Revelation chronological or not?

[Postvieww]

Mattew24 and Revelation 6 comparison


Matt.24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.



Rev.6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;


13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.


14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.


15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;


16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:



When Matt 24:29 “ Immediately after the tribulation”

When Rev. 6:12 “when he had opened the sixth seal”


What Matt24:29 “shall the sun be darkened”

What Rev. 6:12 “the sun became black as sackcloth”


What Matt. 24:29 “the moon shall not give her light”

What Rev. 6:12 “the moon became as blood”


What Matt.24:13 “the stars shall fall from heaven”

What Rev. 6:13 “stars of heaven fell unto the earth”


What Matt.24:29 “the powers of the heavens shall be shaken”

What Rev. 6:14 “the heaven departed as a scroll”


What Matt.24:30 “then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn”

What Rev 6:15 “And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains”


What Matt.24:30 “they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory”

What Rev, 6:16 “hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb”


Could these refer to the same event? I believe they do.

 

[Postvieww]

My comment


The stars in Revelation 6:13 are not celestial stars [Revelation 12:9]

.... and neither is this one [Revelation 8:10; 9:1]

The stars in Matthew 24:9 are celestial stars, but they do not fall to the earth

There are several notable differences between Revelation 6:12-17 and Matthew 24:29, and this is one of them

Revelation 6:12-17 is the beginning of the tribulation, and Matthew 24:9 is the ending

....and there will be 2550 days between

Here is just one question I think it is reasonable. How did you determine "The stars in Matthew 24:9 are celestial stars, but they do not fall to the earth". If they fall they must fall somewhere.

 

[Postvieww]

Revelation 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Revelation 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.


This is the same event.

 

[Postvieww]

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:


10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?


11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


This event is happening right now.

 

[Straightshot]

Not yet .... but we can see a movement toward the event that the vision tells

 

[BABerean2]

Not yet .... but we can see a movement toward the event that the vision tells

Stephen, Paul, and all of the other Apostles, along with thousands upon thousands of our Brothers and Sisters down through the ages, are there now.

Many or all of us may join them, before the Second Coming.


And just as all of them said during their time, We join with them in saying...

Come, Lord Jesus.

.

 

[n2thelight]

The answer is in the verse below

Revelation 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,"

This verse is the key to understanding the book of Revelation. Without a clear and full understanding of it, the entire book just will not make sense. The sequence of order will seem strange.

"I"; this is John speaking and telling us where he was. "I was in the Spirit", not in his flesh body; "on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet". John is taken forward in time, "in the Spirit", to the day of the Lord. The "Day of the Lord" is not referring to Sunday or Saturday. This is the same "Day of the Lord" Paul speaks about in I Thessalonians 5:2, as "coming as a thief in the night". Later in II Thessalonians 2:2-3 Paul makes it clear that at the "Day of the Lord" Christ's return will not happen until "after there will be a great falling away first; and "that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition". Satan must be revealed in his role as the Antichrist first, before that seventh trumpet can sound, the last trumpet.

The time, or day, John was taken to was beyond our time frame, however we are living in the generation that will see it come to pass, and live through what John saw and lived, while in the Spirit. There is only one day that is called "The Day of the Lord" in all the Scriptures.

Isaiah 2:12 "For the day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low."

This is the day that our Lord returns. This is the day "God's cup of wrath" is poured out upon His enemies. So John was taken in the Spirit to the last day of this earth age, before the start of the age of the Millennium. If you are still in your flesh body, that day hasn't happened yet, and it is still future to us.

Every verse that you read in Revelation from this verse to the end of chapter twenty two, will be viewed from the Lord's day, either looking backwards or forwards a short period of time. If you don't come to that point of time in your understanding with John, the rest of what he is saying just will not make sense.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[BABerean2]

Very interesting as to being baptized with also fire. I looked at that many years
ago and saw the tongues of fire at the time of Pentecost, so I thought that was it.
You have me thinking now that I should take a closer look at this. Thanks.

cloven tongues like as of fire/sat upon each of them

"And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak..." Acts 2:3

Acts 1:5
"...but ye shall be filled with the Holy Ghost not many days hence."

