Revelation chronological or not?

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[miamited]

Is the book of Revelation written in chronological order from start to finish or not? If not how does it flow? What are your reasons? I know there are a lot of opinions on this. I would like to hear yours.

Hi postvieww,

It is my understanding that the entire account of the Revelation is not in chronological order. It seems to be written in a few pieces. By that I mean that John doesn't seem to portray the entire set of writing as a single vision that he had at one time. However, most of it is future to John's life. For example, chapter 12 discusses the birth of Jesus which had already happened.

She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

We know this is Jesus because it defines the child as a 'male' child who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. This is exactly how the prophets wrote of Messiah to come. It also says that the child was snatched up to God and to His throne. We know that Jesus ascended to heaven and we are told that he now sits at the right hand of his Father's throne. I'm sure there will be some not in agreement, but it seems fairly plain to me.

The release of the horsemen also seems to me to be an event that had already happened before John's writing or was happening at the time of his writing. The account of his vision of Jesus in heaven in chapter 4 also seems to be an event that had already happened or was, at the moment of the vision, happening. Personally, I'm of a mind that those things accounted in chapters 4 and most of chapter 6 have been completed in our day. We now seem to be standing in the time between the sixth and seventh seal

Now, to answer your question as to 'why' I believe as I do. How do I support any of this using the framework of the Scriptures? There will, of course, be others who believe differently and one has to take all sound arguments and lay them before the Lord and ask Him for wisdom. God delights in His children knowing the truth and as James writes to us, He desires to give us wisdom if we will but ask.

My understanding is that the rider on the white horse is the gospel. It is the truth of God that has been going out to all the nations since Paul and first apostles began teaching it from the day of Pentecost. The 'gospel', the good news of God's salvation offered to mankind through His Son, Jesus, is going out now and has been since the day of Pentecost to conquer the hearts of men. The fiery red horse and it's rider seem to also obviously be riding to and fro upon the earth today, and has been for quite some time also. He is presently working to take peace from the earth and men are certainly slaying each other by the millions. The third horse and it's rider also seem to be loose upon the earth. This horseman has power over the financial doings of men. Similarly, the third horse and it's rider, dragging death and Hades in it's wake have been running to and fro upon the earth for a very long time also.

This brings us to the fifth seal. This seal tells us that there are saints already beneath the altar, which would be those whom Jesus carried in his train up to heaven with him. Those saints who had already been slain for the testimony of God before Jesus threw open the gates of God's salvation by his sacrifice of death. These are likely to include those who came up out of their graves in Israel after Jesus' crucifixion. Before Jesus paid the price for sin, no one had ever gone up into heaven.

Now, it is possible that the sixth seal has been opened. The first half of the events seen at the opening of the sixth seal very closely mirror the day of Jesus' crucifixion and shortly thereafter. Here again, if we look at chapter 12, we find that there was a great war in heaven and it is my understanding that that battle was won when Jesus overcame death. When God raised Jesus from the dead, God won the war. Then satan and his angels were cast down to the earth, which would be in line with the 'stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind'. However, it doesn't seem that all of the events of the sixth seal have yet been completed. The seventh seal has most definitely not been opened yet.

This understanding assumes that when Jesus was handed the scroll, he didn't just rip, rip, rip, rip all the seals off in rapid succession, but rather pulled off one and some things happened on the earth. In due course, pulled off the second and some things happened upon the earth. In time pulled off the third and some things happened upon the earth, etc. etc. Allowing time between the removal of each seal for events upon the earth to occur.

Using this understanding, we would now be somewhere between the removal of the sixth seal and the removal of the seventh. The seventh seal ushers in the next part of God's plan, which is His judgment upon the earth. The events of the seven trumpets seem to still be in the future. We have no accounting for any of the events heralded by the seven angels with the seven trumpets having occurred yet.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Postvieww]

Hi postvieww,

It is my understanding that the entire account of the Revelation is not in chronological order. It seems to be written in a few pieces. By that I mean that John doesn't seem to portray the entire set of writing as a single vision that he had at one time. However, most of it is future to John's life. For example, chapter 12 discusses the birth of Jesus which had already happened.

