Revelation 19:21 vs Zechariah 14:16

[DavidPT]

One reason for this thread is the following.


It is not only Amils who take Revelation 19:21 to mean there are no mortal lost survivors post the 2nd coming, there are also some Premils who take it to mean that as well. For example, Seventh Day Adventists. But not only those Premils, other Premils as well, who are not SDAs.

Therefore, though I am Premil not Amil, this is irrelevant and somewhat misleading since there are some Premils who interpret Revelation 19:21 in the same manner as most Amils do, thus not fair to those Premils by giving the impression all Premils interpret Revelation 19:21 in the same manner, that Zechariah 14:16 proves some are not interpreting Revelation 19:21 correctly.

Though, this thread involves Premil vs Amil, it doesn't involve that only. It involves anyone, whether Amil or Premil, who insists that Revelation 19:21 proves that there are no mortal lost survivors post the 2nd coming, therefore, Zechariah 14:16 is not a valid way to disprove that.

Which then leads to, is it really true that Zechariah 14:16 can't be used to disprove that Revelation 19:21 allegedly proves that there are no mortal lost survivors post the 2nd coming? Thus what I'm attempting to uncover throughout the thread. Is or is not Zechariah 14:16 a valid way to debunk how some are interpreting Revelation 19:21, that it allegedly proves that there are no mortal lost survivors post the 2nd coming?

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

And the remnant were slain--and all the fowls were filled with their flesh---vs---every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year

Unless one is maybe a Preterist, pretty much everyone else at least agrees that Revelation 19:21 is involving the bodily return of Christ in the end of this age and that what is recorded in verse 21 is one thing that happens once He returns.

But how should we be interpreting Revelation 19:21 in light of Zechariah 14:16? The first place to start is by establishing what era of time Zechariah 14:16 is involving. Is it involving the same era of time Revelation 19:21 is involving? Is it involving an era of time prior to when Revelation 19:21 is meaning? Is it involving an era of time post when Revelation 19:21 is meaning? Let's reason through some of Zechariah 14 to try and determine that.

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.


As to the day of the Lord meant here, what era of time does the NT indicate this fits during?

Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

These are the main passages in the NT which mention the day of the Lord. Of course though, there are other passages in the NT which do not mention the day of the Lord, but that it is plainly obvious to a lot of us that it is involving this same day of the Lord that comes as a thief in the night. One such passage is Matthew 24:34-39.

Obviously, regardless what era of time one applies Zechariah 14:1 to, Zechariah 14:16 is clearly meaning post that. That means when Zechariah 14:16 begins to come to pass, everything recorded in Zechariah 14:1-5 and Zechariah 14:12-15, these events are all in the past at this point. Which should basically mean Zechariah 14:16 is involving the same era of time Zechariah 14:6-11 is involving.

The question is, the era of time Zechariah 14:6-11 is involving, is that meaning before or after when Revelation 19:21 is meaning? If it is meaning before, that would indicate Zechariah 14:16 is involving an era of time prior to when Revelation 19:21 is meaning.

While OTOH, if the era of time Zechariah 14:6-11 is involving, that it is meaning after when Revelation 19:21 is meaning, this means that Zechariah 14:16 fits with an era of time post that of Revelation 19:21. Which then means we can't take Revelation 19:21 to mean every single lost mortal that was still alive when Christ returns since this would contradict Zechariah 14:16 and this part---every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year.

Is one going to argue that only the NT is holy writ and that the OT isn't? The idea is to square these passages, not have then contradicting each other instead, right?


I'm not done reasoning through Zechariah 14 yet, in order to establish when Zechariah 14:16 is meaning in relation to when Revelation 19:21 is meaning. This should be enough to get us started. And since Zechariah 14 involves prophecy, chronology of events are therefore relevant. For example, who would argue, and expect to be taken serious, regardless where one places Zechariah 14:2 in time, that verse 11 is chronologically meaning before verse 2 rather than chronologically after? No one, right? Thus chronology is relevant in Zechariah 14, otherwise it wouldn't matter where verse 11 fits in relation to verse 2.

 

[DavidPT]

Zechariah 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.


If I am correct, and I'm pretty certain I am, that Zechariah 14:16 is involving the era of time these verses are, what era of time are these verses involving? Regardless what verse 8 might be meaning, one thing we at least know is that it is meaning when both of the following events are true.

1) And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

2) And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.


Obviously, according to verse 2, Jerusalem is not safely inhabited at the time. Therefore, that at least tells us that the time period verse 2 is involving is not the same time period verses 8-11 are involving. One can't divorce verse 11 from verse 8 and 9. They are all involving the same era of time, meaning verses 8-11. Obviously, there was no time in the first century where this was ever true---and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited---the fact 70 AD happened to Jerusalem, thus contradicts there shall be no more utter destruction.

Already this is telling us that verses 8-11 are meaning post 70 AD. Yet, some would have us believe that verse 8 and 9 are already meaning before 70 AD. Except, if true, that contradicts what verse 11 records since verse 11 is meaning during verse 8 and 9.

If the NT sheds light on the OT, everyone should already know that 2 Thessalonians 2:4 has to be fulfilled before Christ can bodily return.

2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


In light of what this verse records, does that sound like what Zechariah 14:9 is meaning?

in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one--vs---Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


Of course it doesn't. These passages contradict each other if involving the same era of time. But I can show you a passage that is involving the same era of time Zechariah 14:9 is involving.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


Unless one is a Preterist, is anyone going to argue that the 7th trumpet has already sounded? Probably not, right? We then have the following.

And the seventh angel sounded---The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever---vs---And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one

Do these passages agree with each other, or do they contradict each other? Obviously, the former. And since the former has to mean post 2 Thessalonians 2:4, so must the latter have to mean post 2 Thessalonians 2:4. Thus no contradictions.

