Revelation 12 walk through

[Douggg]

I will walk through Revelation 12, explaining the verses. Follow along with your bible reading each verse as I explain the meaning thereof.

Revelation 12:1-5 is a vision John saw of Jesus being born to the woman (Israel) and Satan's attempt to have Jesus killed as soon as he was born. Which historically happened when Herod ordered all the children under the age of 2 be killed.

Verse 5 is Jesus born and caught up to God and to God's throne. Destined to rule the nations with a rod of iron.

Revelation 12:6 jumps to the end times, when Israel, the woman, has returned to the land, but still in unbelief that Jesus is the messiah. And for 1260 days, Israel will be fed the Word of God - by the two witnesses, of Revelation 11:3, those 1260 days.
`
Revelation 12:7-9 after the 1260 days, there will be a war in the second heaven which Satan and his angels will be cast down to earth.

Revelation 12:10 the Jews at that time finally turn to Jesus and the gospel of salvation. Satan will have been accusing them of their unbelief for the 1260 days that the Jews will mistakenly think the Antichrist is their messiah

Revelation 12:11 the Jews will overcome all Satan's accusations by believing upon the blood of the Lamb as atonement for their sins. And the Jews will testify about Jesus and the gospel of salvation. Even though many will be killed for their testimony.

Revelation 12:12 because Satan has been cast down to earth with just a short time left to his power, them in heaven rejoice about his coming demise. But to them on earth, Satan's wrath at being cast down will be the third woe to the inhabiters of earth as said in Revelation 8:13.

Revelation 12:13 Satan will take his wrath out on Israel and begin to persecute Israel.

Revelation 12:14 The Jews in Judea will flee into the mountains when they see the abomination of desolation statue image set up and indwelt by Satan. There in the wilderness, the Jews will be protected for the remaining time/times/half time that Satan will have left.

Revelation 12:15 Satan will make attempts to destroy the Jews in their mountains sanctuary.

Revelation 12:16 But God will supernaturally thwart all attempts by Satan to persecute the Jews who had fled into the mountains.

Revelation 12:17 Satan, not able to get to the Jews in the mountains, will persecute the remaining Jews who did not flee to the mountains right away, as Jesus told them to do in Matthew 24:15-21. Those Jews who Satan will have access to persecute, Jesus will rescue when Jesus returns to Jerusalem in Zechariah 14.

 

[RandyPNW]

I will walk through Revelation 12, explaining the verses. Follow along with your bible reading each verse as I explain the meaning thereof.

Revelation 12:1-5 is a vision John saw of Jesus being born to the woman (Israel) and Satan's attempt to have Jesus killed as soon as he was born. Which historically happened when Herod ordered all the children under the age of 2 be killed.

Verse 5 is Jesus born and caught up to God and to God's throne. Destined to rule the nations with a rod of iron.

Revelation 12:6 jumps to the end times, when Israel, the woman, has returned to the land, but still in unbelief that Jesus is the messiah. And for 1260 days, Israel will be fed the Word of God - by the two witnesses, of Revelation 11:3, those 1260 days.
`
Revelation 12:7-9 after the 1260 days, there will be a war in the second heaven which Satan and his angels will be cast down to earth.

Revelation 12:10 the Jews at that time finally turn to Jesus and the gospel of salvation. Satan will have been accusing them of their unbelief for the 1260 days that the Jews will mistakenly think the Antichrist is their messiah

Revelation 12:11 the Jews will overcome all Satan's accusations by believing upon the blood of the Lamb as atonement for their sins. And the Jews will testify about Jesus and the gospel of salvation. Even though many will be killed for their testimony.

Revelation 12:12 because Satan has been cast down to earth with just a short time left to his power, them in heaven rejoice about his coming demise. But to them on earth, Satan's wrath at being cast down will be the third woe to the inhabiters of earth as said in Revelation 8:13.

Revelation 12:13 Satan will take his wrath out on Israel and begin to persecute Israel.

Revelation 12:14 The Jews in Judea will flee into the mountains when they see the abomination of desolation statue image set up and indwelt by Satan. There in the wilderness, the Jews will be protected for the remaining time/times/half time that Satan will have left.

Revelation 12:15 Satan will make attempts to destroy the Jews in their mountains sanctuary.

