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Featured Revelation in order?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Bipolargirl, Jan 10, 2019 at 8:09 PM.

  1. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    The return of Christ is certainly foundational.
     
  2. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    There is nothing in the text indicating some convoluted overlapping judgments, that's in an invention that simply distorts the natural narrative.
     
  3. timewerx

    timewerx the village i--o--t--

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    I'm fully aware of it.

    However, the chronological order is important in setting the right context. It's a bit absurd to use the context of much earlier written texts instead of the latest written texts.
     
  4. timewerx

    timewerx the village i--o--t--

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    I'm not talking about how each book of NT recants events in chronological order.

    I'm talking about how the books of NT are not arranged in chronological order of the time it was written.

    It's not the timeline of the events I'm more concerned about but the context of the overall message of the NT which with sound reasoning, should be set by the books last written.

    If the Book of Revelation is a major issue enough among denominations disagreeing about the timeline of events, think about the issue of non chronological arrangement of NT books would pose. It actually makes a lot more sense to read NT by the chronological order of writing than the canon arrangement.

    It actually brings whole new understanding and be able read books of the Bible that are very rarely preached in churches anymore! :eek:
     
  5. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    All of the text of the bible has to be considered because Revelation is not stand alone.
     
  6. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    It is not going to happen - changing the bible to some other arrangement - because it is a flawed idea to begin with.
     
  7. _Dave_

    _Dave_ New Member

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    I agree with others who have stated that Revelation has chronological chapters building to a conclusion illustrating what is happening on earth in the future, interspersed with parenthetical chapters illustrating what is going on in heaven inbetween times. Think of the parenthetical chapters as intermissions in a play where the curtain goes down and actors come out to explain some of the background of what the audience has just been watching, or what they will be seeing soon.

    Specifically about the order of events of the seals, trumpets and vials or bowls ...

    John is called up to heaven to witness end times events. As the events beginning with Chapter 6 start to unfold here is what he witnesses:

    Rev 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb (Jesus) opened one of the seals ...
    Rev 6:3 And when he had opened the second seal ...
    Rev 6:5 And when he had opened the third seal ...
    Rev 6:7 And when he had opened the fourth seal ...
    Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal ...
    Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal ...
    Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal ...

    Rev 8:7 The first angel sounded ...
    Rev 8:8 And the second angel sounded ...
    Rev 8:10 And the third angel sounded ...
    Rev 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded ...
    Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded ...
    Rev 9:13 And the sixth angel sounded ...
    Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded ...

    Rev 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial ...
    Rev 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial ...
    Rev 16:4 And the third angel poured out his vial ...
    Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial ...
    Rev 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial ...
    Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial ...
    Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial ...

    And ... And ... And ...

    Following the syntax of the grammar, there can be no question that each seal opening, trumpet sounding and vial being poured out occurrs consecutively and in the order given, interspersed with activity of varying duration both on earth and in heaven. The seal openings in particular could only occur in consecutive order and one at a time because of the way that ancient scrolls were sealed as divisions, like chapters in a book.

    Each trumpet sounding and poured vial heralded an event; which began to take place before the next sounding or vial.
     
  8. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    Just not buying it, the way the book is organized as seals at the beginning, trumpets literally and textually right in the middle and vials of wrath at the end. Overlapping judgments happening together makes no expositional sense, to me at any rate.
     
  9. Dr. D Bunker

    Dr. D Bunker Member

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    bye bye
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2019 at 10:54 AM
  10. Dr. D Bunker

    Dr. D Bunker Member

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    bye
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2019 at 10:54 AM
  11. _Dave_

    _Dave_ New Member

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    Then it sounds like you agree with me. Maybe I misread your comment.
     
  12. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    For what you want to know and the concerns you have over the mark of the beast - you are getting a lot of bad advice in this thread of how to go about it.

    To get on board as fast as possible, you only need a few verses and chapters in the bible.

    Revelation is tied together with the following passages in the bible - which everyone here discussing the various topics in this forum on a regular basis are thoroughly familiar with.

    The first three
    , you have to know like the back of your hand, know as well as your own name. All of the passages can be read in less than hour or so - so you don't have to spend a lifetime to get on board. Order of importance, for what you are after....

    1. Revelation 13
    2. Matthew 24:14-31
    3. Daniel 9:26-27

    4. Daniel 7
    5. Ezekiel 38-39
    6. Daniel 2:26-49

    Learn those passages inside and out. And come here to this forum and look through the various topics and read what people have to say. And participate with comments and questions as you see fit.

    Basically, there are four different end times views being expressed in all the threads.
    1. that the arch villain of the end times is a Jew and will come out of Europe.
    2. that the arch villain is the Pope/Papacy
    3. that the arch villain will be a muslim
    4. that most of the prophecies have already taken place - partial preterist view.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019 at 11:02 AM
  13. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

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    No, it's not in order, and secondly its not confusing, people just can't understand it until they understand its encoded with the Old Testament.

