Revelation Disproves Rapture

[Dale]

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Ok then explain how Jesus return is not known “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. The rapture is an event that happens in one day and hour, but the tribulation is a 7 year long event.

But Jesus states watch for the signs of His return.
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Dtaylor: “Ok then explain how Jesus return is not known “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. The rapture is an event that happens in one day and hour, but the tribulation is a 7 year long event.”

If you think that the time of the Second Coming will be known before it happens, that only shows that the Second Coming has been largely replaced with the myth of “rapture.” Jesus said that even the angels of heaven do not know the exact time of the Second Coming.

The scripture you quote refutes the notion of rapture. The whole idea of rapture is that a significant part of the earth’s population will mysteriously disappear and those who remain will have no idea what happened. They will think that the missing people were beamed up by aliens or something. The scripture you quote, Matthew 24:30, says the opposite.

“At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the
sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see
the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power
and great glory.
Matthew 24:30 NIV

Rapturists claim to separate the Second Coming into two parts, the Rapture, followed by the Second Coming, or a secret Coming and a public Coming. There is no secret Coming where Christ grabs His followers before the public Second Coming here. We are told flatly that all nations will see the Son of Man coming in the sky.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The resurrection/rapture is found in 1Thessalonians5:9-11. "11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do."

An extension of 1Thessalonians4:14-18. "18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

Yes, so 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11 is all one narrative. Where does Paul indicate anywhere in that passage that the rapture would occur years before Jesus returns and delivers His wrath upon His enemies?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I get the impression a lot of “sunshine & rainbows” Christians believe it. It’s repackaged amillennialism

They believe what exactly? You didn't indicate which post you were responding to. And how exactly is it "repackaged amillennialism"?

But good post Ivan. I can see it has a lot of good arguments. I’m just not sold

Verses that describe being saved or escaping from the tribulation are about persevering thru it

He believes in a pre-trib rapture. So, that is what you are saying is "repackaged amillennialism"? If so, you must not have any idea of what amillennialists believe.

 

[d taylor]

When do you believe the following, the timing of which is unknown, will occur? Before or after the supposed 7 year tribulation?

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

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I believe before because Paul refers to they (meaning unbelievers) Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. So unbelievers will not escape the 7 year tribulation, unlike believers because But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

 

[Douggg]

Yes, so 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11 is all one narrative. Where does Paul indicate anywhere in that passage that the rapture would occur years before Jesus returns and delivers His wrath upon His enemies?

You are incorrectly assuming that the beginning of God's wrath is the wrath of the Lamb at Jesus's return.

God wrath begins when the day of the Lord begins, when the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act described in 2Thessalonians2:4. The resurrection/rapture will be before then.

Jesus returns to execute his wrath, the wrath of the Lamb, on them who had persecuted and killed the great tribulation martyrs at the end of the great tribulation.

 

[d taylor]

When do you believe the following, the timing of which is unknown, will occur? Before or after the supposed 7 year tribulation?

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

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Here is a written paper on
As an aside, Dr. Mayhue suggested that there are similar expressions using the words day and Lord that do not carry that meaning. He said that the expressions the day of the Lord Jesus and the day of Christ always refer to the Judgment Seat of Christ, the Bema, and never to the Tribulation. At the link below

“The Day” Is the Judgment Seat of Christ – Grace Evangelical Society

 

[JulieB67]

The first part, Jesus leaves out of heaven

False

Acts 3:20 "And He shall send Jesus Christ, Which before was preached unto you:"

Acts 3:21 "Whom the heaven must receive unto the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began

 

[Spiritual Jew]

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Here is a written paper on
As an aside, Dr. Mayhue suggested that there are similar expressions using the words day and Lord that do not carry that meaning. He said that the expressions the day of the Lord Jesus and the day of Christ always refer to the Judgment Seat of Christ, the Bema, and never to the Tribulation. At the link below

“The Day” Is the Judgment Seat of Christ – Grace Evangelical Society

I have no interest in that link or what Dr. Mayhue has to say. I'm talking to you, so please answer my question yourself. Copy and paste from there if you want, but I'm not going to that link. I never do that while I'm in a forum like this. I'm here to talk to the people who are here and that's it.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You are incorrectly assuming that the beginning of God's wrath is the wrath of the Lamb at Jesus's return.

God wrath begins when the day of the Lord begins, when the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act described in 2Thessalonians2:4. The resurrection/rapture will be before then.