Which means this is further proof Zechariah 14:16 is meaning post Revelation 19:21. Therefore, one can't take Revelation 19:21 to mean there are no unsaved mortal survivors. Obviously, if one can be punished for failing to come up, this can't be meaning the saved, it has to be meaning the unsaved. Which means there are still some that are unsaved when Christ returns yet not destroyed when He returns. Which then tends to make sense of the rebellion post the thousand years.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

And the remnant were slain--and all the fowls were filled with their flesh---vs---every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year

Unless one is maybe a Preterist, pretty much everyone else at least agrees that Revelation 19:21 is involving the bodily return of Christ in the end of this age and that what is recorded in verse 21 is one thing that happens once He returns.

But how should we be interpreting Revelation 19:21 in light of Zechariah 14:16? The first place to start is by establishing what era of time Zechariah 14:16 is involving. Is it involving the same era of time Revelation 19:21 is involving? Is it involving an era of time prior to when Revelation 19:21 is meaning? Is it involving an era of time post when Revelation 19:21 is meaning? Let's reason through some of Zechariah 14 to try and determine that.

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.


As to the day of the Lord meant here, what era of time does the NT indicate this fits during?

Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

These are the main passages in the NT which mention the day of the Lord. Of course though, there are other passages in the NT which do not mention the day of the Lord, but that it is plainly obvious to a lot of us that it is involving this same day of the Lord that comes as a thief in the night. One such passage is Matthew 24:34-39.

Obviously, regardless what era of time one applies Zechariah 14:1 to, Zechariah 14:16 is clearly meaning post that. That means when Zechariah 14:16 begins to come to pass, everything recorded in Zechariah 14:1-5 and Zechariah 14:12-15, these events are all in the past at this point. Which should basically mean Zechariah 14:16 is involving the same era of time Zechariah 14:6-11 is involving.
thi
The question is, the era of time Zechariah 14:6-11 is involving, is that meaning before or after when Revelation 19:21 is meaning? If it is meaning before, that would indicate Zechariah 14:16 is involving an era of time prior to when Revelation 19:21 is meaning.

While OTOH, if the era of time Zechariah 14:6-11 is involving, that it is meaning after when Revelation 19:21 is meaning, this means that Zechariah 14:16 fits with an era of time post that of Revelation 19:21. Which then means we can't take Revelation 19:21 to mean every single lost mortal that was still alive when Christ returns since this would contradict Zechariah 14:16 and this part---every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year.

Is one going to argue that only the NT is holy writ and that the OT isn't? The idea is to square these passages, not have then contradicting each other instead, right?

That is right except what you have never learned and accepted is that the NT sheds light on the OT and not the other way around. For example, the NT teaches that the promises made to Abraham and his seed were made to Christ and those who have faith like Abraham and belong to Christ (Galatians 3:16-29). Tell me, is that made clear in the OT? No way, right? Yet, it is made very clear in the NT. So, which testament is the one that sheds light on the other? Or, in other words, which one is more clear and straightforward when it comes to prophecy and which one is more obscure? It should be obvious that the NT sheds light on the OT and provides us with a clearer understanding of the OT prophecies than the text in those prophecies itself does.

So, with all of this in mind, if you can't find NT scripture to support your interpretation of Zechariah 14, which I fully believe that you can't, then your interpretation can't possibly be correct.

I'm not done reasoning through Zechariah 14 yet, in order to establish when Zechariah 14:16 is meaning in relation to when Revelation 19:21 is meaning. This should be enough to get us started. And since Zechariah 14 involves prophecy, chronology of events are therefore relevant. For example, who would argue, and expect to be taken serious, regardless where one places Zechariah 14:2 in time, that verse 11 is chronologically meaning before verse 2 rather than chronologically after? No one, right? Thus chronology is relevant in Zechariah 14, otherwise it wouldn't matter where verse 11 fits in relation to verse 2.

You always go back to Zechariah 14 after trying to refute Amil in other ways. I have no interest in going verse by verse through Zechariah 14 with you yet again. We've already discussed it many times. You know that I believe a literal, futurist interpretation of that passage implies that animal sacrifices would be reinstated, which is impossible according to Hebrews 8-10. We don't need to go over that again.

So, instead of repeating things I've said several times to you before already regarding Zechariah 14, I'd like to look at this from another angle.

First of all, Zechariah 14 says nothing about a battle at Armageddon. Instead, it talks about a battle in Jerusalem. If the battle of Armageddon was meant to be taken literally, as in a physical battle at the physical location of Armageddon, then Armageddon would be understood to be a reference to the valley of Megiddo, where ancient battles were fought, and that place was not located in Jerusalem. I say that because the English word Armageddon is translated from the Greek word "Magedon" which is Greek for the Hebrew word Megiddo.

So, with that in mind, why are you relating things in Zechariah 14 that pertain to Jerusalem directly with things in Revelation 19 that pertain to a place that is not Jerusalem called Armageddon?

There is one other angle I'd like to bring up that I haven't brought up before. Look at this text:

Zechariah 14:12 This is the plague with which the Lord will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths. 13 On that day people will be stricken by the Lord with great panic. They will seize each other by the hand and attack one another.

Can you see a problem with taking this passage literally as Premils tend to do with all of Zechariah 14? How could anyone survive their flesh literally rotting, their eyes rotting in their sockets and their tongues rotting in their mouths? If that was meant to be taken literally then it would be talking about people being incinerated. No one can survive that. Yet, in the very next verse it talks about those same people attacking one another. Clearly, this can't all be taken literally since, obviously, burned up people can't fight each other. So, it is clearly a mistake to take all or even most of Zechariah 14 literally the way you do.

