Revelation About the Book of James

DM25 · May 27, 2019

I'm ignoring all posts who teach works-based salvation from now on. Including the ones on top who I missed who try saying we are not justified by faith alone before God but by works as well by our faith which is another way of saying works salvation, heresy. I'm only entertaining posts who understand the real gospel and know we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone. I would agree with you works-based salvationists, but then we would both be wrong. Do not pervert the gospel of Jesus Christ. Scripture is clear as day we are not saved by any works, regardless of if you think it comes from faith or not. Works-based salvation is heresy and you guys are deceived.

Dave L · May 27, 2019

DM25 said:
The book of James confused me a lot. Everywhere in scripture it says we are saved by faith alone, not works, so I got confused about James 2. I saw some preachers twisting scripture in a way that still did not make sense... Saying things like being saved from man and stuff like that.

So I prayed to God for him to explain to me, and I figured it out! The book of James is talking to the 12 tribes of Israel (James 1:1). The 12 tribes of Israels are also mentioned in the book of Revelation. James is actually a prophetic book, talking to the Jews in the last days during tribulation. This is shown in James 5:3, literally saying that this is for them during the "last days". And we know during the time of Jacob's trouble, the Jews are not saved by faith alone, but by faith and works. This includes enduring until the end, avoiding the mark, and keeping the commandments of God (Revelation 14:12). So this book is not for the church, but for the 12 tribes of Israel, the Jews during the time of Jacob's trouble and tribulation in the last days. It was very eye opening when I realized this and it made a lot of sense.

That's why its important to rightly divide and pay attention who the message is for and really read what it is saying, rather than make a complete theology from one verse in the bible.

James says; “You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” (James 2:24)

Paul says; “For we consider that a person is declared righteous by faith apart from the works of the law.” (Romans 3:28)

James speaks of genuine faith that works by love. Paul speaks of genuine Faith (that works by love) apart from the Ten Commandments which cannot save.

mark kennedy · May 27, 2019

DM25 said:
The book of James confused me a lot. Everywhere in scripture it says we are saved by faith alone, not works, so I got confused about James 2. I saw some preachers twisting scripture in a way that still did not make sense... Saying things like being saved from man and stuff like that.

So I prayed to God for him to explain to me, and I figured it out! The book of James is talking to the 12 tribes of Israel (James 1:1). The 12 tribes of Israels are also mentioned in the book of Revelation. James is actually a prophetic book, talking to the Jews in the last days during tribulation. This is shown in James 5:3, literally saying that this is for them during the "last days". And we know during the time of Jacob's trouble, the Jews are not saved by faith alone, but by faith and works. This includes enduring until the end, avoiding the mark, and keeping the commandments of God (Revelation 14:12). So this book is not for the church, but for the 12 tribes of Israel, the Jews during the time of Jacob's trouble and tribulation in the last days. It was very eye opening when I realized this and it made a lot of sense.

That's why its important to rightly divide and pay attention who the message is for and really read what it is saying, rather than make a complete theology from one verse in the bible.

James is speaking to Jewish Christians, that's why he addresses the book in that way. None of the Apostles denied justification by faith and James was right there when the Jerusalem Council agreed to justification by grace through faith apart from the Mosaic Law. Whats more James isn't writing a doctrinal statement the way Paul was in Ephesians 2. He is addressing the conduct of Hebrews Christians in James 2 the exact same way Paul did in 1 Cor. 11. Both groups were guilty of discriminating against poor believers. Paul says some of you are sick and some of you sleep, James says, is this even saving faith? God can cover your sin completely with the blood of Christ, what he simply won't tolerate is you mistreating other believers like this, he takes that personally. The works James is talking about are about bearing fruit and loving the church that Christ died for.

As many times as I've seen this pointless and circular controversy I have yet to see anyone making it acknowledge that one glaring, obvious fact.

klutedavid · May 27, 2019

Guojing said:
There are different ways to handle the book of James.