She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

We know this is Jesus because it defines the child as a 'male' child who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. This is exactly how the prophets wrote of Messiah to come. It also says that the child was snatched up to God and to His throne. We know that Jesus ascended to heaven and we are told that he now sits at the right hand of his Father's throne. I'm sure there will be some not in agreement, but it seems fairly plain to me.

The release of the horsemen also seems to me to be an event that had already happened before John's writing or was happening at the time of his writing. The account of his vision of Jesus in heaven in chapter 4 also seems to be an event that had already happened or was, at the moment of the vision, happening. Personally, I'm of a mind that those things accounted in chapters 4 and most of chapter 6 have been completed in our day. We now seem to be standing in the time between the sixth and seventh seal

Now, to answer your question as to 'why' I believe as I do. How do I support any of this using the framework of the Scriptures? There will, of course, be others who believe differently and one has to take all sound arguments and lay them before the Lord and ask Him for wisdom. God delights in His children knowing the truth and as James writes to us, He desires to give us wisdom if we will but ask.

My understanding is that the rider on the white horse is the gospel. It is the truth of God that has been going out to all the nations since Paul and first apostles began teaching it from the day of Pentecost. The 'gospel', the good news of God's salvation offered to mankind through His Son, Jesus, is going out now and has been since the day of Pentecost to conquer the hearts of men. The fiery red horse and it's rider seem to also obviously be riding to and fro upon the earth today, and has been for quite some time also. He is presently working to take peace from the earth and men are certainly slaying each other by the millions. The third horse and it's rider also seem to be loose upon the earth. This horseman has power over the financial doings of men. Similarly, the third horse and it's rider, dragging death and Hades in it's wake have been running to and fro upon the earth for a very long time also.

This brings us to the fifth seal. This seal tells us that there are saints already beneath the altar, which would be those whom Jesus carried in his train up to heaven with him. Those saints who had already been slain for the testimony of God before Jesus threw open the gates of God's salvation by his sacrifice of death. These are likely to include those who came up out of their graves in Israel after Jesus' crucifixion. Before Jesus paid the price for sin, no one had ever gone up into heaven.

Now, it is possible that the sixth seal has been opened. The first half of the events seen at the opening of the sixth seal very closely mirror the day of Jesus' crucifixion and shortly thereafter. Here again, if we look at chapter 12, we find that there was a great war in heaven and it is my understanding that that battle was won when Jesus overcame death. When God raised Jesus from the dead, God won the war. Then satan and his angels were cast down to the earth, which would be in line with the 'stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind'. However, it doesn't seem that all of the events of the sixth seal have yet been completed. The seventh seal has most definitely not been opened yet.

This understanding assumes that when Jesus was handed the scroll, he didn't just rip, rip, rip, rip all the seals off in rapid succession, but rather pulled off one and some things happened on the earth. In due course, pulled off the second and some things happened upon the earth. In time pulled off the third and some things happened upon the earth, etc. etc. Allowing time between the removal of each seal for events upon the earth to occur.

Using this understanding, we would now be somewhere between the removal of the sixth seal and the removal of the seventh. The seventh seal ushers in the next part of God's plan, which is His judgment upon the earth. The events of the seven trumpets seem to still be in the future. We have no accounting for any of the events heralded by the seven angels with the seven trumpets having occurred yet.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

I do appreaciate your response and your humble attitude. You gave me a new perspective on one issue I've been thinking on for a while. I agree with many of your points others I do not, but thats ok. Thats how we learn. Thanks again for your ideas. God Bless

 

[Riberra]

Anyone that would write this clearly has little understanding of the Author's intent of these chapters:

Chapters 4 & 5 fit together to form the CONTEXT and show the TIMING of the first seals. They are NOT out of sequence, because they are a parenthesis: a vision of the past considering the time John saw the vision. The church was perhaps 60 years old, but this was a vision looking back to when Jesus ascended into heaven. We should recognize this as a parenthesis.