 

[Douggg]

Zechariah 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.


If I am correct, and I'm pretty certain I am, that Zechariah 14:16 is involving the era of time these verses are, what era of time are these verses involving? Regardless what verse 8 might be meaning, one thing we at least know is that it is meaning when both of the following events are true.

1) And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

2) And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.


Obviously, according to verse 2, Jerusalem is not safely inhabited at the time. Therefore, that at least tells us that the time period verse 2 is involving is not the same time period verses 8-11 are involving. One can't divorce verse 11 from verse 8 and 9. They are all involving the same era of time, meaning verses 8-11. Obviously, there was no time in the first century where this was ever true---and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited---the fact 70 AD happened to Jerusalem, thus contradicts there shall be no more utter destruction.

Already this is telling us that verses 8-11 are meaning post 70 AD. Yet, some would have us believe that verse 8 and 9 are already meaning before 70 AD. Except, if true, that contradicts what verse 11 records since verse 11 is meaning during verse 8 and 9.

If the NT sheds light on the OT, everyone should already know that 2 Thessalonians 2:4 has to be fulfilled before Christ can bodily return.

2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


In light of what this verse records, does that sound like what Zechariah 14:9 is meaning?

in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one--vs---Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


Of course it doesn't. These passages contradict each other if involving the same era of time. But I can show you a passage that is involving the same era of time Zechariah 14:9 is involving.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


Unless one is a Preterist, is anyone going to argue that the 7th trumpet has already sounded? Probably not, right? We then have the following.

And the seventh angel sounded---The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever---vs---And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one

Do these passages agree with each other, or do they contradict each other? Obviously, the former. And since the former has to mean post 2 Thessalonians 2:4, so must the latter have to mean post 2 Thessalonians 2:4. Thus no contradictions.

Which means this is further proof Zechariah 14:16 is meaning post Revelation 19:21. Therefore, one can't take Revelation 19:21 to mean there are no unsaved mortal survivors. Obviously, if one can be punished for failing to come up, this can't be meaning the saved, it has to be meaning the unsaved. Which means there are still some that are unsaved when Christ returns yet not destroyed when He returns. Which then tends to make sense of the rebellion post the thousand years.

David, imo, you should go back to your opening two posts - and at the start of each post, before anything else, make an easy to understand statement of what you are trying to prove.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

This is the Second Coming where the Lord will slay with His Word (sword out of His mouth) the "remnant" of the unsaved who will be physically "alive and remain" on Earth while the saved "alive and remain" will be translated and rapture to the air.

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

This is the FIRST coming where the Lord has established a kingdom through the church where Christian go worship the King and keep the feast of Tabernacles during the New Testament period. Anyone interested to read an article about the Feast of Tabernacles may read here.

And the remnant were slain--and all the fowls were filled with their flesh---vs---every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year.

Both verses are NOT speaking about the SAME event.

 

[DavidPT]

David, imo, you should go back to your opening two posts - and at the start of each post, before anything else, make an easy to understand statement of what you are trying to prove.

The title of the thread is what the OP is in regards to. One account gives the impression there are no survivors. The other account indicates there are survivors. This is not a problem if Zechariah 14:16 is meaning before Revelation 19:21. But it is a problem if Zechariah 14:16 is meaning after Revelation 19:21. The reason why is because Zechariah 14:16-19 involves punishments for failing to keep the feast of tabernacles, meaning after they are spared, not before they are spared. And if meaning after the 2nd coming, how does one explain these punishments if all the lost are in the LOF once Christ returns, thus no one but the saved remaining? Thus the great white throne judgment is fulfilled when Christ returns.

Except after the GWTJ there couldn't possibly be anyone still being punished or threatened with punishments, therefore, the era of time Zechariah 14:16-19 is involving has to be meaning before the GWTJ, not after it. And keeping in mind, that Zechariah 14:16-19 is involving the same era of time Zechariah 14:6-11 is involving.

It's really a question of, what era of time is Zechariah 14:6-11 involving? Where I already went over some of that in post #2.

The way Zechariah 14 reads to me is like such. Verses 1-5, and verses 12-15, these involve the final days of this age which results in the 2nd coming. Verses 16-21 involve the same era of time verses 6-11 are involving. Most, if not everyone, are not going to dispute that verses 1-5, and verses 12-15, are not pertaining to an age post the 2nd coming. Those verses are not in question so much.

It is mainly verses 6-11 and verses 16-21 that are in question, in regards to where do they fit? In this present age prior to the 2nd coming? Or in another age following the 2nd coming? If the latter, keeping in mind the title of this thread, this indicates one can't take Revelation 19:21 to mean all of the unsaved still alive when Christ returns when Zechariah 14:16 would be contradicting that.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Zechariah 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

Zechariah chapter 14 clearly connects the feast of Tabernacles with the prophesied kingdom of Christ, and how living waters would only be in Jerusalem, and all the people would have to go there. Obviously, this is not to say that literally every believer in the world has to go to the Middle East and visit physical city of Jerusalem every year. That's not how the gospel works.