Revelation 12:16 But God will supernaturally thwart all attempts by Satan to persecute the Jews who had fled into the mountains.

Revelation 12:17 Satan, not able to get to the Jews in the mountains, will persecute the remaining Jews who did not flee to the mountains right away, as Jesus told them to do in Matthew 24:15-21. Those Jews who Satan will have access to persecute, Jesus will rescue when Jesus returns to Jerusalem in Zechariah 14.

I don't know--I can't say that what I read in Rev 12 is the same as what you're explaining it to be? That being said, I've never felt comfortable interpreting it myself, so, I don't know.

I tend to think that in the present age, any talk about Israel really has to do with a small Christian remnant of Jews now, with the nation getting both politically and spiritually saved after Jesus' Return.

I agree that the man-child is Jesus in history, at his 1st Coming. The battle between God's angels and Satan's angels likely is a perennial battle to ensure God's will is done and Israel is preserved, despite the liberties being given, in measure, to Satan' right to rebel. I don't know that it's a specific time, though it appears this battle rages just before the rise of Antichrist.

But it's a good subject. I just can't say I fully understand it. This battle between God's angels and Satan's angels may have a parallel with Dan 12.1.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Women in prophecy represents the church, not literal Israel. There are two women in Revelation, the harlot (apostate church) and the women clothed in light, or God's righteousness, His true people or church

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her,

In God's church, it not literal Israel, it's those with faith grafted in.

Rom 9:6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed

Gal 2:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

In God's church God's people keep God's commandments (His unedited version Exo 20:6 Exo 31:18)
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

And what the battle is about our worship. Whoever we obey is who we serve Rom 6:16

Why the devil in angry with the women (church) - the remnant or the small remainder of the original as seen in Rev 12:17 because they keep God's commandments - His version Exo 20:6 Exo 31:18 and testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman (church), and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

What I love about the Book of Revelation while it is highly symbolic, most of what it means can be found throughout the Bible, so we do not need to interpret it ourselves, we can let God's word do so.

Revelation is not meant to be of private interpretation

2 Peter 1: 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private [a]interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but [b]holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

Pro 3:5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding;
6 In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He shall direct your paths.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I will walk through Revelation 12, explaining the verses. Follow along with your bible reading each verse as I explain the meaning thereof.

Revelation 12:1-5 is a vision John saw of Jesus being born to the woman (Israel) and Satan's attempt to have Jesus killed as soon as he was born. Which historically happened when Herod ordered all the children under the age of 2 be killed.

Verse 5 is Jesus born and caught up to God and to God's throne. Destined to rule the nations with a rod of iron.

Revelation 12:6 jumps to the end times, when Israel, the woman, has returned to the land, but still in unbelief that Jesus is the messiah. And for 1260 days, Israel will be fed the Word of God - by the two witnesses, of Revelation 11:3, those 1260 days.
`
Revelation 12:7-9 after the 1260 days, there will be a war in the second heaven which Satan and his angels will be cast down to earth.

Revelation 12:10 the Jews at that time finally turn to Jesus and the gospel of salvation. Satan will have been accusing them of their unbelief for the 1260 days that the Jews will mistakenly think the Antichrist is their messiah

Revelation 12:11 the Jews will overcome all Satan's accusations by believing upon the blood of the Lamb as atonement for their sins. And the Jews will testify about Jesus and the gospel of salvation. Even though many will be killed for their testimony.

Revelation 12:12 because Satan has been cast down to earth with just a short time left to his power, them in heaven rejoice about his coming demise. But to them on earth, Satan's wrath at being cast down will be the third woe to the inhabiters of earth as said in Revelation 8:13.

Revelation 12:13 Satan will take his wrath out on Israel and begin to persecute Israel.

Revelation 12:14 The Jews in Judea will flee into the mountains when they see the abomination of desolation statue image set up and indwelt by Satan. There in the wilderness, the Jews will be protected for the remaining time/times/half time that Satan will have left.

Revelation 12:15 Satan will make attempts to destroy the Jews in their mountains sanctuary.

Revelation 12:16 But God will supernaturally thwart all attempts by Satan to persecute the Jews who had fled into the mountains.