Chapter 6 follows chapter 5 with the first 5 seals being broken as soon as Jesus ascended.

Revelation switches from past to the future (even for the first readers) between the 5th and 6th seal, because we are still waiting for the 6th seal.
The 6th seal starts the Day of the Lord and His wrath.

So, there will be a 2,000 ++years gaps between the opening of the 5th seal and the 6th seal.

This is in direct relation to what Jesus said to
the souls of them that were slain for the word of God -the 5th seal martyrs-....that they should wait until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled
Revelation 6
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled

Chapter 7 is an intermission show John can rearrange the setting: two events absolutely must take place before the 7th seal opens the 70th week: the church must be safely in heaven

Based on Rev 6:9-11 you can replace "the church must be safely in heaven" by:the number of of those who will be slain for the Word of God -must- have reached its fulfillment Rev (6:9-11)...after 2,000 ++ of Christians persecution ...

and the 144,000 must be sealed.

After the sealing of the 144,000 mentioned in Rev 7:3-8
John saw a great multitude clothed in white robes , (Rev7:9)which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne,

The Bible identify the great multitude of those which are arrayed in white robes as being them who came out of -great tribulation- Rev 7:13-14
Based on the Scriptures that -great tribulation- is referring to the millions Christians who were slain during the 2,000 years++ of the Christians persecution and slaughtering which continue to this day in many Muslim countries...

Chapters 8 & 9 are the beginning of judgment: the trumpets.

Chapter 10 begins the midpoint intermission: to cover all the events that are close to the midpoint. This intermission goes from chapter 10 to chapter 15, but this intermission is not as clear cut as the first, between the 6th and 7th seal.

Chapter 11 begins with the man of sin entering Jerusalem with his Gentile armies - probably just 3 1/2 days before the exact midpoint of the week.

The two witnesses show up when they do because the man of sin showed up - 3 1/2 days before the midpoint abomination. The rest of their story is written as a parenthesis, with no bearing on chronology. It is a side journey down the last half of the week for the two witnesses. The parenthesis is 11:4 through 11:13. The two witnesses testify only 3 1/2 days before the man of sin will enter the temple and declare he is God: and so stop the daily sacrifices.

Chapter 12 is all about God introducing John to the Dragon, and in particular what the dragon will do in the second half of the week. God must cover the dragon first, because the dragon will be behind everything the Beast does.
However, as God was introducing John to what the dragon would be doing in the future, He chose to show John how the dragon attempted to kill Him as a child - so the first five verses are written as a parenthesis.

Chapter 13 is God introducing John to the Beast and False Prophet.

As you can easily see, all these things are written in the exact order they will take place, except for the parentheses. Even the parenthesis make perfect sense in the places they are written. God, using John as the writer, takes us from the start of the church age to the time Jesus turns everything over to the Father - all in proper chronological order. Therefore, any attempt to rearrange will just scramble and make nonsense of what God has given us as the proper order of events.

As you can see i don't have to rearrange anything to demonstrate that the great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues,-who- stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;mentioned in Revelation 7:9 is not the pre-trib raptured Church as you like to believe...

 

[iamlamad]

So, there will be a 2,000 ++years gaps between the opening of the 5th seal and the 6th seal.

This is in direct relation to what Jesus said to
the souls of them that were slain for the word of God -the 5th seal martyrs-....that they should wait until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled
Revelation 6
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled


Based on Rev 6:9-11 you can replace "the church must be safely in heaven" by:the number of of those who will be slain for the Word of God -must- have reached its fulfillment Rev (6:9-11)...after 2,000 ++ of Christians persecution ...