There are many theologians who have misunderstood the prophecy of Zechariah 14, and are confused concerning the feast of Tabernacles mentioned there. This is somewhat understandable, because for most people, Zechariah chapter 14 is one of the most difficult chapters in the Bible which requires the Spirit of Christ (wisdom - spiritual discernment) to understand what God is really talking about here. When we read there about the coming of Christ, when living waters would go out from Jerusalem, and the Lord is King over the whole earth, like you, many look at this as something future. But this is speaking of Christ's first advent, and it was fulfilled at the cross. He "IS" the Living water (Holy Spirit) and He is the King of kings and Lord of lords. That's all accomplished! But because there are some verses which are (even to some seasoned veterans of scripture) quite difficult to understand, many theologians have concluded that this has to be a future event. Nevertheless, the fact is, Jerusalem "is" dwelling safely Now, because the Jerusalem that is in view there is NOT a literal city, but the city spoken of in Isaiah chapter 40 where it says, "Comfort ye Jerusalem, thy warfare is accomplished." That's not a physical or literal holy city in the middle east, that is the body of believers which makes up of spiritual Jerusalem! And it's not talking about literal earthly warfare there, it's talking about spiritual warfare finished. In other words, the saints are comforted and made safe in this city, when they drink of the living waters of Christ and make peace with God. Get it? That is when their warfare with Him is accomplished or finished. It has nothing to do with literal battles in Jerusalem that you assumed of. And because many theologians do not fully understand how God uses metaphors to paint spiritual pictures, they often go off in the wrong direction looking for truth. The Prince of peace is Him who has brought that peace and safety to Jerusalem. Not to a literal city that sits upon a pile of dirt, but to a spiritual city. When false prophets claim peace and safety for literal cities, they prophesy lies. For there is neither peace nor safety in earthly cities, earthly kingdoms, earthly treaties or covenants. Only in the true Holy City of God is there true peace and true safety. The camp of the saints is now the beloved Holy City that dwells safely BECAUSE Christ has bound Satan, and delivered His People from his house of bondage. And this is the peace that the Prince of Peace brought to comfort the city. Zechariah 14 in like manner uses symbolic language to demonstrate spiritual truths!

If I am correct, and I'm pretty certain I am, that Zechariah 14:16 is involving the era of time these verses are, what era of time are these verses involving? Regardless what verse 8 might be meaning, one thing we at least know is that it is meaning when both of the following events are true.

1) And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

2) And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

Again you are looking at things with the carnal mind. The living waters of verse 8 is HOLY SPIRIT that comes out of Jerusalem. Half of it go back to the former sea which covers the Saints of the Old Testament period (before the Cross). Half of it go into the hinder sea which covers the Saints of the New Testament period (after the Cross) that we DRINK! The Lord has established a kingdom at the Cross. How? The Old Testament congregation fell along with His Death, and in three days, He rebuilt it, this time with the New Testament congregation. You need to understand who Jersualem really is first. It is not literal city nor literal water!

Obviously, according to verse 2, Jerusalem is not safely inhabited at the time.

JErsualem was NOT safe BEFORE Satan was bound! But now she is dwell safely because Christ has bound Satan at the Cross. That is why the New Testament congregation is dwelling safely with believers for the past 2,000 years. Haven't you read in Ezekiel 38 where God said Gog and Magog will attack the city that is now safely?

Eze 38:8-12
(8) After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.
(9) Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.
(10) Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought:
(11) And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,
(12) To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.

This is talking about the congregation of Israel that once fought God but is brought back from war and it has accomplished! She is now gathered out of many people from nations where they are now dwelling safely... all of them! This is a New Testament congregation! They observe the feast of Tabernacles during that time because Satan was bound since the Cross. BUT after all Israel has been sealed, in the end, God will release Satan out of a bottomless pit where he will think he can easily attack the New Testament congregation with his lying signs and wonders BECAUSE he can see that God no longer protects His unfaithful congregation. She no longer walled villages. They no longer have walls. She no longer has bars and gates. His spiritual protection is gone because people of the congregation no longer want God and do whatever they want. Because of this, God gathers (hook in their mouths) Satan and his army of false prophets and christs into New Testament congregation to deceive those within as a judgment. This is what the battle of Gog and Magog (Armaeggdeon) actually looks like! It is a SPIRITUAL WAR! Not a physical war between Russia and the nation Israel that you may think of! One needs to smell and drink spiritual coffee to understand this!

Already this is telling us that verses 8-11 are meaning post 70 AD. Yet, some would have us believe that verse 8 and 9 are already meaning before 70 AD. Except, if true, that contradicts what verse 11 records since verse 11 is meaning during verse 8 and 9.

Incorrect. nothing to do with physical buildings or cities in 70AD.

Of the NT sheds light on the OT, everyone should already know that 2 Thessalonians 2:4 has to be fulfilled before Christ can bodily return.

It is all men with spirit of antichrist who rules (sit) in the Temple of God (New Testament congregation). And yes this must take place BEFORE Christ returns.

In light of what this verse records, does that sound like what Zechariah 14:9 is meaning?

in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one--vs---Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

No, Christ has already become king over all the Earth and has established his kingdom through the Church with His resurrection.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Second Coming.

Unless one is a Preterist, is anyone going to argue that the 7th trumpet has already sounded? Probably not, right? We then have the following.

Preterists do not know what they talk about. They really can't explain the "last trump" with their flawed 70AD doctrine anyway.

And the seventh angel sounded---The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever---vs---And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one

This is when the established Kingdom of God has been realized at the second coming. This will mark the end of men's governments and kingdoms when Christ returns.

 

[DavidPT]

Both verses are NOT speaking about the SAME event.

What is mainly in question is this. When Revelation 19:21 is meaning, what does that mean in regards to those recorded in Zechariah 14:16? If the latter can be punished for failing to keep the feast of tabernacles, this indicates the saved can't be meant here. Before Zechariah 14:16 can even come to pass, verse 12, for example, has to be fulfilled first. Where I tend to take verse 12 to be involving what Revelation 19:21 is involving.

Clearly, those recorded in verse 16 do not receive the plagues involving verse 12 the fact it says that they remain. No one after having received the plagues recorded in verse 12 could still be remaining. Therefore, those recorded in verse 16 do not receive the plagues recorded in verse 12. They are instead spared to live another day.