You can just take it as salvation = faith + works, which is the stand of Roman Catholic, and many other denominations.

You can take it as salvation = faith only, but if you have no works after you are saved, you may lose your salvation, which is a more subtle way than the way above.

You can take it as Paul is saying justification before God, which is faith only. But James is talking about justification before Man, which requires work.

You can take a pure dispensationalist view, as you said, James being placed in the latter NT books even though it was written before Acts 15 event, James is meant for those who will be justified after the grace dispensation is over, the tribulation period, where you need faith and works once again.

Saved by grace.

If we are not saved by grace then salvation is not a free gift.

Romans 3:24
Being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus.

Romans 11:6
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Acts 15:11
But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.

mark kennedy · May 27, 2019

klutedavid said:
Saved by grace.

If we are not saved by grace then salvation is not a free gift.

Romans 3:24
Being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus.

Romans 11:6
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Acts 15:11
But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.

James not only agreed with all of that but recommended a letter be written to new Christians in Galatia explaining it, at the close of the Jerusalem Council.

DM25 · May 27, 2019

Dave L said:
James says; “You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” (James 2:24)

Paul says; “For we consider that a person is declared righteous by faith apart from the works of the law.” (Romans 3:28)

James speaks of genuine faith that works by love. Paul speaks of genuine Faith (that works by love) apart from the Ten Commandments which cannot save.

Nope. That is assumption made by man and it's wrong. That's adding onto scripture and making up in your mind what work they are talking about. The gospel message is not supposed to confuse people. When God says don't work, he means it. He doesn't want anyone to perish thinking their works partly justify them, regardless of what kind of work it is. Works is works, plain and simple. And faith is faith.

mark kennedy · May 27, 2019

DM25 said:
Nope. That is assumption made by man and it's wrong. That's adding onto scripture and making up in your mind what work they are talking about. The gospel message is not supposed to confuse people. When God says don't work, he means it. He doesn't want anyone to perish thinking their works partly justify them, regardless of what kind of work it is. Works is works, plain and simple.

Not doing the works James is talking about will disqualify you, why were the goats sent to perdition and the sheep taking into heaven? What works are James talking about, what is the royal law, what kind of saving faith fails to love God and the Church Christ died for. Works isn't always punching a clock and getting paid, sometimes it's just the gospel working by producing fruit in the life of the believer. That's not for salvation, that is salvation.

klutedavid · May 27, 2019

mark kennedy said:
James not only agreed with all of that but recommended a letter be written to new Christians in Galatia explaining it, at the close of the Jerusalem Council.

Regardless of any interpretation, any doctrine, Christ comes first and foremost and so logically grace takes precedence.

Faith is a gift that is received and one cannot even conduct a work (legal or otherwise) without first receiving the empowering Holy Spirit.

Only ever saved by grace and because of that all the glory belongs to Jesus.

mark kennedy · May 27, 2019

klutedavid said:
Regardless of any interpretation, any doctrine, Christ comes first and foremost and so logically grace takes precedence.

Faith is a gift that is received and one cannot even conduct a work (legal or otherwise) without first receiving the empowering Holy Spirit.

Only ever saved by grace and because of that all the glory belongs to Jesus.

That's not an interpretation, it's all over the New Testament. It's called justification by grace through faith and no Christian tradition denies it, none I have ever seen. With regards to works, you have to bear fruit or your not saved and Jesus was crystal clear on this point, an unfruitful tree is cut down and cast into the fire.

klutedavid · May 27, 2019

mark kennedy said:
That's not an interpretation, it's all over the New Testament. It's called justification by grace through faith and no Christian tradition denies it, none I have ever seen. With regards to works, you have to bear fruit or your not saved and Jesus was crystal clear on this point, an unfruitful tree is cut down and cast into the fire.

You misunderstand the importance of the grace of God. The grace of God is what is offered and that is through Jesus Christ, and is always a free gift.

