"Reversion" rather than conversion to Islam?

[Futuwwa]

I was just wondering if there are Muslims who don't believe in the concept.

Well, I don't. I always found the theological basis of the idea to be a bit far-fetched.

 

[UIN]

I thinkyou don't understand the concept;

it means that the human being if he was left alone, he will search for god, he will give alms to the poor, he will pray for his god, he will make worships to satisfy his god, he will do other things like preventing his wife from having a relationship with another man, he will try to clean himself.

and for this prophets are sent, to teach the people who is their god, to tell them ho to worship him.

this is the nature I am talking about.

 

[Wyzaard]

it means that the human being if he was left alone, he will search for god, he will give alms to the poor, he will pray for his god, he will make worships to satisfy his god, he will do other things like preventing his wife from having a relationship with another man, he will try to clean himself.

Helping others and oneself be healthy... quite human. But worship an otherworldly being? I've never had that desire.

Oh... and preventing adultery is also not something I'm too concerned about.

 

[Montalban]

I think you don't wanna understand that they are a minority.Most muslims and scholars even find it Pegorative and prefer to call themselves Muslims.
Not Moslems.After all the Quran does not refer to us a moslems and neither do the Hadeeth so why then insist on what a minority beleive

Prove that they're a minority!

 

[Montalban]

ooooookkkkkk....

I know! That's his way of explaining that we're all born Moslem, (that most are then made something else).

It's to ignore the fact that people are taught Islam too.


I'm still waiting for someone to show how Arabic's the 'natural' langauge of the world's peoples (as the Koran's written in Arabic and they argue its essential to know Arabic in order to learn the Koran)

 

[Nooj]

In German, Moslem is the correct spelling. In Turkish, it's müsülman. In Bosnian, it's musliman.

Learn to live with the fact that the world has other things to do besides fulfilling your wishes.

But we're talking in English aren't we? I personally think in inter-faith conversations, Muslims should use the terms unbelievers/infidels instead of Arabic terms that can be hard to grasp for non-Muslims. Or at least they should define what the term means. I don't think I'd have a problem with the term Moslem if you were German and you explained that Moslem was the term you'd grown up with.

Wow! So they're only slaughtered by the state and not the mob! Very good!

Never said I endorsed it. I'm correcting what I see as a mistaken understanding of Islam. I personally don't like the death penalty, I think it's high time America got rid of it. Not to mention China, Iran, Saudi Arabia and all those other countries.

 

[Montalban]

But we're talking in English aren't we?

Indeed! I cited a dictonary to support my stance. It's just a variant of spelling.

Here's some more dictionaries
Dictionary

Dictionary

Dictionary

Dictionary

Dictionary

Dictionary

Dictionary

Dictionary

The Columbia Guide to Standard American English.

So, 10 English reference sources, and many Islamic sources are all happy with the form M-O-S-L-E-M. Don't let that evidence get in your way though!

Never said I endorsed it. I'm correcting what I see as a mistaken understanding of Islam. I personally don't like the death penalty, I think it's high time America got rid of it. Not to mention China, Iran, Saudi Arabia and all those other countries.

Islam supports the death penalty.

Muhammed oversaw when men were slaughered after they'd surrendered. He applauded political killings of his enemies (though this would be more 'assassinations' *) and there's a lot of consensus on the prescribed punishment for apostates


*-a word that comes from Arabic

 

[yaqovzadeek]

Indeed! I cited a Islam supports the death penalty.

Muhammed oversaw when men were slaughered after they'd surrendered. He applauded political killings of his enemies (though this would be more 'assassinations' *) and there's a lot of consensus on the prescribed punishment for apostates


*-a word that comes from Arabic

Why don't you guys ever support your claims with evidence and genuine ones i mean it is easy to say Mohamed done this, said this and so one where is the proof?
Peace
yaqovzadeek
aka james the just

 

[yaqovzadeek]

Prove that they're a minority!