The fact you and some others don't take plagues recorded in the Bible in the literal sense at times, you probably argue that verse 12 is not to be taken in the literal sense. But none of that matters anyway since it doesn't change the fact that verse 16 is meaning after verse 12, and not one single thing during the past 2000 years through now, in any sense, can possibly fit what Zechariah 14:12 records. Therefore, Zechariah 14:16 is still future because Zechariah 14:12 is still future, and that Zechariah 14:16 is meaning after Zechariah 14:12.

 

[Douggg]

The title of the thread is what the OP is in regards to.

The title is just one passage vs the other passage. That is not sufficient in and of itself.

Thus the great white throne judgment is fulfilled when Christ returns.

If that is what you are trying to prove, then you should say so, in a easy to understand sentence at the very beginning of your post. And "when Christ returns" do you mean immediately when he returns, or do you mean after his thousand years reign ?

This thread is too hard to follow. I think I will skip.

 

[DavidPT]

Again you are looking at things with the carnal mind. The living waters of verse 8 is HOLY SPIRIT that comes out of Jerusalem. Half of it go back to the former sea which covers the Saints of the Old Testament period (before the Cross). Half of it go into the hinder sea which covers the Saints of the New Testament period (after the Cross) that we DRINK! The Lord has established a kingdom at the Cross. How? The Old Testament congregation fell along with His Death, and in three days, He rebuilt it, this time with the New Testament congregation. You need to understand who Jersualem really is first. It is not literal city nor literal water!

Except I tend to connect verse 8 in Zechariah 14 with Revelation 22:1, and that Revelation 22:1 is future still, not something that has already or is being currently fulfilled. In my view, regardless that most Premils disagree with me, Zechariah 14:6-11 is involving the new heavens and new earth after Christ has bodily returned. Which then tends to make sense out of some of what is recorded in Isaiah 60 involving verses 11 through 22. And by comparing to Revelation 21-22, the era of time appears to be involving the new heavens and new earth. And right in the midst of that context there is then verse 12.


Isaiah 60:12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.

This can't be meaning after the great white throne judgment. And that presents a major problem if one insists that the new heavens and new earth don't appear until after the great white throne judgment.

 

[TribulationSigns]

That is right except what you have never learned and accepted is that the NT sheds light on the OT and not the other way around. For example, the NT teaches that the promises made to Abraham and his seed were made to Christ and those who have faith like Abraham and belong to Christ (Galatians 3:16-29). Tell me, is that made clear in the OT? No way, right? Yet, it is made very clear in the NT. So, which testament is the one that sheds light on the other? Or, in other words, which one is more clear and straightforward when it comes to prophecy and which one is more obscure? It should be obvious that the NT sheds light on the OT and provides us with a clearer understanding of the OT prophecies than the text in those prophecies itself does.

The Old Testament is the New Testament concealed, and the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed.​

Zechariah 14:12 This is the plague with which the Lord will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths. 13 On that day people will be stricken by the Lord with great panic. They will seize each other by the hand and attack one another.

Can you see a problem with taking this passage literally as Premils tend to do with all of Zechariah 14? How could anyone survive their flesh literally rotting, their eyes rotting in their sockets and their tongues rotting in their mouths? If that was meant to be taken literally then it would be talking about people being incinerated. No one can survive that. Yet, in the very next verse it talks about those same people attacking one another. Clearly, this can't all be taken literally since, obviously, burned up people can't fight each other. So, it is clearly a mistake to take all or even most of Zechariah 14 literally the way you do.

Correct.

Sadly, there are many people out there who have "read into" Zechariah 14:12-13 as a humanistic theory of a nuclear bomb AS IF that is straight from the mouth of God and the only thing that would qualify as fulfillment. Let's check with verse again:

Zec 14:12
(12) And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

It says "plague" not a nuclear blast. See that word plague? That means we should define plagues by scripture, not by current events or televangelist prognosticators. We don't privately interpret a plague to mean a nuclear blast. If God had wanted to say great massive nuclear explosion created spectacular damage, He would have said that. For He knows "the end from the beginning." We also know the Biblical principle that the scriptures are not subject to our own private interpretation. If we're going to privately interpret flesh consuming away while people stand upon their feet, why not God bringing the Sun closer towards the earth to do it? I mean, if we're just going to guess at it. Why not have fire from heaven coming down and doing it? Why not have aliens from another planet coming with laser ray guns to do it? Why not have acid rain get so bad that it eats our flesh away? Why? Because the scriptures are not subject to our imaginations, fears, theories, myths, or private interpretations. It is subject only to itself. Therefore, scripture is its own interpreter and its own dictionary which is why we need to find his interpretation right in the Scripture, not world news or Popular Science magazine. Thus it will be plagues as defined in God's Word, not as defined by the movie, "late great planet earth" or sundry authors. We define the loss of eyes as illustrated in God's Word, not by man's ideas of earthly blinding. Selah! We then see the loss of tongue (language) or speech as defined in God's word, not as defined by man's "vivid" imagination. Selah!

Okay now, someone probably wondered what does Zechariah 14:12 actually talk about? I will give some hints so hopefully, people will research more for themselves with Scripture. The verse is talking about the fall of the unfaithful Old Testament congregation at the Cross where the people of the prince (unsaved Jews) were coming against Christ, will be burned with fire as judgment (not literally) where they no longer see the truth (eyes consume away) and their tongue has been taken away so that they cannot speak on the behalf of the kingdom anymore for their rejection of Messiah the Prince. This is why the blindness in part is happening to Israel and famine of hearing the Word of God because their tongues have been consumed. However, during the New Testament, there are many repentant Jews who heard the Gospel and repent. That is when their eyes will be restored and receive the power of the Holy Spirit to preach Gospel, just like the Gentiles! The rest of the Jews unfortunately will still be in blindness as they still are today.