Revelation 12:17 Satan, not able to get to the Jews in the mountains, will persecute the remaining Jews who did not flee to the mountains right away, as Jesus told them to do in Matthew 24:15-21. Those Jews who Satan will have access to persecute, Jesus will rescue when Jesus returns to Jerusalem in Zechariah 14.

Or this ......

Revelation is a highly symbolic piece of apocalyptic writing. Identifying its many characters is very important or it's meaning will be lost .
Yes the woman in chapter 12 is Israel who is hidden in the wilderness while Jesus Christ of Nazareth walks the earth, spreads His Gospel, fulfilling the Prophets and preparing His Apostles to spread the Good News. However, only a remnant of Israel believed but, one must continue to read on....
Revelation 17 then reveals that eventually this woman, in the wilderness, becomes the "harlot" clothes in red and purple. We know this because she is identify multiple times in the Old Testament including Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and Hosea. This metaphor of a harlot describes Israel's spiritual unfaithfulness to God through idolatry and alliances with foreign nations. She will ultimately be destroyed by the very beast she rides in 70AD by the destruction of Jerusalem and her temple.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Or this ......

Revelation is a highly symbolic piece of apocalyptic writing. Identifying its many characters is very important or it's meaning will be lost .
Yes the woman in chapter 12 is Israel who is hidden in the wilderness while Jesus Christ of Nazareth walks the earth, spreads His Gospel, fulfilling the Prophets and preparing His Apostles to spread the Good News. However, only a remnant of Israel believed but, one must continue to read on....
Revelation 17 then reveals that eventually this woman, in the wilderness, becomes the "harlot" clothes in red and purple. We know this because she is identify multiple times in the Old Testament including Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and Hosea. This metaphor of a harlot describes Israel's spiritual unfaithfulness to God through idolatry and alliances with foreign nations. She will ultimately be destroyed by the very beast she rides in 70AD by the destruction of Jerusalem and her temple.

According to the Scripture God's remnant church, who keeps the commandments of God and faith and testimony of Jesus Christ stays faithful until the very end so again this is not about literal Israel as that is done away in the NC as its those grafted in through faith. So the women (church) clothed in Christ's rightlessness, is not the Harlot in Revelation. It a matter of us being faithful to God, the way He said depends on which church we end up in. Again, whoever we obey is who we serve Rom 6:16 so we being faithful to God and keeping His commandments the way He wrote, His Testimony or following the harlot or mother church who changed God's times and laws Dan 7:25 that her daughters (most protestant churches) all followed

God does have a people who overcomes and stays faithful until the very end

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman (church), and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


Rev 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

Compared to the next verse, the unfaithful (adulteress Harlot) Rev 22:15 1 John 2:4 Mat 7:21-23

 

[Maria Billingsley]

So the church clothed in Christ's rightlessness, is not the Harlot in Revelation

Of course not! The church is not unrepentant Israel.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Of course not! The church is not unrepentant Israel.

There is no literal Israel in God's church today, just those grafted in through faith. Israel is just a name God gave to represent His church in Scripture. There was a literal nation of Israel, but its not literal Israel today, not Jew or Greak, just those grafted in by faith.

Rom 9:6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed

Gal 2:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

You said the women in light clothed with Christ righteousness turns into the Harlot, but its not what the Scriptures teach, God has a faithful church clothed in His righteousness that remains faithful until the end.


Rev 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

There is no literal Israel in God's church today, just those grafted in through faith. Israel is just a name God gave to represent His church in Scripture. There was a literal nation of Israel, but its not literal Israel today, not Jew or Greak, just those grafted in by faith.

Rom 9:6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed

Gal 2:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

You said the women in light clothed with Christ righteousness turns into the Harlot, but its not what the Scriptures teach, God has a faithful church clothed in His righteousness that remains faithful until the end.


Rev 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

I understand we have a different theological lens. Thanks for sharing !

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I understand we have a different theological lens. Thanks for sharing !

I provided Scriptures to support my beliefs, you are free to do so to support your theory as well.

God bless!

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I provided Scriptures to support my beliefs, you are free to do so to support your theory as well.

God bless!

I already did. I do not hold to the Dispensational Fututist view so we are coming from entirely different perspectives which is why I started my post with " or this".