Jesus returns to execute his wrath, the wrath of the Lamb, on them who had persecuted and killed the great tribulation martyrs at the end of the great tribulation.

Do you not think that the wrath Paul referred to here...

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

refers back to the wrath he wrote about here..

1 Thessalonians 5:2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

To me, it's clear that Paul was saying in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 that God does not appoint us to suffer wrath at all, but he was particularly talking about the wrath that he had just written about before that in verses 2 and 3. And that wrath will come unexpectedly when Jesus comes as a thief in the night and it will be "sudden". Jesus will come unexpectedly and His wrath will come down on His enemies suddenly (quickly).

 

[Spiritual Jew]

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I believe before because Paul refers to they (meaning unbelievers) Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. So unbelievers will not escape the 7 year tribulation, unlike believers because But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

Do you know what the word "sudden" means? I'll show you...

sudden (adjective): occurring or done quickly and unexpectedly or without warning.

Why are you trying to turn "sudden destruction", which will happen quickly and unexpectedly, into a "7 year tribulation"?

 

[d taylor]

I have no interest in that link or what Dr. Mayhue has to say. I'm talking to you, so please answer my question yourself. Copy and paste from there if you want, but I'm not going to that link. I never do that while I'm in a forum like this. I'm here to talk to the people who are here and that's it.

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Well then good bye.

If i had notice your Amillennialist tag on your id, i would have never entertained that theology to being with.

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[Douggg]

Do you not think that the wrath Paul referred to here...

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

refers back to the wrath he wrote about here..

1 Thessalonians 5:2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

To me, it's clear that Paul was saying in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 that God does not appoint us to suffer wrath at all, but he was particularly talking about the wrath that he had just written about before that in verses 2 and 3. And that wrath will come unexpectedly when Jesus comes as a thief in the night and it will be "sudden". Jesus will come unexpectedly and His wrath will come down on His enemies suddenly (quickly).

The world will not be saying "peace and safety" during the great tribulation when Jesus returns at the end of it to carry out the wrath of the Lamb.

The world saying "peace and safety" will be during most of the first half of the 7 years, thinking it has entered the messianic age with the Antichrist as the thought-to-be messiah. That delusion will be shattered when the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act described in 2Thessalonians2:4.

Aren't you aware that the Jews (Judaism) are looking for their king of Israel messiah (someone other than Jesus - i.e. the another of John 5:43) ?

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

That "another" will be the Antichrist person.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

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Well then good bye.

If i had notice your Amillennialist tag on your id, i would have never entertained that theology to being with.

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LOL. I can understand you not wanting to try to defend turning "sudden destruction" into a 7 year tribulation. It can't be done.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The world will not be saying "peace and safety" during the great tribulation when Jesus returns at the end of it to carry out the wrath of the Lamb.

The world saying "peace and safety" will be during most of the first half of the 7 years, thinking it has entered the messianic age with the Antichrist as the thought-to-be messiah. That delusion will be shattered when the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act described in 2Thessalonians2:4.

Aren't you aware that the Jews (Judaism) are looking for their king of Israel messiah (someone other than Jesus - i.e. the another of John 5:43) ?

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

That "another" will be the Antichrist person.

Doug, was my question too hard to answer? Answer my question first. You always do this. It's very rude to not answer my question and then expect me to answer yours. So, I'll try again.

Do you not think that the wrath Paul referred to here...

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

...refers back to the wrath he wrote about here in the following passage?

1 Thessalonians 5:2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

To me, it's clear that Paul was saying in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 that God does not appoint us to suffer wrath at all, but he was particularly talking about the wrath that he had just written about before that in verses 2 and 3. And that wrath will come unexpectedly when Jesus comes as a thief in the night and it will be "sudden". Jesus will come unexpectedly and His wrath will come down on His enemies suddenly (quickly).

 

[Fisherking]

I find belief in a “rapture,” separate from the Second Coming, baffling. No verse in the Bible says anything about God removing His people from a world where political events are still taking place. Where would we expect to find evidence of a “rapture”? The Book of Revelation is the most Apocalyptic book in the Bible, so we would expect to find it there. While Revelation makes no mention of anyone being “raptured,” it does say that there are martyrs in heaven.

What I find is people who can't see the Rapture also know nothing about Eschatology at all. I can the whole book of Revelation in one post, because all the TIMELINES because I am nit blind to the facts. Those who can not see the Raptures timeline have no hope of understanding end time eschatology.