After the sealing of the 144,000 mentioned in Rev 7:3-8
John saw a great multitude clothed in white robes , (Rev7:9)which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne,

The Bible identify the great multitude of those which are arrayed in white robes as being them who came out of -great tribulation- Rev 7:13-14
Based on the Scriptures that -great tribulation- is referring to the millions Christians who were slain during the 2,000 years++ of the Christians persecution and slaughtering which continue to this day in many Muslim countries...


As you can see i don't have to rearrange anything to demonstrate that the great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues,-who- stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;mentioned in Revelation 7:9 is not the pre-trib raptured Church as you like to believe...

Anyone can have a theory. I think mine is right; you think yours is right.

For my theory, there is NOT ONE HINT that these people were killed. When people WERE killed, in other passages John told us they were killed, as in those beheaded in chapter 15 and those under the altar. Your theory is imagination - you imagine that these have been martyred, when John said nothing about it. My theory does not use imagination. Why not just believe John? He does not mention death, so why should you? The raptured church fits. Your theory does not.

You have said yourself that the Day of the Lord and the rapture are two events that happen together. John shows us the Day of the Lord beginning RIGHT BEFORE this group is seen in heaven. Therefore it fits scripture perfectly that these are raptured saints.

 

[Riberra]

Anyone can have a theory. I think mine is right; you think yours is right.

For my theory, there is NOT ONE HINT that these people were killed. When people WERE killed, in other passages John told us they were killed, as in those beheaded in chapter 15 and those under the altar.

Here the hint in Rev 6:11 -And white robes were given unto every one of them -the 5th seal Martyrs that were slain for the word of God...-

Revelation 6

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them;
and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Thus it is logical to think that their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were

will also receive white robes like their
brethren who were slain for the word of God.

Exactly as it is described in
Revelation 7:9
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
...
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation,

Thus we can conclude with 100 % accuracy that the great multitude wearing white robes that no man could number described in Revelation 7:9 are -their brethren, that should be killed as they were...-( Rev 6:11)

-These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.-

>they came out of great tribulation is a reference to 2,000++ years of Christians persecution and slaughtering of Christians who continue to this Day in many Muslim countries .--

 

[Rev20]

I get your point for chapter 12 please explain for chapter 5?

"And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne." -- Rev 5:3-7​

The Root of David is the Lord:

"I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star." -- Rev 22:16​

 

[iamlamad]

New Jerusalem is the Church, and has existed since at least the day of Pentecost:

"And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." -- Acts 2:46-47​

This is the church, which Paul explained in the present tense, not future:

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel." -- Heb 12:22-24​

Aha! If New Jerusalem is the church and not the city, then Jesus DOES marry the church, not the city.

By the way, Paul also wrote that we are raised to sit in high places right beside Jesus.

 

[iamlamad]

Here the hint in Rev 6:11 -And white robes were given unto every one of them -the 5th seal Martyrs that were slain for the word of God...-

Revelation 6

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them;
and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Thus it is logical to think that their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were

will also receive white robes like their
brethren who were slain for the word of God.

Exactly as it is described in
Revelation 7:9
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
...
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation,

Thus we can conclude with 100 % accuracy that the great multitude wearing white robes that no man could number described in Revelation 7:9 are -their brethren, that should be killed as they were...-( Rev 6:11)

-These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.-

>they came out of great tribulation is a reference to 2,000++ years of Christians persecution and slaughtering of Christians who continue to this Day in many Muslim countries .--

White robes are for ALL believers who make it to heaven, whether or not they died to get there.

Rev 3:5
He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

3:18
I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.

4:4
Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads


19:14
And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.

100% accuracy? I guess you can also judge a book my its cover! Give me a break!

 

[interpreter]

The Revelation is in chrological order. It began undolding in 312 AD when the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds, and Jesus came into power through St. Constantine who rode a white horse and conquered with a bow. We are now experiencing the 7 last plagues.

 

[Riberra]

White robes are for ALL believers who make it to heaven, whether or not they died to get there.

