Revelation Written in Nero's Reign

[JohannineScholar]

nvm

 

[Winken]

A recent discussion in the eschatology forum saw the claim that Revelation was written during Domitian's reign. Only one unambiguous early writer (before Eusebius) was mentioned--Victorinus. The true state of the matter is as follows.

Domitianic Dating:
Victorinus (third/fourth century)
Eusebius (fourth century)
Jerome (fourth/fifth century)

Neronian Dating:
The Acts of John (second century)
Irenaeus (probable) (second century)
Tertullian (second/third century)
Clement of Alexandria (third century)
Tyconius (fourth century)
Syriac version of Revelation (perhaps as early as fourth century)
The Syriac History of John (perhaps late fourth century)
The Acts of John by Prochorus (fifth century)

Claudian Dating:
Muratorian Canon (second/third century)
Epiphanius (fourth century)

As my Mom used to say, "I think they lost their measuring stick." In any event, I'll vote for pre-70 a.d., not later than 90 a.d.

Be blessed as you sort it all out!

 

[Revealing Times]

A recent discussion in the eschatology forum saw the claim that Revelation was written during Domitian's reign. Only one unambiguous early writer (before Eusebius) was mentioned--Victorinus. The true state of the matter is as follows.

Domitianic Dating:
Victorinus (third/fourth century)
Eusebius (fourth century)
Jerome (fourth/fifth century)

Neronian Dating:
The Acts of John (second century)
Irenaeus (probable) (second century)
Tertullian (second/third century)
Clement of Alexandria (third century)
Tyconius (fourth century)
Syriac version of Revelation (perhaps as early as fourth century)
The Syriac History of John (perhaps late fourth century)
The Acts of John by Prochorus (fifth century)

Claudian Dating:
Muratorian Canon (second/third century)
Epiphanius (fourth century)

It was Written in the Fourth Beasts Reign.......It doesn't matter who the King/Emperor was.

 

[victorinus]

It was Written in the Fourth Beasts Reign.......It doesn't matter who the King/Emperor was.

how do you explain this?
Revelation 17:8New King James Version (NKJV)
8 The beast that you saw was, and is not,

 

[John 1720]

As my Mom used to say, "I think they lost their measuring stick." In any event, I'll vote for pre-70 a.d., not later than 90 a.d.

Be blessed as you sort it all out!

I think there are multiple factors worth considering in order to find the most viable date for Revelation. One that is often neglected is the identification of the seven churches and the non-identification of known AD 60 churches. This is especially true for Laodicea, which is located in the Lycus valley, as well as the non mention of other hot spots for churches that would have been thriving in the early 60's.

Colossae for example is not mentioned in Revelation, even though Paul wrote them a letter in the early 60's. It was decimated by an earthquake in or about AD 61-62 in the latter part of Nero's reign as best as we can tell. I've been there and it pretty much must have been the epicenter of the quake for it was never rebuilt - no attempts have been made to this day. All that remains of it is a very large mound where the city was once was. It is a completely buried city.

The tectonic movements that took place in the fault depression of the Menderes river basin did not only cause frequent earthquakes, but also gave rise to the emergence of a number of very hot springs. It is the water from one of these springs, with its large mineral content—chalk in particular—that created Pamukkale."

So it is probable that the hot springs were probably formed post earthquake - with supplemental earthquakes that followed in the years afterward creating more hot springs that would feed the city of Laodicea.

Hieropolis, another Bastion of early Christianity according to the early church fathers, was also greatly impacted by the earthquake and was rebuilt in the time of Hadrian, who was Roman Emperor from from AD 117 to AD 138. The disuse of this city is also indicative that it may not have been around when Revelation was written - so it was no longer a central hub of the Christian church either.
Hieropolis was ,in fact, the source of the hot-spings which rolled down to Laodicea. There it mixed in with the cold water sources and became "lukewarm", which Jesus, by way of John the prophet, uses as a metaphor - "You are neither hot nor cold but because you are lukewarm I will spew you out of my mouth." Hieropolis, as we know, is not listed within the churches of Revelation either.

The theatre at Hierapolis was built in the second century AD under the Roman Emperor Hadrian during a period of extensive rebuilding following a devastating earthquake in the early 60's AD. The city was later renovated under Hadrian.

Lastly, let's look at John' testimony in and of itself. He said he was banished to Patmos. Early witnesses ascribe this to Domitian's persecution.
John of Patmos - Wikipedia
Domitian reigned from from AD 81 to AD 96. It is attested to, by early Christian witness (ECF), that John was released after Domitian's demise.

Justin Martyr (A.D. ca. 114-165): John the apostle prophesied the revelation (Dialog with Trypho 81).
Muratorian Fragment: The fragment includes the Apocalypse as having been written by John.
Irenaeus: The apocalypse was seen towards the end of Domitian's reign, by John (Against Heresies, 5.30). He is not labeled as the apostle in this passage, but Irenaeus frequently refers to John the apostle elsewhere, and no other Johns. Domitian was put to death in A.D. 96.
Clement: John went to Ephesus after Patmos (Who Is the Rich Man That Shall Be Saved -42).