    The Order of the Book of Revelation.
    1.) In Rev. 1 Jesus is shown in his Glory. (The things which you HAVE SEEN).

    2.) In Rev. 2 and 3 we are shown the 7 Churches of Asia Minor/Church Age. (Things which ARE.)

    3.) In Rev. 4 and 5 we see the Church in Heaven before the Seals are opened. Rev. 4:1 represents the Rapture, Rev. 4:4 is the church in white, Rev. 5:9 is the Redeemed Multitude. (The things which will be HEREAFTER. This means everything after Rev. 4 is the hereafter/after the Church Age.)

    4.) Rev. chapters 6, 7, 8, 9, 15&16 is how the order of the Book of Revelation runs, the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments start with the First Seal and run to the 7th Vial. Then an Angel says "It is done".

    5.) Rev. 20, 21 and 22 finish off the order of the book of Revelation. The Judgment seat, the 1000 year reign and the New Jerusalem.

    All the other chapters are parenthetical citations that cover some portion of the chapters above, some cover the full 7 year tribulation/70th week. These chapters are set in the events of the Seal, Trumpet and Vials mostly. Some explain events that cover a certain time period (Two-witnesses/Rev. 11), some explain the Rapture/Marriage/Second Coming (Rev. 19), some explain the Harvest via the Rapture (Rev. 14:14) whilst also explaining the Wheat (Israel Rev. 14:1/144,000) and the Wicked Tares (Rev. 14:18-20) that die at Armageddon.

    Most of theses other chapters start at the First Seal which is Rev. chapter 6, the middle of the Week when the Anti-Christ reneges on all his Agreements. Rev. 12 is the Woman (Israel) that Flees for 1260 days. Rev. 13 is the Anti-Christ/Beast that rules for 1260 days. Rev. 17 is All False Religion that the Kings in league with the Beast Destroys in Rev. 17:16 because the Beast is THE ONLY GOD that can be worshiped on earth !! Thus Islam is wiped out with all other Religions, thus the Harlot is KILLED OFF.

    Rev. 18 is Babylon, not the Harlot, the Kings hate the Harlot but cry and lament Babylon's burning. Babylon = the Whole World or Satan's Dark Kingdom on earth. Thus Rev. 18 is the WORLD (Babylon) getting hit with the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments of God. So it runs from ch. 6-16. We understand this because Rev. 16:19 says God sees her as Babylon when He destroys the Nations that come against him at Armageddon. And they were gathered at Vial #6 from the kings of the WHOLE WORLD, thus Babylon is the whole world. It is as plain as day.

    Rev. 11 is all about the Two-witnesses 1260 day ministry. Since both them and the Beast are in their appointed offices for 1260 days, and they die before the Beast at the 2nd Woe, we therefore know they must show up Before the Beast comes to power, and that's just what Malachi 4:5-6 says. Elijah will be sent back before the DOTL to turn Israel back unto God. So Rev. 11 runs from just before the First Seal is opened (75 days before IMHO) to the 2nd Woe which I assume happens 75 days before the 7th Vial.

    That is the order, the understanding thereof is a much longer proposition.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019 at 10:47 AM
  14. Q-T

    Q-T Soldier of Christ

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    Hello Doug, it is nice to meet you for the first time. I am glad to see that you are entusiatic about understanding End Times Prophecy, as it is a meaty and important subject, and I look forward to discussing those passages and more with you in the near future. In reading your response to the encouragement that I gave to the author of this thread, I must admit that I can't but but disagree with the disagreement, as the Godly advice with encouragement is in line with what Apostle Paul instructed to Timothy. Let's please allow for Apostle Paul's instruction given in the following passage with a highlight from chapter 3 to provide us the full clarification as to the importance of reading the entirety of The Holy Bible. In sharing the passage, I underlined key parts that deal specifically with this issue. This instruction that Apostle Paul gave by inspiration of The Holy Spirit is the best way for anyone to "famine proof" themselves for the hearing of the words of the LORD, and I will also add, "Occult proof" themselves and their family.

    2Ti 2:1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
    2Ti 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
    2Ti 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
    2Ti 2:4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.
    2Ti 2:5 And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully.
    2Ti 2:6 The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits.
    2Ti 2:7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.
    2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
    2Ti 2:9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.
    2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
    2Ti 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
    2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
    2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
    2Ti 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
    2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
    2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
    2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
    2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
    2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
    2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
    2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
    2Ti 2:22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
    2Ti 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
    2Ti 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
    2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
    2Ti 2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
    .....

    2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
    2Ti 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
    2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
    2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
     
  15. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Welcome to this forum, Q-T. I should have said that in my first post to you.

    The problem with your approach is it takes a lifetime, and the original poster has issues for them specifically that need to be addressed right now. A plan of action for the original poster is in my post #52.
     
  16. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    I've always thought the judgments coming concurrently was hopelessly contrived, it never made a lick of sense to me. I'm not sure what your ideas are with regards to an exposition but my position is that they are in chronological order.
     