Can you tells us the name of those humans who have make it to heaven without dying ?Do the scripture say that they have white robes?

Rev 3:5
He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

He who overcomes mean someone not taking the mark and have not worshiping the beast (Antichrist) or his image during the Antichrist reign.

3:18
I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.

This refer to the same as Rev 3:5 Jesus Christ believers will have to go trough the tribulation and resist the Antichrist thus the reference to the gold refined in the fire... He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments

4:4
Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads

There is 100% probability that the 24 elders are the Old Testament patriarchs... which as you know it have all pass away (dead)

19:14
And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.

The armies in Heaven are described as the Saints (all dead) and resurrected for the marriage of the Lamb at Jesus Second Coming at the End of the Tribulation...

Revelation 19
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

100% accuracy? I guess you can also judge a book my its cover! Give me a break!

Do you notice that the only reference to white robes given to the Saints and to those who overcome that you were able to find come from the Book of Revelation.

 

[Rev20]

Aha! If New Jerusalem is the church and not the city, then Jesus DOES marry the church, not the city.

New Jerusalem is both the City of the Living God, and the Church. They are one and the same.

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[vinsight4u]

.?

 

[Straightshot]

Response to the OP

briefly .....

Here is a format for you:

Revelation is a series of separate visions with unique features

Chapters 1-3 define the Lord's church, and this dispensation of His grace is still running as we speak

Then John's spirit is taken to heaven and into the future to be shown the things "hereafter"

The heavenly setting is given in chapter 5

Chapter 6 contains portents of the prevalent conditions that will exist upon the earth during the coming hour [time] of the Lord's unprecedented trial and judgment upon an unbelieving world

These portents are not the actual events, but the conditions that will exist upon the earth through out the days of the tribulation

Chapter 7 describes the initial component of Israel on the earth in the tribulation, and the Lord's true ecclesia already in heaven

And the tribulation events begin in chapter 8 going forward through chapter 20

The narrative of Revelation does move forward, however there are repeats of certain subjects giving more details [look for these carefully] .... some do disrupt the chronological order of Revelation

Here are two examples:

[Revelation 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 12:12; 17:14; 19:1-9; 20:4 [those on thrones]]

[Revelation 9:11; 11:2; 13:1-4; 17:8-18]

And there are a few historical insets for the purpose of giving overview on certain subjects like in [Revelation 12:1-5; 17:8-18]

The tribulation period will last for 2550 days and is consummated in Chapter 19 [Daniel 9; 12; give the time lapse of 1260 days + 1260 days + 30 days]

Chapter 20 contains the Lord coming millennial kingdom upon the earth, another human rebellion at the end of the same, the Lord's final judgment of unbelieving humanity, and His next unending eternal kingdom including a reconditioned earth and universe

 

[BABerean2]

The day of the Lord does begin in the 6th seal.
But-----
there is not a pre-trib rapture then, as it has the signs that come
after the tribulation.

sun darkened
stars fall
heaven shaken

There is something interesting about the word "stars" in this verse.
We know the sun is a medium sized star, with a diameter about 109x wider than the earth.
We can imagine what a literal star would do to the planet and we know from 2nd Peter 3:10, at some point the earth will be burned up.
John the Baptist said Christ would baptize us with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

The first one, is already in us. Will the second one occur at His Second Coming? Will we be as the Hebrew men in the furnace with the 4th One with us, when He returns.

Paul said flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. This may be why. No flesh could withstand it.

Luke_3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:


1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.



Also, in 2nd Thess. chapter 1, Christ comes back with His angels in flaming fire.

However, the same Greek word used for "star" in this verse is also used in Revelation chapter 12 to refer to the wicked angels.

I just wondered if the same Greek word refers to angels in Revelation chapter 6?
... Just thinking out loud here...



Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.




Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.


G792


ἀστήρ

astēr

as-tare'

Probably from the base of G4766; a star (as strown over the sky), literally or figuratively: - star.