Why would those Raptured be in the Book of Revelation? Except as being shown in Heaven. We are shown in Heaven with Jesus in Rev. 4:4 and Rev. 5:9-10, and the Rapture is shown in Rev. 4:1 Jesus is sounding as a Trump THE LAST TRUMP is talking about the Feast of Trumps and how 100 Trumps/Shofars are blasted in 9 sets off 11 then after the 99 the LAST TRUMP end the Harvest Season (CHURCH AGE......get it? ITS NOT HARD AT ALL)

TBH, I find it a waste of tine sadly. You will never listen, you already have all the answers, and when you all get to Heaven you will be told you bought into Satan lies. We see darkly now, some more darkly than others.

 

[Douggg]

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

...refers back to the wrath he wrote about here in the following passage?

1 Thessalonians 5:2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

The word "wrath" does not appear in 1Thessalonians5:2-3.

To me, it's clear that Paul was saying in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 that God does not appoint us to suffer wrath at all, but he was particularly talking about the wrath that he had just written about before that in verses 2 and 3. And that wrath will come unexpectedly when Jesus comes as a thief in the night and it will be "sudden". Jesus will come unexpectedly and His wrath will come down on His enemies suddenly (quickly).

Jesus does not come down on His enemies suddenly in Revelation 19, nor in Matthew 24:30. In Revelation 19:19, the beast, and the kings of earth will have gathered their armies to make war on Jesus. Read Revelation 19:19. They know that Jesus is coming in order to do that.

They will know that Jesus is coming because in Matthew 24:30a the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven near the end of the great tribulation.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

[d taylor]

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“Peace And Safety” In Bible Prophecy

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The word "wrath" does not appear in 1Thessalonians5:2-3.

So? You think the "sudden destruction" from which those in spiritual darkness will not escape is caused by something other than the Lord's wrath? Peter wrote about the same event in 2 Peter 3:10-12. Do you think that is not a description of wrath?

Jesus does not come down on His enemies suddenly in Revelation 19, nor in Matthew 24:30.

How are you concluding that? Where does it say otherwise?

In Revelation 19:19, the beast, and the kings of earth will have gathered their armies to make war on Jesus. Read Revelation 19:19. They know that Jesus is coming in order to do that.

They will have gathered before that day He comes. It's not even talking about a literal gathering. It's all symbolic. They don't know He is coming. They are making war with His followers around the world and, in effect, making war with Him as well by doing so. But, no one knows the day or hour He is coming. You are contradicting scripture by acting as if they would know that. Once He comes unexpectedly they will then be suddenly destroyed. He will take vengeance on all unbelievers at that point (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10).

They will know that Jesus is coming because in Matthew 24:30a the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven near the end of the great tribulation.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


View attachment 365649

Matthew 24:27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

Again, where does this say that the destruction that will be caused by Jesus Himself won't occur suddenly at that point? There is no indication of how long people will see the sign of the Son of man. According to Matthew 24:27, things will happen quickly when He comes. That is indicated in 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 as well.

 

[d taylor]

What I find is people who can't see the Rapture also know nothing about Eschatology at all. I can the whole book of Revelation in one post, because all the TIMELINES because I am nit blind to the facts. Those who can not see the Raptures timeline have no hope of understanding end time eschatology.

Why would those Raptured be in the Book of Revelation? Except as being shown in Heaven. We are shown in Heaven with Jesus in Rev. 4:4 and Rev. 5:9-10, and the Rapture is shown in Rev. 4:1 Jesus is sounding as a Trump THE LAST TRUMP is talking about the Feast of Trumps and how 100 Trumps/Shofars are blasted in 9 sets off 11 then after the 99 the LAST TRUMP end the Harvest Season (CHURCH AGE......get it? ITS NOT HARD AT ALL)

TBH, I find it a waste of tine sadly. You will never listen, you already have all the answers, and when you all get to Heaven you will be told you bought into Satan lies. We see darkly now, some more darkly than others.

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Believers are not raptured to heaven, but they meet Jesus in the clouds where they will stay for the 7 years of the tribulation.

 

[Douggg]

How are you concluding that? Where does it say otherwise?

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.


Revelation 16:
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

The kings of the earth will gather their armies at Armageddon in Israel to prepare to make war on Jesus and His army. For 45 days, they will prepare to make war on Jesus and His army.