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I already did. I do not hold to the Dispensational Fututist view so we are coming from entirely different perspectives which is why I started my post with " or this".

Sorry, I didn't see any Scripture in your posts, perhaps I just missed it. I do not hold to Dispensational Fututist either.

My view on Daniel and Revelation is the historicist view, its what most of the reformers also believed.

What is now, what was then and what is to come....

Rev 1:4 John, to the seven churches which are in Asia:

Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I will walk through Revelation 12, explaining the verses. Follow along with your bible reading each verse as I explain the meaning thereof.

Revelation 12:1-5 is a vision John saw of Jesus being born to the woman (Israel) and Satan's attempt to have Jesus killed as soon as he was born. Which historically happened when Herod ordered all the children under the age of 2 be killed.

Verse 5 is Jesus born and caught up to God and to God's throne. Destined to rule the nations with a rod of iron.

Revelation 12:6 jumps to the end times, when Israel, the woman, has returned to the land, but still in unbelief that Jesus is the messiah. And for 1260 days, Israel will be fed the Word of God - by the two witnesses, of Revelation 11:3, those 1260 days.
`
Revelation 12:7-9 after the 1260 days, there will be a war in the second heaven which Satan and his angels will be cast down to earth.

Revelation 12:10 the Jews at that time finally turn to Jesus and the gospel of salvation. Satan will have been accusing them of their unbelief for the 1260 days that the Jews will mistakenly think the Antichrist is their messiah

Revelation 12:11 the Jews will overcome all Satan's accusations by believing upon the blood of the Lamb as atonement for their sins. And the Jews will testify about Jesus and the gospel of salvation. Even though many will be killed for their testimony.

Revelation 12:12 because Satan has been cast down to earth with just a short time left to his power, them in heaven rejoice about his coming demise. But to them on earth, Satan's wrath at being cast down will be the third woe to the inhabiters of earth as said in Revelation 8:13.

Revelation 12:13 Satan will take his wrath out on Israel and begin to persecute Israel.

Revelation 12:14 The Jews in Judea will flee into the mountains when they see the abomination of desolation statue image set up and indwelt by Satan. There in the wilderness, the Jews will be protected for the remaining time/times/half time that Satan will have left.

Revelation 12:15 Satan will make attempts to destroy the Jews in their mountains sanctuary.

Revelation 12:16 But God will supernaturally thwart all attempts by Satan to persecute the Jews who had fled into the mountains.

Revelation 12:17 Satan, not able to get to the Jews in the mountains, will persecute the remaining Jews who did not flee to the mountains right away, as Jesus told them to do in Matthew 24:15-21. Those Jews who Satan will have access to persecute, Jesus will rescue when Jesus returns to Jerusalem in Zechariah 14.

There are two things I'd like to point out in relation to Revelation 12 that I think many miss.

First, Revelation 12:10 indicates that, before being cast out of heaven, Satan is accusing believers before God day and night. This implies that when he is cast out of heaven, he can no longer accuse believers before God day and night since he is not allowed entry into heaven any longer.

So, how do we determine the timing of this event of Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven? By asking the following question. Is Satan accusing us before God in heaven now? The answer is no.

Romans 8:31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

Paul asked three questions here and the answer is the same to all three of them. He asked "If God is for us, who can be against us?", "who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen?" and "Who then is the one who condemns?". The answer to all three questions is "No one". Who will bring any charge/accusations against God's chosen? No one. Including Satan because he has been cast out of heaven.

The next thing to notice about Revelation 12 is that the only children of the woman that are referenced are Jesus Himself (Rev 12:5) and those "which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" (Rev 12:17), which is a description of born again believers who belong to Christ.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

So, the children of the woman are those who make up the church which has Jesus Christ as its cornerstone (Ephesians 2:19-22). The woman is not national Israel, it is spiritual Israel because her only children are those who are believers.

Romans 9:6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

Christians are the children of God and the children of the promise and are regarded as Abraham's offspring (see Galatians 3:26-29) and Christians are the ones "which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ". So, Revelation 12:17 refers to those who are in the church and we descend from spiritual Israel and descend spiritually from Abraham because of having faith like Abraham.