Strangely, the word could fit with both fire and the angels, since both seem to coincide at His Second Coming.

 

[Straightshot]

My comment


The stars in Revelation 6:13 are not celestial stars [Revelation 12:9]

.... and neither is this one [Revelation 8:10; 9:1]

The stars in Matthew 24:9 are celestial stars, but they do not fall to the earth

There are several notable differences between Revelation 6:12-17 and Matthew 24:29, and this is one of them

Revelation 6:12-17 is the beginning of the tribulation, and Matthew 24:9 is the ending

....and there will be 2550 days between

 

[iamlamad]

Response to the OP

briefly .....

Here is a format for you:

Revelation is a series of separate visions with unique features

Chapters 1-3 define the Lord's church, and this dispensation of His grace is still running as we speak

Then John's spirit is taken to heaven and into the future to be shown the things "hereafter"

The heavenly setting is given in chapter 5

Chapter 6 contains portents of the prevalent conditions that will exist upon the earth during the coming hour [time] of the Lord's unprecedented trial and judgment upon an unbelieving world

These portents are not the actual events, but the conditions that will exist upon the earth through out the days of the tribulation

Chapter 7 describes the initial component of Israel on the earth in the tribulation, and the Lord's true ecclesia already in heaven

And the tribulation events begin in chapter 8 going forward through chapter 20

The narrative of Revelation does move forward, however there are repeats of certain subjects giving more details [look for these carefully] .... some do disrupt the chronological order of Revelation

And there are a few historical insets for the purpose of giving overview on certain subjects

The tribulation period will last for 2550 days and is consummated in Chapter 19

Chapter 20 contains the Lord coming millennial kingdom upon the earth, another human rebellion at the end of the same, the Lord's final judgment of unbelieving humanity, and His next unending eternal kingdom including a reconditioned earth and universe

I am not even sure of your first point: "a series of separate visions." Perhaps it was one long vision with different "acts" as in a play. It is all one play.

"Then John's spirit is taken to heaven and into the future to be shown the things "hereafter""

Again I must disagree: there is no hint that John was taken "into the future." In fact, the first thing John saw was a vision of His past: looking into the throne room while Jesus was still on the earth: a fact proven by three points in the text:
1. Jesus not seen at the right hand of the father
2. "no man found" in the first search John watched end in failure.
3. Holy Spirit in the throne room in chapter 4, but sent down in chapter 5 when Jesus ascended into the throne room.

"These portents are not the actual events, but the conditions that will exist upon the earth through out the days of the tribulation"

I am puzzled at this sentence. A great earthquake is certainly an event. It will be an event that begins the Day of the Lord. John does not get to the days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of until chapter 15. Many people do not realize this.

And the tribulation events begin in chapter 8 going forward through chapter 20

I can agree with this, only I would say the 70th week begins in chapter 8 and goes through chapter 16.
"The tribulation," if we follow Jesus' words exactly would refer to the last half of the week. "Immediately after the tribulation of those days..." However, this is a small point, and much of the church calls the 70th week "the tribulation."

"The narrative of Revelation does move forward, however there are repeats of certain subjects giving more details [look for these carefully] .... some do disrupt the chronological order of Revelation"

I would love to see which scriptures lead you to this belief.

 

[Straightshot]

Well that is what you think .... but I do not

If you want a response I will answer any reasonable questions as long as you give them one at a time

This I will require so that there is no confusion generated for the other posters who look on

 

[BABerean2]

My comment


The stars in Revelation 6:13 are not celestial stars [Revelation 12:9]

.... and neither is this one [Revelation 8:10; 9:1]

The stars in Matthew 24:9 are celestial stars, but they do not fall to the earth

There are several notable differences between Revelation 6:12-17 and Matthew 24:29, and this is one of them

Revelation 6:12-17 is the beginning of the tribulation, and Matthew 24:9 is the ending

....and there will be 2550 days between

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

It is the same event.