Hope that helps

 

[TribulationSigns]

Zechariah 14:6-11 is involving the new heavens and new earth after Christ has bodily returned. Which then tends to make sense out of some of what is recorded in Isaiah 60 involving verses 11 through 22.

Stop please, you are digging a bigger hole you caught yourself in by misapplying Scripture all over the Bible!

I strongly suggest that you take a break and read the article link about the Feast of the Tabernacle provided above.

Good night.

 

[DavidPT]

The title is just one passage vs the other passage. That is not sufficient in and of itself.


If that is what you are trying to prove, then you should say so, in a easy to understand sentence at the very beginning of your post. And "when Christ returns" do you mean immediately when he returns, or do you mean after his thousand years reign ?

This thread is too hard to follow. I think I will skip.

This thread is not too hard to follow if one factors in Premil vs Amil. Amils do not believe Zechariah 14:16 supports Premil. Premils tend to believe it does. It is then a question of, where does Zechariah 14:16 fit in relation to Revelation 19:21? If it fits before Revelation 19:21, it then doesn't support Premil one way or the other. But if it fits after Revelation 19:21, how can it not support Premil in that case? It for sure couldn't support Amil per that scenario.

 

[Douggg]

This thread is not too hard to follow if one factors in Premil vs Amil. Amils do not believe Zechariah 14:16 supports Premil. Premils tend to believe it does. It is then a question of, where does Zechariah 14:16 fit in relation to Revelation 19:21? If it fits before Revelation 19:21, it then doesn't support Premil one way or the other. But if it fits after Revelation 19:21, how can it not support Premil in that case? It for sure couldn't support Amil per that scenario.

If the objective of the thread is to prove Amil right over Premil - or Premil right over Amil - by proving when the Great White Throne judgement will take place - then you should state that in an easy-to-understand sentence, as the first sentence of the opening post.

 

[DavidPT]

Stop please, you are digging a bigger hole you caught yourself in by misapplying Scripture all over the Bible!

I strongly suggest that you take a break and read the article link about the Feast of the Tabernacle provided above.

Good night.

IOW, shoot them first then ask questions later. But instead of that mindset on your part, the first thing you could do before dismissing what I have proposed, is to show how what is recorded in Isaiah 60:11-22, that none of it is involving anything pertaining to what Revelation 21-22 is involving. Because, clearly, Isaiah 60:12 is pertaining to the era of time verse 11 and verses 13-22 are pertaining to.

 

[DavidPT]

​

Sadly, there are many people out there who have "read into" Zechariah 14:12-13 as a humanistic theory of a nuclear bomb AS IF that is straight from the mouth of God and the only thing that would qualify as fulfillment. Let's check with verse again:

Zec 14:12
(12) And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

It says "plague" not a nuclear blast. See that word plague? That means we should define plagues by scripture, not by current events or televangelist prognosticators. We don't privately interpret a plague to mean a nuclear blast. If God had wanted to say great massive nuclear explosion created spectacular damage, He would have said that. For He knows "the end from the beginning." We also know the Biblical principle that the scriptures are not subject to our own private interpretation. If we're going to privately interpret flesh consuming away while people stand upon their feet, why not God bringing the Sun closer towards the earth to do it? I mean, if we're just going to guess at it. Why not have fire from heaven coming down and doing it? Why not have aliens from another planet coming with laser ray guns to do it? Why not have acid rain get so bad that it eats our flesh away? Why? Because the scriptures are not subject to our imaginations, fears, theories, myths, or private interpretations. It is subject only to itself. Therefore, scripture is its own interpreter and its own dictionary which is why we need to find his interpretation right in the Scripture, not world news or Popular Science magazine. Thus it will be plagues as defined in God's Word, not as defined by the movie, "late great planet earth" or sundry authors. We define the loss of eyes as illustrated in God's Word, not by man's ideas of earthly blinding. Selah! We then see the loss of tongue (language) or speech as defined in God's word, not as defined by man's "vivid" imagination. Selah!

Okay now, someone probably wondered what does Zechariah 14:12 actually talk about? I will give some hints so hopefully, people will research more for themselves with Scripture. The verse is talking about the fall of the unfaithful Old Testament congregation at the Cross where the people of the prince (unsaved Jews) were coming against Christ, will be burned with fire as judgment (not literally) where they no longer see the truth (eyes consume away) and their tongue has been taken away so that they cannot speak on the behalf of the kingdom anymore for their rejection of Messiah the Prince. This is why the blindness in part is happening to Israel and famine of hearing the Word of God because their tongues have been consumed. However, during the New Testament, there are many repentant Jews who heard the Gospel and repent. That is when their eyes will be restored and receive the power of the Holy Spirit to preach Gospel, just like the Gentiles! The rest of the Jews unfortunately will still be in blindness as they still are today.



Hope that helps

Hope you are not wrongly assuming things about what I believe in regards to verse 12. While there might be some who tend to think that could involve man-made nuclear weapons, I'm not one that believes that. It clearly states in that verse that it is the Lord, not man, striking those who come against Jerusalem with these plagues. Since when does the Lord have man-made nukes as a part of his arsenal? He doesn't. Therefore, it is similar to when the Lord out of heaven rained fire and brimstone down on those involving Genesis 19.Thus no man-made nuke weapons involved.

 

[Douggg]

Except I am me and you are you. The way you might go about things might not be the way I go about things. I tend to post things in real time. Meaning, for example, what I ended up posting in post #2 didn't come to mind during when I initially typed up the OP in post #1.