You quoted from them, prove that this is the majority view in Islam. A follower of Islam considers himself a muslim.One who follows Islam submits himself to the will of GOD is a muslim, not a moslem.You are trying to play word games and take others away from the OP.You as an outsider think you have a greater authority on knowing the name of the Adherents of the world second largest religion than the adherents themselves, just by basing on a few searches you have done here and there.
There is no translation of the Quran where the word moslem is used( well at least not one translated by a muslim), nor in any hadeeth is that not evidence enough, against your minority that you have posted?
Peace
yaqovzadeek
aka James the just

 

[yaqovzadeek]

Indeed! I cited a dictonary to support my stance. It's just a variant of spelling.

Here's some more dictionaries
Dictionary

Dictionary

Dictionary

Dictionary

Dictionary

Dictionary

Dictionary

Dictionary

The Columbia Guide to Standard American English.

So, 10 English reference sources, and many Islamic sources are all happy with the form M-O-S-L-E-M. Don't let that evidence get in your way though!

By the way in your dictionary meaning you left out something.May be deliberately since it does not fulfill your agenda.Read this:
MUSLIM, MISUSES OF: Caution. The word "Muslim" refers to those who follow the Islamic religious faith, found in many countries and, increasingly, the United States. Most of the world's Muslims are found outside of the Middle East. Indonesia, for example, has the world's largest Muslim population. Nearly 90 percent of its 228 million people (July 2001 est.) are followers of Islam. The preferred spelling to use is "Muslim" rather than "Moslem." In the same way as the word "Hindoo" was used by the British to refer to Hindus, the word "Moslem" was used by them for Muslims. It was often used as a slur and therefore many Muslims consider "Moslem" to be a derogatory term. Under deadline pressure, American journalists sometimes use "Muslim" too broadly, as if it were a more specific official term, like Republican or GOP. Just as it would be a mistake to quote one Catholic group to represent all Catholic groups in Northern Ireland, it would be a mistake to say there is an overall Muslim position on any issue.
source
Here read this too my point exactly.
And while you're at it read this too.
I can find you loads more but as i am saying the issue that Muslims in general against a minority refer to themselves as muslims as mentioned in the Quran and Hadeeth.So i don't think I need to go much further in explaining this.
Peace
yaqovzadeek
aka james the Just

 

[Montalban]

Why don't you guys ever support your claims with evidence and genuine ones i mean it is easy to say Mohamed done this, said this and so one where is the proof?
Peace
yaqovzadeek
aka james the just

You don't accept proofs. I've posted two posts of loads of proofs just on 'valid spelling' and you don't accept it!

 

[Montalban]

You quoted from them, prove that this is the majority view in Islam.

I don't claim they're a majority; only that it was an accepted variation.

You made the claim that what I cited is a minority. Onus therefore being with you.

Thank you, and good night.

 

[Montalban]

By the way in your dictionary meaning you left out something.May be deliberately since it does not fulfill your agenda.

I didn't quote from that source at all, therefore there was no 'ommission' as you suggest. If I'd quoted from that source, but left out what you cited, then you'd have a valid point.

I can find you loads more but as i am saying the issue that Muslims in general against a minority refer to themselves as muslims as mentioned in the Quran and Hadeeth.So i don't think I need to go much further in explaining this.

You're a riot! You just repeat your assertion it's a minority view

And, in a debate about English useage, you quote a blog-spot! ???

Your own cite http://hnn.us/articles/524.html says that it's a valid English spelling! And it examples Moslem sites that use the spelling M-O-S-L-E-M

I take it you didn't read all your own 'evidence'

 

[Nooj]

Islam supports the death penalty.

But I don't support Islam, duh. And Islam supports the death penalty under an Islamic state for apostates. You can't just willy-nilly kill someone because they defamed a prophet.

Muhammed oversaw when men were slaughered after they'd surrendered.