It seems that the church has only been baptized with the Holy Ghost and has
yet to baptized with fire. How would you say that our works will be tried by fire fits in, or not with this? People can still be saved, but as yet by fire, or it is only the wicked people get the fire? How would that baptize them? It talks about
gathering the wheat and burning up the chaff in Matthew 3:12. This verse
and Luke 3:17 refer to unquenchable fire. Is there a difference?

I do not claim to understand it all. However, baptism in the New Testament was through immersion.
Can you imagine being immersed in fire and not being harmed?

After we are changed as described in 1st Corinthians chapter 15, we may be in a body like His, which cannot be harmed by fire.

Many years ago, I did a lesson on the parallels between Christ and Superman for the youth ministry at my school.
I have seen movies where Superman goes through the fire unharmed, and he is just a cartoon character.
We belong to the real Superman.

There are numerous verses speaking of fire on the Day of the Lord.
Somehow the three Hebrew men made it through the fiery furnace, because of the fourth man who was in the fire with them.
It seems reasonable to assume this could be an illusion to a New Testament event, because these three faithful Hebrew men would not bow down to the world system of their day.

He is coming back for us in Flaming Fire. If we are changed and gathered in the clouds at the beginning of His Second Coming, we will not be subject to the same corruption as those made of flesh.

I look forward to getting my New Body.

.

 

[vinsight4u]

.?

 

[Interplanner]

It is apocalyptic literature. The purpose of apocalyptic was to provide courage and support from "behind the scenes" for those in a traumatic situation. It is a pastoral montage.

That is why, AS SOME OF YOU HERE MAY HAVE NOTICED, there is no agreement on chronology; it is not a source for that. One look at this forum's summary data, and you should know that!

 

[gospelfer]

The seal, trumpet, and plagues are sequential. The other stuff is background containing the larger picture. There is chronology there, but we haven't figured out how to put it together yet. God is not the author of nonsense. The reason we have not yet been able to put it together is because people persist in holding on to a priori assumptions which the account makes impossible. The interpreter needs to relentlessly throw out the impossible and ridiculous; what will be left in the end is the only tenable solution.

 

[BABerean2]

The seal, trumpet, and plagues are sequential. The other stuff is background containing the larger picture. There is chronology there, but we haven't figured out how to put it together yet. God is not the author of nonsense. The reason we have not yet been able to put it together is because people persist in holding on to a priori assumptions which the account makes impossible. The interpreter needs to relentlessly throw out the impossible and ridiculous; what will be left in the end is the only tenable solution.

When you say sequential, does that mean Revelation chapter 6 can be a preview of Armageddon or are you ruling out this possibility?



Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; The reference to the sun and moon clearly comes from the Day of the Lord in the Book of Joel, found in the verse below.

Joe_2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Throughout the Old Testament we find references to the Day of the Lord. A day of wrath, of fire, a day of the trumpet.
The Day of the Lord is found in the New Testament at the famous rapture passage in 1st Thess. chapters 4 and 5 and also in 2nd Peter chapter 3.
Zechariah 14:7 says it is 1 day. (It uses the Hebrew word for the numeral 1.)


Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.



Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.



Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

 

[gospelfer]

Berean, I'm not totally sure I understand your question -- if not you can tell me.

Seal 6 is the first outwardly unmistakable sign of the end, and it is preceded by Seal 5's "cry for justice". Seal 5 is terrifying because it has no actual outward effect; it sets the stage for the beginning of real disasters.

I could explain the horsemen, but the explanation is far from immediately obvious and the necessary background is far-ranging and actually belongs to 3 other prophetic themes.

The categorizing titles of the disasters are important because they are suggestive: Seals implies the opening of possibility, a prelude. Trumpets suggest a call to immediate action, the announcement that the time has finally come. Plagues is just horror: the finishing fatal blows destroying the old order and bringing the unbelieving world to heel (if not actual belief).

So, this is where I see sequence. Actual chronology is to be found in chapters such as 11-13, 17-18. The chronology actually stands outside the sequence and spans a much greater duration than people are accustomed to consider.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[gospelfer]

I don't think anybody suggested the 6th seal to be Armageddon -- certainly not I. What I was suggesting was that the actuality of the 6th seal is outwardly unmistakable, unlike the first 5 seals.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[Interplanner]

Way too much time in a source that will not give you what you need or even what you should have. You are trying to use it to figure out everything about the future and it will not, because you don't need to have it, Acts 1.