Revelation 2 & 3

[KJV1611Warrior]

Jesus Himself addressed the church in Revelation 2 and 3. These seven churches are a representation of the whole. Shouldn't we judge ourselves against the admonition of our Lord Jesus Christ instead of creeds, sacraments, etc.? For instance does your church "sufferest that woman Jezebel?" Does your church "hold the doctrines of the nicolaitans?" Is your church "lukewarm", etc.? If we held fast to these admonitions then wolves like Rick Warren, Joel Osteen, etc. would be unemployed and ecumenical compromises with Islam and the Vatican would not be occurring.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Jesus Himself addressed the church in Revelation 2 and 3. These seven churches are a representation of the whole. Shouldn't we judge ourselves against the admonition of our Lord Jesus Christ instead of creeds, sacraments, etc.? For instance does your church "sufferest that woman Jezebel?" Does your church "hold the doctrines of the nicolaitans?" Is your church "lukewarm", etc.? If we held fast to these admonitions then wolves like Rick Warren, Joel Osteen, etc. would be unemployed and ecumenical compromises with Islam and the Vatican would not be occurring.

On what basis do you make these seven churches "a representation of the whole"?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[KJV1611Warrior]

Because they are the only ones addressed by the Lord and I reason that they are representative of the body as a whole. Also, they correspond to the seven churches that Paul wrote to as well.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Because they are the only ones addressed by the Lord and I reason that they are representative of the body as a whole. Also, they correspond to the seven churches that Paul wrote to as well.

How do they correspond to the church communities Paul wrote to? The only one is Ephesus. Also Galatia is a region, and thus has a broader audience-base than the others.

The reason I'm making these points isn't to simply be contentious, I find that when dealing with much of Scripture, in particular St. John's Apocalypse, a great deal of assumption is made.

So, for me, I see no reason to assume the seven churches are anything other than seven churches, I don't see how the seven churches as seven church archetypes naturally comes from reading the text. The text is specifically addressed to seven communities located in Asia Minor, communities suffering persecution from the Roman authorities--of which John says he is a fellow-sharer in those sufferings, and in fact is on Patmos for that very reason.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Nova Scotian Boy]

I agree with ViaCrucis, revelation is written to seven specific churches with there own problems. I further more do don't get what your getting as about creeds and sacraments. I think that the church needs the Sacraments and adherence to the creeds and Confessions more then ever, in fact i would say the church is as messed up as it is because they have ceased to see those things as important. The sooner the church reclaims them the sooner heresy and false teachers like you mention will loose control.

 

[KJV1611Warrior]

A brief example is that Colossians was to be exchanged with the Laodiceans. If you notice, there are SEVEN churches that seem to denote completion, thus encompassing the whole. Also, the point is that in the instance of Paul and our Lord, there are seven churches addressed, therefore it is reasonable to surmise that they would be a complete representation of all the churches that comprise the collective body of Christ. Quite frankly it is obvious.

The seven churches also seem to present a prophetic overview of the church age.

 

[bbbbbbb]

A brief example is that Colossians was to be exchanged with the Laodiceans. If you notice, there are SEVEN churches that seem to denote completion, thus encompassing the whole. Also, the point is that in the instance of Paul and our Lord, there are seven churches addressed, therefore it is reasonable to surmise that they would be a complete representation of all the churches that comprise the collective body of Christ. Quite frankly it is obvious.

The seven churches also seem to present a prophetic overview of the church age.

Quite frankly, it is not in the least bit "obvious" and does require a certain level of theological invention to come to this conclusion. As you may know, there are multiple interpretations as to the significance of the letters to the seven churches of Revelation. Your particular view is, by far, one held by only a very small number of professing Christians.