I think you knew what you were wanting to prove before you decided to start the thread. But you did not communicate the objective of the thread at the beginning of your opening post.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Hope you are not wrongly assuming things about what I believe in regards to verse 12. While there might be some who tend to think that could involve man-made nuclear weapons, I'm not one that believes that. It clearly states in that verse that it is the Lord, not man, striking those who come against Jerusalem with these plagues. Since when does the Lord have man-made nukes as a part of his arsenal? He doesn't. Therefore, it is similar to when the Lord out of heaven rained fire and brimstone down on those involving Genesis 19.Thus no man-made nuke weapons involved.

Sigh….

Think! Why did God specifically mentioned about the eyes and tongues that he’ll strike with the plague in zechariah 14:12?? He didn’t say anything about the eyes and tongues of men, women and children in the city of Sodom in Gen 19 if you believe God will send the same literal fires and brimestones again that will knock eyes out of sockets in Zechariah 14?! You’re not being logical here.

I can see that you lacks spiritual understanding what God specific about things in his prophecies for a reason!

Likewise with the Egypt’s plagues. Why did God said things like frogs will be found in the stove and kneadingtroughs? Why did God mentioned the stove and kneadingtroughs? It is for a reason that these has spiritual significance for our understanding. What do you think the oven and kneadingtroughs refers to? Why does the frogs jump into these? Think and find out about these with the rest of Scripture to find His interpretations, can you?? Same thing with eyes and tongues in Zechariah 14! What can the plague cause the eyes and tongues to be consumed?! What is the spiritual signification on this? I just gave you some hint? Do your homework!

 

[RandyPNW]

The title of the thread is what the OP is in regards to. One account gives the impression there are no survivors. The other account indicates there are survivors. This is not a problem if Zechariah 14:16 is meaning before Revelation 19:21. But it is a problem if Zechariah 14:16 is meaning after Revelation 19:21. The reason why is because Zechariah 14:16-19 involves punishments for failing to keep the feast of tabernacles, meaning after they are spared, not before they are spared. And if meaning after the 2nd coming, how does one explain these punishments if all the lost are in the LOF once Christ returns, thus no one but the saved remaining? Thus the great white throne judgment is fulfilled when Christ returns.

I think the problem is when we take biblical statements of seeming universal judgments and apply them exhaustively. It's like saying, in regard to New York City, "The world is exploding, and everybody is dying. Elements are dissolving, the entire city is on fire."

In reality, the context is describing the general condition of the city, and not stating, in an exhaustive sense, that every last building will be flattened, than the city will literally disappear, and that every person will literally die.

No, it is a statement of apocalyptic destruction, bringing definitive destruction to a sinful city. But it certainly does not have to mean that the city and all people disappear simply because it says that "the elements are dissolved." The elements dissolve when there is a nuclear bomb, or even when fire reduces a wood structure to ash.

We tend to conflate biblical portraits of comprehensive judgment with the modern scientific view of physical annihilation, making it more than judgment--we make it into the end of the universe itself--something that God said would never happen.

He only suggested the universe would pass, from a worldly administration to a godly administration. The earth itself would exist forever after undergoing certain changes in the universe.

Except after the GWTJ there couldn't possibly be anyone still being punished or threatened with punishments, therefore, the era of time Zechariah 14:16-19 is involving has to be meaning before the GWTJ, not after it. And keeping in mind, that Zechariah 14:16-19 is involving the same era of time Zechariah 14:6-11 is involving.

It's really a question of, what era of time is Zechariah 14:6-11 involving? Where I already went over some of that in post #2.

I believe the following is Armageddon. Armageddon may be the approach to Jerusalem, in which Eastern nations gather and are destroyed along with the Antichristian Kingdom. It is the time of Christ's Return. The Lord here returns to the Mt. of Olives, where Jesus had delivered the Olivet Discourse, describing the Jewish fate in the NT era up until his return in glory. Zechariah now is describing the time of Israel's recovery, after being persecuted and attacked by the nations.

Zech 14.1 A day of the Lord is coming, Jerusalem, when your possessions will be plundered and divided up within your very walls.
2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. 5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.

The following describes the Millennial Age, when godly nations will be blessed and ungodly nations will be forced to conform to God's Kingdom n earth.

6 On that day there will be neither sunlight nor cold, frosty darkness. 7 It will be a unique day—a day known only to the Lord—with no distinction between day and night. When evening comes, there will be light.
8 On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it east to the Dead Sea and half of it west to the Mediterranean Sea, in summer and in winter.
9 The Lord will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one Lord, and his name the only name.
10 The whole land, from Geba to Rimmon, south of Jerusalem, will become like the Arabah. But Jerusalem will be raised up high from the Benjamin Gate to the site of the First Gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the royal winepresses, and will remain in its place. 11 It will be inhabited; never again will it be destroyed. Jerusalem will be secure.

 

[DavidPT]

Zechariah chapter 14 clearly connects the feast of Tabernacles with the prophesied kingdom of Christ, and how living waters would only be in Jerusalem, and all the people would have to go there. Obviously, this is not to say that literally every believer in the world has to go to the Middle East and visit physical city of Jerusalem every year. That's not how the gospel works.