The reconciliation was established by Jesus Christ in His blood and that was between Him and His Father. This was above and beyond any human interaction at any level. This divine reconciliation is the foundation of the Christian gospel, that reconciliation grants the very gift of faith and salvation.

2 Corinthians 5:18
Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation.

Ephesians 1:7
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace.

mark kennedy · May 27, 2019

klutedavid said:
You misunderstand the importance of the grace of God. The grace of God is what is offered and that is through Jesus Christ, and is always a free gift.

The reconciliation was established by Jesus Christ in His blood and that was between Him and His Father. This was above and beyond any human interaction at any level. This divine reconciliation is the foundation of the Christian gospel, that reconciliation grants the very gift of faith and salvation.

2 Corinthians 5:18
Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation.

Ephesians 1:7
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace.

I do not misunderstand at all. There is a discussion of works in 1 Cor. 12, the work of building up the body of Christ. Those works are done by the exercise of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, using a word that literally means grace.

klutedavid · May 27, 2019

mark kennedy said:
I do not misunderstand at all. There is a discussion of works in 1 Cor. 12, the work of building up the body of Christ. Those works are done by the exercise of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, using a word that literally means grace.

You said, 'the gifts of the Holy Spirit'.

Now you cannot receive the gift of the Holy Spirit unless what occurs first?

mark kennedy · May 27, 2019

klutedavid said:
You said, 'the gifts of the Holy Spirit'.

Now you cannot receive the gift of the Holy Spirit unless what occurs first?

You mean justification by grace through faith, or receiving the Holy Spirit of promise, or recieving a gift of the Holy Spirit? Depends on what you mean, the word used in 1 Cor. 12 is Charisma, a Greek word the literally means grace. Paul said he worked harder then any of the other apostles, he said the reason for that was the grace that worked in him. Where sin abounds grace abounds, he that is forgiven little, loves little. Those who are forgiven much love much.

You seemed to think you understand grace and works yet you think they are at odds with one another. What I'm seeing is a topic that never defines grace or works and talks endlessly in circles about both and neither. This is absolutely unnesacary, this particular essential doctrine is easily nailed down in irrefutable fashion if you bother to explore the New Testament meaning of those words. Proof texts abound.

bling · May 27, 2019

DM25 said:
The book of James confused me a lot. Everywhere in scripture it says we are saved by faith alone, not works, so I got confused about James 2. I saw some preachers twisting scripture in a way that still did not make sense... Saying things like being saved from man and stuff like that.

So I prayed to God for him to explain to me, and I figured it out! The book of James is talking to the 12 tribes of Israel (James 1:1). The 12 tribes of Israels are also mentioned in the book of Revelation. James is actually a prophetic book, talking to the Jews in the last days during tribulation. This is shown in James 5:3, literally saying that this is for them during the "last days". And we know during the time of Jacob's trouble, the Jews are not saved by faith alone, but by faith and works. This includes enduring until the end, avoiding the mark, and keeping the commandments of God (Revelation 14:12). So this book is not for the church, but for the 12 tribes of Israel, the Jews during the time of Jacob's trouble and tribulation in the last days. It was very eye opening when I realized this and it made a lot of sense.

That's why its important to rightly divide and pay attention who the message is for and really read what it is saying, rather than make a complete theology from one verse in the bible.

Are you suggesting there were two different gospels floating around at the same time?
When do you think this stopped and why is it not true today for Jews?

klutedavid · May 27, 2019

mark kennedy said:
You mean justification by grace through faith, or receiving the Holy Spirit of promise, or recieving a gift of the Holy Spirit? Depends on what you mean, the word used in 1 Cor. 12 is Charisma, a Greek word the literally means grace. Paul said he worked harder then any of the other apostles, he said the reason for that was the grace that worked in him. Where sin abounds grace abounds, he that is forgiven little, loves little. Those who are forgiven much love much.

You seemed to think you understand grace and works yet you think they are at odds with one another. What I'm seeing is a topic that never defines grace or works and talks endlessly in circles about both and neither. This is absolutely unnesacary, this particular essential doctrine is easily nailed down in irrefutable fashion if you bother to explore the New Testament meaning of those words. Proof texts abound.