The book of Revelation is primarily about Jesus Christ and His church as well as the enemies of Jesus Christ and His church. It's not about the nation of Israel. If it was, I would think it would have been addressed to churches in Israel, but it was not.

 

[RandyPNW]

First, Revelation 12:10 indicates that, before being cast out of heaven, Satan is accusing believers before God day and night. This implies that when he is cast out of heaven, he can no longer accuse believers before God day and night since he is not allowed entry into heaven any longer.

I don't think this follows at all. If Satan can accuse believers while in heaven he can also accuse believers outside of heaven. What is apparent to me is that Satan continuously accuses believers, wherever he is. That is who he is--the "accuser of the brethren."

So, how do we determine the timing of this event of Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven? By asking the following question. Is Satan accusing us before God in heaven now? The answer is no.

Of course Satan is still accusing us. The Apostles warned us to avoid condemnation, as it comes from the Evil One.

Romans 8:31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

You are now talking about God Himself, who neutralizes the ongoing accusing of the Evil One. Obviously, if we fail to close the door and trust in Christ, the Accuser can still get to us. What Paul is saying is that as long as we remain true to Christ and trust in his protection, no accusation can succeed in knocking us off of our position and Salvation.

The next thing to notice about Revelation 12 is that the only children of the woman that are referenced are Jesus Himself (Rev 12:5) and those "which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" (Rev 12:17), which is a description of born again believers who belong to Christ.

True. The children of the Woman are referencing those who believe in Christ. But it does not describe who the Woman is. She has 12 stars in her crown, indicating either the 12 tribes or the 12 apostles. I tend to think they represent the 12 Jewish Apostles, indicating that the Woman was Israel who conceived them as spiritual children. The rest of her children would likely be the product of what those apostles accomplished among the nations--the International Church.

So, the children of the woman are those who make up the church which has Jesus Christ as its cornerstone (Ephesians 2:19-22). The woman is not national Israel, it is spiritual Israel because her only children are those who are believers.

National Israel gave birth to the 12 Apostles and to Christ himself. And through their ministry the other children came into being. The Woman is, in my view, Israel. And though she has gone into ages of great tribulation and diaspora, she has produced, via the Apostles, millions of other children--other than Jewish children.

Romans 9:6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

This is saying that the true children of Israel are the faithful ones who remain true to their God. These refer to Jewish believers--not Gentile believers. This is not redefining "Israel," but rather, pointing out what Israel is intended to become, namely faithful Israelis.

It's sad when Christians try to redefine the "Israel" of the Bible, simply because Israel fell. A good part of the Biblical Prophets' writings were devoting to claiming God's promises to Israel are good and will never be revoked. The "Woman" will, I believe, continue to exist, if only through a Christian remnant today. But the fact the whole nation will be politically restored is on the front pages of our newspapers.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I don't think this follows at all. If Satan can accuse believers while in heaven he can also accuse believers outside of heaven. What is apparent to me is that Satan continuously accuses believers, wherever he is. That is who he is--the "accuser of the brethren."

What is apparent to me is that you don't accept what Paul taught in Romans 8:31-34 which is that no one can be against us, make any charge/accusation against us or condemn us. Revelation 12:7-12 was fulfilled long ago because once Christ rose from the dead and ascended to heaven, there was no more access to heaven for Satan and his angels and there was no longer anything that Satan could accuse believers of because ours sins are covered by the blood of Christ.

Of course Satan is still accusing us. The Apostles warned us to avoid condemnation, as it comes from the Evil One.

You say Satan is still accusing us, but Paul said no one can make any charge/accusation against God's chosen. I'm going to side with Paul here.

You are now talking about God Himself, who neutralizes the ongoing accusing of the Evil One. Obviously, if we fail to close the door and trust in Christ, the Accuser can still get to us. What Paul is saying is that as long as we remain true to Christ and trust in his protection, no accusation can succeed in knocking us off of our position and Salvation.

We're talking about Revelation 12 here. It doesn't say anything there about Satan ever making accusations against unbelievers. Only believers. And that he did so before God day and night before he was cast out of heaven. Once Christ shed His blood on the cross and rose again then Satan had nothing he could accuse believers of anymore because our sins are covered by Christ's blood. His accusations were made before God. Without access to heaven any longer, he can no longer do that.