There are many theologians who have misunderstood the prophecy of Zechariah 14, and are confused concerning the feast of Tabernacles mentioned there. This is somewhat understandable, because for most people, Zechariah chapter 14 is one of the most difficult chapters in the Bible which requires the Spirit of Christ (wisdom - spiritual discernment) to understand what God is really talking about here. When we read there about the coming of Christ, when living waters would go out from Jerusalem, and the Lord is King over the whole earth, like you, many look at this as something future. But this is speaking of Christ's first advent, and it was fulfilled at the cross. He "IS" the Living water (Holy Spirit) and He is the King of kings and Lord of lords. That's all accomplished! But because there are some verses which are (even to some seasoned veterans of scripture) quite difficult to understand, many theologians have concluded that this has to be a future event. Nevertheless, the fact is, Jerusalem "is" dwelling safely Now, because the Jerusalem that is in view there is NOT a literal city, but the city spoken of in Isaiah chapter 40 where it says, "Comfort ye Jerusalem, thy warfare is accomplished." That's not a physical or literal holy city in the middle east, that is the body of believers which makes up of spiritual Jerusalem! And it's not talking about literal earthly warfare there, it's talking about spiritual warfare finished. In other words, the saints are comforted and made safe in this city, when they drink of the living waters of Christ and make peace with God. Get it? That is when their warfare with Him is accomplished or finished. It has nothing to do with literal battles in Jerusalem that you assumed of. And because many theologians do not fully understand how God uses metaphors to paint spiritual pictures, they often go off in the wrong direction looking for truth. The Prince of peace is Him who has brought that peace and safety to Jerusalem. Not to a literal city that sits upon a pile of dirt, but to a spiritual city. When false prophets claim peace and safety for literal cities, they prophesy lies. For there is neither peace nor safety in earthly cities, earthly kingdoms, earthly treaties or covenants. Only in the true Holy City of God is there true peace and true safety. The camp of the saints is now the beloved Holy City that dwells safely BECAUSE Christ has bound Satan, and delivered His People from his house of bondage. And this is the peace that the Prince of Peace brought to comfort the city. Zechariah 14 in like manner uses symbolic language to demonstrate spiritual truths!




Again you are looking at things with the carnal mind. The living waters of verse 8 is HOLY SPIRIT that comes out of Jerusalem. Half of it go back to the former sea which covers the Saints of the Old Testament period (before the Cross). Half of it go into the hinder sea which covers the Saints of the New Testament period (after the Cross) that we DRINK! The Lord has established a kingdom at the Cross. How? The Old Testament congregation fell along with His Death, and in three days, He rebuilt it, this time with the New Testament congregation. You need to understand who Jersualem really is first. It is not literal city nor literal water!


JErsualem was NOT safe BEFORE Satan was bound! But now she is dwell safely because Christ has bound Satan at the Cross. That is why the New Testament congregation is dwelling safely with believers for the past 2,000 years. Haven't you read in Ezekiel 38 where God said Gog and Magog will attack the city that is now safely?

Eze 38:8-12
(8) After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.
(9) Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.
(10) Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought:
(11) And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,
(12) To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.

This is talking about the congregation of Israel that once fought God but is brought back from war and it has accomplished! She is now gathered out of many people from nations where they are now dwelling safely... all of them! This is a New Testament congregation! They observe the feast of Tabernacles during that time because Satan was bound since the Cross. BUT after all Israel has been sealed, in the end, God will release Satan out of a bottomless pit where he will think he can easily attack the New Testament congregation with his lying signs and wonders BECAUSE he can see that God no longer protects His unfaithful congregation. She no longer walled villages. They no longer have walls. She no longer has bars and gates. His spiritual protection is gone because people of the congregation no longer want God and do whatever they want. Because of this, God gathers (hook in their mouths) Satan and his army of false prophets and christs into New Testament congregation to deceive those within as a judgment. This is what the battle of Gog and Magog (Armaeggdeon) actually looks like! It is a SPIRITUAL WAR! Not a physical war between Russia and the nation Israel that you may think of! One needs to smell and drink spiritual coffee to understand this!



Incorrect. nothing to do with physical buildings or cities in 70AD.



It is all men with spirit of antichrist who rules (sit) in the Temple of God (New Testament congregation). And yes this must take place BEFORE Christ returns.



No, Christ has already become king over all the Earth and has established his kingdom through the Church with His resurrection.



Second Coming.



Preterists do not know what they talk about. They really can't explain the "last trump" with their flawed 70AD doctrine anyway.



This is when the established Kingdom of God has been realized at the second coming. This will mark the end of men's governments and kingdoms when Christ returns.

The way you're trying to understand some of Zechariah 14 can't be the correct way to understand it because verse 12 proves you can't be correct. Those in verses 16-19 are meaning the ones who are still remaining after God has smitten those who are coming against Jerusalem,
with the plague recorded in that verse. Therefore, until verse 12 is fulfilled first, verses 16-19 are not relevant in the meantime, and that verses 16-19 are involving the era of time verses 6-11 is involving.

How can verses 6-11 be involving the past 2000 years if it is not even meaning until after verse 12 is fulfilled first? You try and get around verse 12 by proposing nonsense in regards to it. That it should be taken in a spiritual sense not involving the 2nd coming. As if when the 2nd coming occurs, God is not going to do to anyone what verse 12 records.

Yet we see in Revelation 19:21 that He destroys the lost at His appearing, unless you want to propose Revelation 19:21 is not even involving His 2nd coming, and that it too should be applied spiritually, thus one shouldn't take it to literally mean anyone is actually slain, as in a loss of life, one should take it to mean how you are applying verse 12. Except how you are trying to apply verse 12 makes nonsense out of that verse, not sense out of it instead. Keeping in mind that verses 6-11 logically follow after the fulfillment of verse 12, and that verse 12 hasn't even been fulfilled yet, in any sense.

Once again, in Zechariah 14, verse 6-11 can't come to pass until after verse 12 has come to pass first. Clearly, what is recorded in verse 12 has not come to pass in any sense as of yet. And since verses 16-19 are involving the era of time verses 6-11 are involving, verses 16-19 can't fit anything in this present age unless one can prove that verse 12 has already been fulfilled. Good luck anyone proving something nonsensical, that verse 12 has somehow, some way, already been fulfilled.