 

[KJV1611Warrior]

I think you're missing my point, and I apologize for not being clearer. My main point is as follows; is there a christian or group of christians that is outside the scope of the seven churches addressed in Rev. 2 & 3? Is there a believer to whom none of the admonitions therein do not apply? I don't think so personally. Therefore, since Jesus Christ Himself is addressing the church, we should examine ourselves in light of what He said. It's as if He's grading us. Two of the churches get an "A" so to speak and the others seem to miss the mark.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I think you're missing my point, and I apologize for not being clearer. My main point is as follows; is there a christian or group of christians that is outside the scope of the seven churches addressed in Rev. 2 & 3? Is there a believer to whom none of the admonitions therein do not apply? I don't think so personally. Therefore, since Jesus Christ Himself is addressing the church, we should examine ourselves in light of what He said. It's as if He's grading us. Two of the churches get an "A" so to speak and the others seem to miss the mark.

All scripture is profitable for believers. Thus, one must conclude that these letters are profitable for believers. However, they do not address every issue in the Christian life. For example, there is not a single word about marriage and family life, both of which are addressed at length elsewhere in scripture.

Are the admonitions of these letters to be applied to every Christian unilaterally? I think not. Otherwise, there would have been only one letter rather than seven with each crafted to address a particular church. To be certain, some Christians may be lukewarm, but others, indeed, are cold or hot. Thus, it is absurd to admonish a hot Christian to cease from being lukewarm.

 

[KJV1611Warrior]

You missed my point. Anyway, marriage and family life? Jesus rebuked the Ephesians "because thou hast left thy first love". Also, you help prove my point because Paul addresses those other issues throughout his epistles to SEVEN different churches. Have you ever taken note of the many instances of the number 7 throughout scripture and what it denotes?

 

[bbbbbbb]

You missed my point. Anyway, marriage and family life? Jesus rebuked the Ephesians "because thou hast left thy first love". Also, you help prove my point because Paul addresses those other issues throughout his epistles to SEVEN different churches. Have you ever taken note of the many instances of the number 7 throughout scripture and what it denotes?

Numerology is an interesting study in scripture and the numbers 3, 7, and 12 play prominent roles. Multitudes of books have been written on the subject, as I am sure you know.

One can make too much, or too little, of the meaning of these numbers, so I advise caution to anyone who wishes to add to scripture, or take away from it.

As it is, Paul also wrote pastoral letters to three individuals,of which one received two letters (as was the case with the church in Corinth, which actually received at least three letters from Paul, of which two have found their way into the Bible). I could state that Paul's pastoral epistles must be utterly divine because there are three individuals representative of the persons of the holy trinity. I could then attribute divine characteristics to each individual. However, would I be correct in doing so?

 

[toLiJC]

the faith must be clean from all kinds (of) unrighteousness, and unrighteousness is what hinders the direct salvation for all humans in the true God and Jesus, this also includes the suspicious/unsure things

Blessings

 

[Barraco]

Jesus Himself addressed the church in Revelation 2 and 3. These seven churches are a representation of the whole. Shouldn't we judge ourselves against the admonition of our Lord Jesus Christ instead of creeds, sacraments, etc.? For instance does your church "sufferest that woman Jezebel?" Does your church "hold the doctrines of the nicolaitans?" Is your church "lukewarm", etc.? If we held fast to these admonitions then wolves like Rick Warren, Joel Osteen, etc. would be unemployed and ecumenical compromises with Islam and the Vatican would not be occurring.

Hey KJV,

Interesting post. I noticed that John had an encounter in Revelation 1 like Daniel did in Daniel chapter 10, which led into chapter 11. The purpose of Daniel's visitation was to tell Daniel what would befall the Jews and Jerusalem in his future.

Likewise, John was given an vision of what would befall the Church in his future. The point about Jesus (whom looked like the man in Daniel 10) standing in the midst of the seven churches further emphasizes that point. No doubt, the selection of the churches was not accidental.

There were churches in Galatia, Thessalonici, and Corinth. Why were they not addressed? Evidently, their selection was critical to the themes of the vision and were addressed accordingly. Therefore, all churches were addressed at the end of each of the seven letters.

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.' (Revelation 2:7 ESV)

 

[gtopawb]

You could always try a general discussion area like