True. The children of the Woman are referencing those who believe in Christ. But it does not describe who the Woman is. She has 12 stars in her crown, indicating either the 12 tribes or the 12 apostles. I tend to think they represent the 12 Jewish Apostles, indicating that the Woman was Israel who conceived them as spiritual children. The rest of her children would likely be the product of what those apostles accomplished among the nations--the International Church.

National Israel gave birth to the 12 Apostles and to Christ himself. And through their ministry the other children came into being. The Woman is, in my view, Israel. And though she has gone into ages of great tribulation and diaspora, she has produced, via the Apostles, millions of other children--other than Jewish children.

Where does it indicate that the woman has any children besides Christ Himself (Rev 12:5) and those who have faith in Christ (Rev 12:17)? You are not going by what is actually indicated in the text. If the woman is national Israel then she also would have unbelieving children, but the text nowhere indicates as such.

This is saying that the true children of Israel are the faithful ones who remain true to their God. These refer to Jewish believers--not Gentile believers. This is not redefining "Israel," but rather, pointing out what Israel is intended to become, namely faithful Israelis.

You are apparently not reading the text very carefully.

Paul: "It is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children".

Randy: "These refer to Jewish believers, not Gentile believers".

You are making it about physical descent when Paul very clearly indicated that not all who are physically descended from Israel are Israel. So, the second Israel mentioned there has nothing to do with being physically descended from the nation of Israel. But, you contradict that by insisting they have to be Jewish and not Gentile. That contradicts what Paul was indicating there. He said "it is NOT the children by physical descent who are God's children". You are saying it IS the children by physical descent who are God's children and adding the condition that they are believers. But, Paul said that where physical nationality or physically descending from Abraham has nothing to do with being part of the second Israel. Instead, it has to do with being a child of God and a child of the promise. And those who are the children of God and of the promise and counted as Abraham's seed/offspring are Christians (Galatians 3:26-29).

It's sad when Christians try to redefine the "Israel" of the Bible,

It's sad when people like you misrepresent what others believe. I'm not redefining anything. National Israel is national Israel. I am NOT redefining it at all. I'm just not missing that Paul talked about two different Israels like you are. He differentiated between them in Romans 9:6-8. He spoke of an Israel that is made up of those who have been made a new creation in Christ in Galatians 6:15-16, so there is clearly one Israel that is spiritual in nature rather than physical. It is made up of the children of God who are the children of the promise and the spiritual seed of Abraham. Christians, in other words (Galatians 3:26-29).

 

[RandyPNW]

What is apparent to me is that you don't accept what Paul taught in Romans 8:31-34 which is that no one can be against us, make any charge/accusation against us or condemn us. Revelation 12:7-12 was fulfilled long ago because once Christ rose from the dead and ascended to heaven, there was no more access to heaven for Satan and his angels and there was no longer anything that Satan could accuse believers of because ours sins are covered by the blood of Christ.

I accept Paul's teaching that Christ provided an atonement for our sins, cancelling Satan's effort to have us removed from Heaven. He himself was kicked out of heaven, and I'm sure he wishes the same for us?

Again, having his attempt to have disqualify us neutralized does not mean that Satan does not continue to try to accuse us and oppose us in any way God lets him. We can easily see in the NT history that people continued to accuse God's People, which would be by the inspiration of Satan. We are told we can avoid the condemnation that comes from these accusations if we abide in Christ.

Rom 8.1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
1 John 3.20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.

You say Satan is still accusing us, but Paul said no one can make any charge/accusation against God's chosen. I'm going to side with Paul here.

It's not saying that no one is incapable of *trying* to condemn. Rather, it is saying that the attempt will fail with those who trust in Christ.

We're talking about Revelation 12 here. It doesn't say anything there about Satan ever making accusations against unbelievers. Only believers.

Nobody is saying otherwise. But we do know that Satan inspired the Egyptians to kill the Hebrew infants among their slaves. And as infants they were hardly believers yet! Satan wishes to stop Israel from prevailing until Christ returns to restore them. Satan opposed not just believers but God's word of prophecy as well!