So what? How does this affect me? I'm not a Muslim, I don't follow what I consider to be a violent religion. I'm pointing out your mistakes. Just admit them and move on.

He applauded political killings of his enemies (though this would be more 'assassinations' *) and there's a lot of consensus on the prescribed punishment for apostates

Under an Islamic state.

*-a word that comes from Arabic

Well aware of that when I was studying the Mongols. It comes from Hashashin.

To the best of my knowledge, assassinations aren't advocated by the Qur'an. Doesn't stop Muslims from doing whatever they like.

 

[Montalban]

But I don't support Islam, duh.

I don’t claim that you do support it.

And Islam supports the death penalty under an Islamic state for apostates. You can't just willy-nilly kill someone because they defamed a prophet.

Actually that happens too! They then sanction, post facto 'honour killings' and the like

So what? How does this affect me? I'm not a Muslim, I don't follow what I consider to be a violent religion. I'm pointing out your mistakes. Just admit them and move on.

You’re not willing to deal with evidence (as per the term Moslem)

You make an attempt at an apology for islam, like there’s a massive difference between murder and religious sanctioned murder.

To the best of my knowledge, assassinations aren't advocated by the Qur'an. Doesn't stop Muslims from doing whatever they like.

Moslems don’t just believe in what’s in the Koran.

 

[Nooj]

Actually that happens too! They then sanction, post facto 'honour killings' and the like

'Honour' killings aren't Islamic either, they're more of a cultural thing. You won't find 'honour' killings in the Qur'an or hadiths.

It's impossible to deny that Muslims do bad things, and they sometimes do these bad things by saying that Islam allows or demands that they do these bad things.

But it is incorrect, and I will point this out to anyone who claims so.

You’re not willing to deal with evidence (as per the term Moslem)

Are you German and have you grown up with the term Moslem? If German is your native language, there is no perjorative associations in that language with 'Moslem', so feel free to use the term because you're accustomed to it.

If you aren't German and if you haven't encountered the term Moslem before, why do so? It is simple enough to say Muslim, a term that is less offensive to Muslims and more conducive to inter-faith dialogue.

You make an attempt at an apology for islam, like there’s a massive difference between murder and religious sanctioned murder.

Murder is murder, whether a religious person does it or a non-religious person does it or God himself/herself/itself does it.

What I cannot abide is people either lying about Islam, or being totally ignorant as to not know that Islam doesn't allow certain acts. Extra-judicial killings for apostasy is one of them. You need a court.

Moslems don’t just believe in what’s in the Koran.

Assassinations aren't advocated in the hadiths either.

 

[Montalban]

'Honour' killings aren't Islamic either, they're more of a cultural thing. You won't find 'honour' killings in the Qur'an or hadiths.

You might have a point about this, but not about the execution of those that insult the prophet.

It's impossible to deny that Muslims do bad things, and they sometimes do these bad things by saying that Islam allows or demands that they do these bad things.

I never argued "Moslems do bad things" which is a truism.

I argued Moslems may do bad things because they're inspired to by their religious teachings.

Are you German and have you grown up with the term Moslem?

I'm not German, but I have indeed grown up with the spelling - it's the SAME term.

Murder is murder, whether a religious person does it or a non-religious person does it or God himself/herself/itself does it.

Good, we agree on this point.

However one can examine why people did such an act, and some do so because of Islam

What I cannot abide is people either lying about Islam, or being totally ignorant as to not know that Islam doesn't allow certain acts. Extra-judicial killings for apostasy is one of them. You need a court.

No. You need a court to judiciously murder them, but people can be murdered by a fatwa not made by a court, and also the Hadith have examples of people being murdered for insulting the prophet, and then post facto getting approval of it by Muhammed

 

[Montalban]

But (even so), if they repent, establish regular prayers, and practise regular charity, - they are your brethren in Faith: (thus) do We explain the Signs in detail, for those who understand. But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and taunt you for your Faith, - fight ye the chiefs of Unfaith: for their oaths are nothing to them: that thus they may be restrained. S. 9:11-12 Y. Ali

quote given at
http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Menj/asma_afak2.htm

 

[Nooj]

You might have a point about this, but not about the execution of those that insult the prophet.

