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How do you see Rev 11:15-19?
DD
This was addressed to Advent truth in my other thread. But it needs its own topic so that one doesn't go astray.
How do you see Rev 11:15-19?
DD
Some initial thoughts:
Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever."
In what way did Jesus start to reign in 1844?
Rev 11:18 The nations raged, but your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear your name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth."
This mentions not just investigation but rewards. Now in our last conversation Jim said the dead are awarded eternal life--but don't realize it yet, being in the grave. But then what do you do with the destruction of the wicked?
The wicked are not even considered in the IJ, much less destroyed.
Rev 11:19 Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy h
ail.
There are several of these framing or introductory sanctuary scenes which give indicators of major sections,etc.
Rev 1:12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands,
Rev 1:13 and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest.
Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne,
Rev 8:4 and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel.
Rev 8:5 Then the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and threw it on the earth, and there were peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake.
Rev 11:19 Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.
Rev 15:8 and the sanctuary was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power, and no one could enter the sanctuary until the seven plagues of the seven angels were finished.
Some initial thoughts:
Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever."
In what way did Jesus start to reign in 1844?
Rev 11:18 The nations raged, but your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear your name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth."
This mentions not just investigation but rewards. Now in our last conversation Jim said the dead are awarded eternal life--but don't realize it yet, being in the grave. But then what do you do with the destruction of the wicked?
Rev 11:19 Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.
There are several of these framing or introductory sanctuary scenes which give indicators of major sections,etc.
Rev 1:12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands,
Rev 1:13 and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest.
Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne,
Rev 8:4 and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel.
Rev 8:5 Then the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and threw it on the earth, and there were peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake.
Rev 11:19 Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.
Rev 15:8 and the sanctuary was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power, and no one could enter the sanctuary until the seven plagues of the seven angels were finished.
p.s. I just read most of the "Jesus institute forum document written by Dr. Cottrell. A lot of it is directed at the leadership of the GC and the witch hunt mentality they used to fire some of the past pastors and teachers who have questioned the IJ. I have printed the whole thing off. I am not so sure about his conclusion of the start date of the 2300 days yet I'm going to have to go over that one a few more times. So far up to that point the man seems to be straight foward and objective about everything. His bias against the GC does show however. Can't blame him though if what he says is really true and factual. I'd like to check out the validity of what he's said.
I don't think you can apply the 1844 date to this text.
I am stating that the verses do not directly teach an IJ. The IJ does not have anything to do with the wicked.Surely you are not suggesting that the wicked are not/were not destroyed at various times in the past and even today. I think the primary question is if these set of texts have convincing apocalyptic/executive judgement themes. Clearly, I don't see the same kind of language that we normally see for that in other places in Revelations.
The point is that it is one in a series of such scenes. You must show what exactly they mean and how they relate to the text around them if you wish to use them as an evidence.This is true as the entire book seems to be coming to us from the sanctuary or from angels/elders around the throne of God. That does not lessen the connection of the sanctuary here being connected to the judgement of the dead etc.
I don't think you can apply the 1844 date to this text.
Hi Jim,
Here is a chiastic structure of the 7 sanctuary scenes of Revelation. I think it helps to understand the where everything is.
1.Rev 1:12-20 (2nd coming)---------------Court/Earth
2.---- Rev 4 and 5 (Inauguration)----------Sanctuary
3.-------Rev 8:2-6 (Intercession)----------HP
4.----------Rev 11:19 (Judgement)--------MHP
5.-------Rev 15:5-8 (Cessation)-----------HP
6.---- Rev 19:1-10 (Absence)-------------Sanctuary
7.Rev 21:1-22:5 (2nd coming)-------------Court/Earth
This is pre-advent judgment:
Rev 11
1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
The judgment starts with the church, the ministers first and then the believers.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
The wicked is not judged at this time.
Sounds a bit more like an allusion to the measuring in Ezekiel.
There are alot of measuring in Ezekiel. Did you have this verse in mind?
Ezekiel 43:10 Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.
The measuring represents judgment. This judgment takes place before the 7th and final trumpet sounded, vs 15.
Please say why you think it means judgment?
It looks like it was a picture of the restored temple that was to be the place where God would dwell with repentant Israel.
It's quite simple.
This is the measure of justice.
Psalm 29:9 The voice of the LORD maketh the hinds to calve, and discovereth the forests: and in his temple doth every one speak of his glory.
Every whit of the temple speaks of His glory. When you measure man's work against God's glory, man iniquity is shown.
Ezekiel 43:10 Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.
Isn't that what judgment is what about measure the work of man against the law?
In context it is more that they may be ashamed of their previous iniquity and state of deportation. Now they are to repent and take hold of God's plan.
Now what period do the 42 months correspond to with Adventists again?
In the context of Ezekiel, yes? It was to demonstrate the concept of judgment. You were an adventist pastor, you didn't know this?
It is of course your point to prove that it means judgment, as you initially asserted. Show me why it is judgment.Now what about in the context of Rev 11?
Are there two now? Please explain both.? That 42 months had finished prior to the pre-advent judgment.
What did you tell me? I failed to see.Didn't know what? I was the one who told you what it meant after you took it out of context.
I already did. Measure means judgment. Was it hard to see? Or maybe if that is true we are onto something?It is of course your point to prove that it means judgment, as you initially asserted. Show me why it is judgment.
Are there two now? Please explain both.
And are you sure it is not the same 42 months and this is simply not the investigative judgment?
And does the 42 months correlate to the measuring?
And if so what do these 42 months mean?
And does that mean the IJ will run 1260 years?
What did you tell me? I failed to see.
Out of context? Was the measuring in Ezk 43:10 not showing the iniquity of Israel?
I think here is where the miscommunication started
.In the context of Ezekiel, yes? It was to demonstrate the concept of judgment. You were an adventist pastor, you didn't know this?
Now what about in the context of Rev 11?
That is your assumption that measuring means judgment in every context. I think it does some places, but not in this particular reference in Ezekiel, and I am not sure in Rev. 11. That is why we must make sense of the literary allusion.I already did. Measure means judgment. Was it hard to see? Or maybe if that is true we are onto something?
You said THAT 42 nonths was already over by the IJ. Well the 42 months spoken of here are not over by the timing of the measuring, which is my point.Where did I say there are two 42 months?
Ok, I've never said Ezekiel 43:10 was pre-advent judgment. Rev 11:1,2 are.No. Nor was it an investigative judgment. It was showing what they could have in the restored land if they would follow God, which is what I said before. They wept because of their PAST iniquity which had been investigated long before and judged already. This was the restoration after the captivity. Judgment had taken place. Now we are into restoration.
Yes, you put it out of context without any of the preceding text and assumed it was about them being assessed.
I am asking you to make sense of the Ezekiel allusion. Why was it put there?
And even if you do prove it to be judgment, which for now you have just assumed, then you still have to show that it is the IJ as we have taught it.
And there you have a problem with the 42 months.
You said THAT 42 nonths was already over by the IJ. Well the 42 months spoken of here are not over by the timing of the measuring, which is my point.
So if they are the same 42 months then that kind of kills your argument.
Rev 11:1 Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told, "Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there,
Rev 11:2 but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months.
Rev 11:3 And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth."
Now were the 1260 days starting or ending? WILL GRANT authority.
The gentiles WILL trample the holy city. It is starting.
Your timing is way off.