You are tangled up in your theology, ultimately in your understanding of the revelation of the Christ.

Your faith is a gift, your salvation is a gift, grace itself is freely granted. We can stop at this point because the fruit of the Spirit is also a gift given to you.

You only ever were saved by the grace of God.

We can not proceed in any discussion of faith and works unless one accepts, that they are saved by grace first.

Romans 3:24
Being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus.

Barney2.0 · May 27, 2019

You can only have an issue with the book of James and it’s context in the rest of the Bible if you hold to Sola Fide like all Protestants do. Even before I got to know what Protestantism actually teaches on the subject I never saw a contradiction there. Keep in mind there’s no verse in the whole Bible which says we’re saved by faith alone and nothing else. This type of reasoning is what caused Luther to try to shove James out of the Bible which also is the reason Sola Scriptura simply doesn’t work. One thing leads to another which leads to another and then in the end we end up rejecting the Bible as a text and Christianity as a faith due to self made problems. Who knows where the reformers would go if they kept continuing, only God knows.

mark kennedy · May 27, 2019

klutedavid said:
You are tangled up in your theology, ultimately in your understanding of the revelation of the Christ.

No I'm not this is pure gospel. You are tangled up chasing ghosts in the fog because of you fuzzy understanding of grace and works. I've tried theology and I'm no good at it. When I get into essential doctrine, I go to the Scriptures and the gospel respectively.

Your faith is a gift, your salvation is a gift, grace itself is freely granted. We can stop at this point because the fruit of the Spirit is also a gift given to you.

I just told you that and you responded my theology is jacked up.

You only ever were saved by the grace of God.

Who doesn't know that?

We can not proceed in any discussion of faith and works unless one accepts, that they are saved by grace first.

I covered that, it's called justification by grace through faith. You apparently have no idea what that is because your arguing in circles around it.

Not David · May 27, 2019

DM25 said:
What do you have trouble understanding? Scripture says we are saved by faith, not works. Faith alone... There's either faith, works, or both. If it says faith, not works, that means faith alone. This is basic reading comprehension. The term trinity isn't in the bible either, but the father, son, and holy spirit is.

Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

"You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." (James 2:24)

mark kennedy · May 27, 2019

Al Masihi said:
You can only have an issue with the book of James and it’s context in the rest of the Bible if you hold to Sola Fide like all Protestants do. Even before I got to know what Protestantism actually teaches on the subject I never saw a contradiction there. Keep in mind there’s no verse in the whole bible which says we’re saved by faith alone and nothing else. This type of reasoning is what caused Luther to try to shove James out of the Bible which also is the reason Sola Scriptura simply doesn’t work. One thing leads to another which leads to another and then in the end we end up rejecting the Bible as a text and Christianity as a faith due to self made problems. Who knows where the reformers would go if they kept continuing only God knows.

What is Romans 3:28, chopped liver? Did you ever read Peter's answer to the Pharisees in Acts 15, the Jerusalem Council agreed to unanimously? That is pure justification by grace through faith. That's to say nothing of it being a constant theme at the heart of the emphasis in Romans.

Not David · May 27, 2019

Al Masihi said:
You can only have an issue with the book of James and it’s context in the rest of the Bible if you hold to Sola Fide like all Protestants do. Even before I got to know what Protestantism actually teaches on the subject I never saw a contradiction there. Keep in mind there’s no verse in the whole bible which says we’re saved by faith alone and nothing else. This type of reasoning is what caused Luther to try to shove James out of the Bible which also is the reason Sola Scriptura simply doesn’t work. One thing leads to another which leads to another and then in the end we end up rejecting the Bible as a text and Christianity as a faith due to self made problems. Who knows where the reformers would go if they kept continuing only God knows.

Exactly! That Luther tried to get rid of James shows that his theology was more important than the Bible.

Revelation About the Book of James

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