  17. Q-T

    Q-T Soldier of Christ

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    Thank you for the kind welcome. :) I contend that it is impossible to have full understanding of Daniel and Revelation without first patiently reading through the entirety of The Holy Bible with fervent prayer and diligence, as all that is contained therein are the very details of which is needed for full comprehension and understanding. I have done so, and have read many Books multiple times over, again, and again, and testify that I have been richly blessed with knowledge from the LORD, to not only understand what is written, but also with wisdom and discernment to understand the times in which we live. The LORD has given instruction for the poster, and us, in His written words: (These are but a few important hightlights; included is correction from Proverbs):

    Deu 8:3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.

    There are adverse consequences when cousel is not sought at the mouth of the LORD: (Full understanding with comprehension of these conquences cannot be had without "hearing" the full context of the Book of Joshua, and the Books that preceeded from Genesis onward).

    Jos 9:14 And the men took of their victuals, and asked not counsel at the mouth of the LORD.

    Another adverse consequence: (To be read in full context)
    1Ki 13:21 And he cried unto the man of God that came from Judah, saying, Thus saith the LORD, Forasmuch as thou hast disobeyed the mouth of the LORD, and hast not kept the commandment which the LORD thy God commanded thee,

    Psa 119:108 Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD, and teach me thy judgments.

    Pro 1:1 The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel;
    Pro 1:2 To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding;
    Pro 1:3 To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity;
    Pro 1:4 To give subtilty to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion.
    Pro 1:5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:
    Pro 1:6 To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.
    Pro 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
    Pro 1:8 My son, hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother:
    Pro 1:9 For they shall be an ornament of grace unto thy head, and chains about thy neck.


    ......
    Pro 2:1 My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee;
    Pro 2:2 So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding;
    Pro 2:3 Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding;
    Pro 2:4 If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures;
    Pro 2:5 Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.
    Pro 2:6 For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.
    Pro 2:7 He layeth up sound wisdom for the righteous: he is a buckler to them that walk uprightly.
    Pro 2:8 He keepeth the paths of judgment, and preserveth the way of his saints.

    Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

    1Co 1:5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;

    2Co 8:7 Therefore, as ye abound in every thing, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see that ye abound in this grace also.

    2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
    2Ti 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
    2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
    2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
     
  18. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    And how long do you think that would take the average person?
     
  19. _Dave_

    _Dave_ New Member

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    That was the entire basis for my comment, so I agree.
     
  20. Q-T

    Q-T Soldier of Christ

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    Please allow for me to share an inspirational true story about a young man that was once lost that was raised up in the Occult with Gnostics that ever always wrested and perverted the words of God, that the young man was deceived by his entire childhood and young adult life. The young man read every book that was placed before him by the Gnostics that taught him "other gods", also being taught that Jesus wasn't God,hell didn't exist, and was kept busy ever learning, but never able to come to a full knowledge of the truth. He had Gnostified perversions of Bible, along with the hundreds of books put out to explain away The True and Living God of The Holy Bible. One day the young man had reached the end of his rope, and contiplated ending his life. But God the Father, being merciful, drew the young man to His son, Jesus for salvation, and put it into the young man's heart to read The Holy Bible, to seek the LORD for knowledge and understanding, to answer the young man's questions about who God really is, and is this life all that there is? As the young man read through the New Testament, he learned about what Jesus Christ did on the cross at Calvary. Something that he had been taught to be a lie all of his life by the Gnostics. The young man listen to every word that Jesus spoke, hanging on to every word, as his life hang in the balances. He also listened to Jesus' chosen Apostles, and after a period of time, the young man was on his knees asking Jesus for the miracles to open his eyes and ears, recognizing that he had been lied to all of his life, and that he was spiritually blind, deaf, and dumb, as he had previously blasphemed the Lord, and persecuted Christians. The young man went to the foot of the cross, with the faith of the size of the mustard seed, and asked Jesus Christ to save him. The young man was in tears at the moment of his conversion, and asked the Lord to show him what He had delivered the young man from, and to lead the young man into all truth. The young man, having full realization of the depths of deception that had blinded him all of his life, since birth, knew that he would only trust God and what is written in The Holy Bible, never again putting his faith and trust in man. The young man, being thirsty and hungry for the words of God, read through The Holy Bible, and learned that God saved and delivered him from the House of the Dead, where the dead resided, blinded by Satan, headed for hell. If you would ask that man that question, he would say to average person, "Take as much time as you need. Be patient, and don't be lazy. Don't take The Holy Bible for granted, and test EVERYTHING by what is written, not testing what is written by the words of men. Trust and believe in the LORD your God with your whole heart, leaning upon Him for teaching, guidance, wisdom, discernment, knowledge, and instruction, and remember to never lean upon your own understanding, and don't fall into the trap of trusting your own intellect, because the flesh is of the flesh, but the things of God are God's, and only God can bestow spiritual gifts, and true to the instruction in Proverbs, he will bless those that seek after Him."
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019 at 1:16 PM
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