And that he did so before God day and night before he was cast out of heaven. Once Christ shed His blood on the cross and rose again then Satan had nothing he could accuse believers of anymore because our sins are covered by Christ's blood. His accusations were made before God. Without access to heaven any longer, he can no longer do that.

This is not being said. He is cast out of heaven and loses his ability to prevent people from getting into Heaven. He is still able to oppose God on the earth, including persecuting and killing Christians. And undoubtedly he justifies this persecution by *accusing* them!

Where does it indicate that the woman has any children besides Christ Himself (Rev 12:5) and those who have faith in Christ (Rev 12:17)? You are not going by what is actually indicated in the text. If the woman is national Israel then she also would have unbelieving children, but the text nowhere indicates as such.

No, that is just your logic speaking. Israel is the Woman who in ancient times provided, by faith, the works that led to the birth of Christ and to the production of the 12 Apostles of Christ. They laid a foundation for spiritual children.

As such, the "Woman" is not fixed in time, but is representative of ideal believing Israel from ancient times. But in Rev 12 she is then viewed as existing in the wilderness during the Reign of Antichrist. The wilderness represents the desert-like experience of Israel coming out of Egypt. That is where the Hebrews were preserved until God could provide a home for them in Canaan.

In the endtimes, the Woman is represented, I think, by the small remnant, symbolized by the 144,000 believers in Christ. But her "other children" may represent the believers among the nations who also become children of Abraham (not "children of Israel").

You are apparently not reading the text very carefully.

Paul: "It is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children".

Randy: "These refer to Jewish believers, not Gentile believers".

I'm reading the text differently than you do. To me, this is not stating there are "two Israels," one strictly nominal and the other strictly spiritual. There is no such partition in what Paul is saying.

He is only stating that for Israel to be successful, they have to become believers in Christ. In speaking of "true Israel" he is not speaking of "another Israel," but only of those who live true to their heritage of faith.

So, Paul was clearly speaking of Jewish believers here. They are living true to their Jewish heritage, and thus represent "true Israel." It does not mean that those who are "untrue" in Israel are not truly Israel!

You are making it about physical descent when Paul very clearly indicated that not all who are physically descended from Israel are Israel.

No, I agree that being true to Israel is not a matter of simply being a racial Jew! It is about being both a racial Jew and being true to the faith of a Jew. That is what Paul was talking about.

He was not creating two Israels--one a physical Jew and the other a Christian of any ethnicity. Nor was he dividing Israel into purely physical Jews and spiritual Jews whose ethnicity was irrevelant. It was very much revelant to God's specific promise to Abraham that he have a biological posterity and a nation with his own DNA.

So, the second Israel mentioned there has nothing to do with being physically descended from the nation of Israel. But, you contradict that by insisting they have to be Jewish and not Gentile. That contradicts what Paul was indicating there. He said "it is NOT the children by physical descent who are God's children". You are saying it IS the children by physical descent who are God's children and adding the condition that they are believers. But, Paul said that where physical nationality or physically descending from Abraham has nothing to do with being part of the second Israel. Instead, it has to do with being a child of God and a child of the promise. And those who are the children of God and of the promise and counted as Abraham's seed/offspring are Christians (Galatians 3:26-29).

See above.

It's sad when people like you misrepresent what others believe. I'm not redefining anything.

You've redefined Israel when you say that their physical characteristics are no longer relevant. It's not either-or, but rather, both being physically Jewish and having Jewish faith in Christ.

Having physical characteristics of being Jewish is essential to fulfilling the promise God made to Abraham about creating for him a unique nation. Other nations are distinct but also promised to Abraham.

National Israel is national Israel. I am NOT redefining it at all. I'm just not missing that Paul talked about two different Israels like you are. He differentiated between them in Romans 9:6-8. He spoke of an Israel that is made up of those who have been made a new creation in Christ in Galatians 6:15-16, so there is clearly one Israel that is spiritual in nature rather than physical. It is made up of the children of God who are the children of the promise and the spiritual seed of Abraham. Christians, in other words (Galatians 3:26-29).

Yes, you are redefining the "Israel" of promise by claiming there is a completely separate "Spiritual Israel." The Spiritual Israel is the one Israel with the physical characteristics of Israel who become true when they put their faith in Christ and form a new nation centered on Christ. That will not fully take place until Christ returns.