distributed their women, children and properties among the Muslims, except that some of them had joined the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) who granted them security. They embraced Islam. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) turned out all the Jews of Medlina. Banu Qainuqa' (the tribe of 'Abdullah b. Salim) and the Jews of Banu Haritha and every other Jew who was in Medina.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/019.smt.html#019.4364

Terrorists are not acting Islamically. Like I keep saying, Islam is violent with restrictions.

Which is an understatement. You're like saying that instead of using an atomic bomb, they use a neutron bomb, so only the people are killed, but the city is intact - and that's a way of showing a 'restriction'.

Your argument is simply truism.

I could say "The Nazis had restrictions on the use of terror". And this would be just as 'meaningful' as your own attempt at relativism.

Can you accept that Muslims are not mandated in Islam to kill apostates on their own?

Not based on you repeating it for several days, no.

I continue to cite evidence. You reply with your opinion.