In summary I think it is a glaring mistake not to put some type of weight to the geological and cultural history into context with the genesis of Revelation. It would indeed be a tiny window of support for stating that Revelation was written prior to the destruction of Jerusalem. I also believe it is downright problematic to impeach the witness of Irenaeus, the spiritual grandson of the Apostle John. The Early Church Fathers attestied to John's imprisonment on the Isle of Patmos during Domitin's reign. That is a buttress of support for a post 80's to mid 90's writing. John does not mention being released from Patmos and we know he was in AD96 and then lived up until the time of Trajan. We can further filter with a better understanding of when Domitian's persecution's began. There is some evidence of him erecting statues of himself in Ephesus. If we could date that I think we could link it to the beginning of the Christian persecution because Christians would not have bowed down to the directive that they must worship the emperor. I'd give the persecution a few years to have impacted John so I'd estimate Revelation's genesis to be between AD 85 and AD 95.

In Christ, Pat

 

[John 1720]

Another factor from tradition is the martyrdom of Antipas of Pergamum.
Antipas of Pergamum - Wikipedia

The traditional account goes on to say Antipas was martyred in ca. 92 AD by burning in a brazen bull-shaped altar for casting out demons worshiped by the local population.

It is not as weighty as the witness of Irenaeus but that would push the prophecy of Revelation out between AD 92 to AD 95, which is still within the previous band of dates, based on other empirical data.

 

[Revealing Times]

how do you explain this?
Revelation 17:8New King James Version (NKJV)
8 The beast that you saw was, and is not,

There is really nothing to explain there. It can be a couple of things, but neither has an impact on who/what the Beast in Rev. 13 and 17 is.

It could a Demonic entity that Satan gave the power to come against and try and destroy Israel. Apollyon is called the Destroyer. He could have been bound up by God until Israel was a Nation again etc. etc. etc. But what ever the situation, we understand what the Seven Headed Beast is.

It could be the Fact that the BEAST is a Conqueror of Israel, and if there is no Israel, there can be NO BEAST..........So the Beast that was (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome........But IS NOT...Because at the time of this writing Israel was no more, they were scattered, but yet the BEAST IS.........Because it will live again in the Anti-Christ.

It is variable/arguable, but I never worried about it much, because it doesn't matter, as King as we know the 7th Head of the Beast will be the Anti-Christ.

 

[JohannineScholar]

I think there are multiple factors worth considering in order to find the most viable date for Revelation.

There are a lot of inaccuracies in your post which undermine all the conclusions. If it was that simple, there wouldn't be a discussion. The earthquake was in AD 60 and Colossians could have been written as early as 54/55, so there is no problem with an early date there. Hierapolis was rebuilt in AD 60, after the earthquake.

Lastly, let's look at John' testimony in and of itself. He said he was banished to Patmos. Early witnesses ascribe this to Domitian's persecution.

Early witnesses ascribe it to Claudius, Nero and Domitian. You've clearly not looked into this much.

In summary I think it is a glaring mistake not to put some type of weight to the geological and cultural history into context with the genesis of Revelation.

People do put weight on these things. You've just misunderstood the nature of the evidence and have consequently drawn mistaken inferences.

I also believe it is downright problematic to impeach the witness of Irenaeus, the spiritual grandson of the Apostle John.

Irenaeus supports a Neronian dating of Revelation, not Domitianic.

The Early Church Fathers attestied to John's imprisonment on the Isle of Patmos during Domitin's reign.

What do you mean by 'imprisonment'?

 

[Anto9us]

The martyrdom of Antipas being firm in 90's is NOT...

some Greek Orthodox evuivalent of " Fox's Book of Martyrs"
said Antipas may have been martyred in Nero's reign...

That was the last nail in the wall to dismiss preterism -- Antipas -- and when I saw ambivalence in ancient sources, I threw up my hands...

I wish I had links/refrences

but ya know this deal of Antipas dyed in nineties may not be true
maybe he died in Nero"s reign

sometimes I feel the originals of ALL of the NT were done prior to 70 AD

 

[JohannineScholar]

The martyrdom of Antipas being firm in 90's is NOT...

some Greek Orthodox evuivalent of " Fox's Book of Martyrs"
said Antipas may have been martyred in Nero's reign...

That was the last nail in the wall to dismiss preterism -- Antipas -- and when I saw ambivalence in ancient sources, I threw up my hands...

I wish I had links/refrences

but ya know this deal of Antipas dyed in nineties may not be true
maybe he died in Nero"s reign

sometimes I feel the originals of ALL of the NT were done prior to 70 AD

I wish you remembered the source of this. I don't think there is actually any information about him other than what is found in Revelation. People quote Foxe as though that is a source, but Foxe is simply dating it based on his understanding of when Revelation was written.

 

[Anto9us]

I will look for it JohannineScholar
it was NOT Fox's book of martyrs, just something similar to it from Orthodox scholars

 

[Anto9us]

Hieromartyr Antipas the Bishop of Pergamum and Disciple of St John the Theologian

that one flat out says Antipas was during Nero's reign -- it was not what I originally saw

 

[Anto9us]

Saint Antipas of Pergamum: A Martyr of the Apocalypse | MYSTAGOGY RESOURCE CENTER

ESCHATOLOGIA: Saint Antipas of Pergamum: A Martyr of the Apocalypse

There's a couple more sites that point to the "Nero reign" martyrdom of Antipas

I simply cannot find what I originally saw, that admitted that some say he was martyred in Nero's reign, and some say in Domitian's (92 AD)

Like the dating of Revelation itself, it seems the martyrdom of Antipas has a minority view that it was done in Nero's reign -- whereas majority of scholars go with the late date

 

[JohannineScholar]

I'm going to have to look into this. Thank you!