An individual cannot willy-nilly kill someone because they insulted the Prophet. You can't take the law into your own hands, and that's the way I understand it.

I argued Moslems may do bad things because they're inspired to by their religious teachings.

But their religious teachings put a certain limit to violence.

I can agree that Muslims do bad things because they are inspired by their religion, but said religion doesn't actually advocate those bad things. Or at least, not in that exact format. If Islam advocates death to apostates, it'll have to be done in an Islamic court in a true Islamic state. Every Muslim I've met tells me that no true Islamic state exists anymore, so the death penalty should not be carried out.

I'm not German, but I have indeed grown up with the spelling - it's the SAME term.

With a perjorative association. It can be construed as offensive. It's almost as bad as a racial insult. If a Muslim asks you to stop and use the term Muslim instead, what reason do you have for not doing it?

However one can examine why people did such an act, and some do so because of Islam

Some feel it is their Islamic duty to do so. But Islam doesn't actually say that they can do it.

No. You need a court to judiciously murder them, but people can be murdered by a fatwa not made by a court, and also the Hadith have examples of people being murdered for insulting the prophet, and then post facto getting approval of it by Muhammed

That's interesting and disturbing, I'd like to see the references for that hadith so I can look up the isnad. Some hadiths have weaker narrators than others.

But (even so), if they repent, establish regular prayers, and practise regular charity, - they are your brethren in Faith: (thus) do We explain the Signs in detail, for those who understand. But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and taunt you for your Faith, - fight ye the chiefs of Unfaith: for their oaths are nothing to them: that thus they may be restrained. S. 9:11-12 Y. Ali

Referring to pagans who abandon the treaty that they signed. Not applicable for everyday use. How many pagans nowadays sign treaties with Muslim tribes?

 

[Montalban]

An individual cannot willy-nilly kill someone because they insulted the Prophet. You can't take the law into your own hands, and that's the way I understand it.

No. There's many examples of people murdering those that insulted Muhammed, and then afterwards going to him and he congratulated them

But their religious teachings put a certain limit to violence.

Understatement!

I can agree that Muslims do bad things because they are inspired by their religion, but said religion doesn't actually advocate those bad things. Or at least, not in that exact format. If Islam advocates death to apostates, it'll have to be done in an Islamic court in a true Islamic state. Every Muslim I've met tells me that no true Islamic state exists anymore, so the death penalty should not be carried out.

No. People are obliged, for instance to 'jihad' even if the state rules against it.
Jihaad for the sake of Allaah is the pinnacle of Islam, and is one of the principles of the religion. It does not depend on there being an imaam (khaleefah or ruler)
http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=5275&ln=eng

"Such people are to be fought against when [the Muslims] have the power to do so"
http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=21757&ln=eng

Note they are very broad, including those who "prevent people being called to Islam"

With a perjorative association. It can be construed as offensive. It's almost as bad as a racial insult. If a Muslim asks you to stop and use the term Muslim instead, what reason do you have for not doing it?

A Moslem would ask me to stop being an infadel too! Moslems call the practicing of Chrisitanity evil. They say I should stop it.

As noted it's a valid usage for the ENGLISH language

Some feel it is their Islamic duty to do so. But Islam doesn't actually say that they can do it.

That's interesting and disturbing, I'd like to see the references for that hadith so I can look up the isnad. Some hadiths have weaker narrators than others.
Referring to pagans who abandon the treaty that they signed. Not applicable for everyday use. How many pagans nowadays sign treaties with Muslim tribes?

That depends on whether it's confined to pagans now.

But I note you're still not big on evidence.