Revelation 11:15-19--IJ?

[tall73]

How do you see Rev 11:15-19?

DD

This was addressed to Advent truth in my other thread. But it needs its own topic so that one doesn't go astray.

 

[tall73]

Some initial thoughts:

Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever."

In what way did Jesus start to reign in 1844?




Rev 11:18 The nations raged, but your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear your name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth."

This mentions not just investigation but rewards. Now in our last conversation Jim said the dead are awarded eternal life--but don't realize it yet, being in the grave. But then what do you do with the destruction of the wicked?

The wicked are not even considered in the IJ, much less destroyed.


Rev 11:19 Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.


There are several of these framing or introductory sanctuary scenes which give indicators of major sections,etc.


Rev 1:12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands,
Rev 1:13 and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest.


Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne,
Rev 8:4 and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel.
Rev 8:5 Then the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and threw it on the earth, and there were peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake.

Rev 11:19 Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.

Rev 15:8 and the sanctuary was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power, and no one could enter the sanctuary until the seven plagues of the seven angels were finished.

 

[digdeep]

Some initial thoughts:

Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever."

In what way did Jesus start to reign in 1844?

good question. Could it be part of the reconsecration spoken of in Dan 8:14.
Could this text, Dan 7:14, and Rev 12:10 be pointing to the same event?
Or could that event be after Jesus' Victory over sin or could it be the second coming? some verses that may shed light Matt 28:18, Eph 1:20-23 and 1Peter 3:22.

Rev 11:18 The nations raged, but your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear your name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth."

This mentions not just investigation but rewards. Now in our last conversation Jim said the dead are awarded eternal life--but don't realize it yet, being in the grave. But then what do you do with the destruction of the wicked?

The wicked are not even considered in the IJ, much less destroyed.

interesting point

Rev 11:19 Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy h

ail.


There are several of these framing or introductory sanctuary scenes which give indicators of major sections,etc.


Rev 1:12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands,
Rev 1:13 and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest.


Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne,
Rev 8:4 and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel.
Rev 8:5 Then the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and threw it on the earth, and there were peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake.

Rev 11:19 Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.

Rev 15:8 and the sanctuary was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power, and no one could enter the sanctuary until the seven plagues of the seven angels were finished.

And ... what?

DD

 

[Jimlarmore]

Some initial thoughts:

Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever."

In what way did Jesus start to reign in 1844?

I don't think you can apply the 1844 date to this text.

Rev 11:18 The nations raged, but your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear your name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth."

This mentions not just investigation but rewards. Now in our last conversation Jim said the dead are awarded eternal life--but don't realize it yet, being in the grave. But then what do you do with the destruction of the wicked?

Surely you are not suggesting that the wicked are not/were not destroyed at various times in the past and even today. I think the primary question is if these set of texts have convincing apocalyptic/executive judgement themes. Clearly, I don't see the same kind of language that we normally see for that in other places in Revelations.

Rev 11:19 Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.


There are several of these framing or introductory sanctuary scenes which give indicators of major sections,etc.


Rev 1:12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands,
Rev 1:13 and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest.


Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne,
Rev 8:4 and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel.
Rev 8:5 Then the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and threw it on the earth, and there were peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake.

Rev 11:19 Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.

Rev 15:8 and the sanctuary was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power, and no one could enter the sanctuary until the seven plagues of the seven angels were finished.

This is true as the entire book seems to be coming to us from the sanctuary or from angels/elders around the throne of God. That does not lessen the connection of the sanctuary here being connected to the judgement of the dead etc.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

p.s. I just read most of the "Jesus institute forum document written by Dr. Cottrell. A lot of it is directed at the leadership of the GC and the witch hunt mentality they used to fire some of the past pastors and teachers who have questioned the IJ. I have printed the whole thing off. I am not so sure about his conclusion of the start date of the 2300 days yet I'm going to have to go over that one a few more times. So far up to that point the man seems to be straight foward and objective about everything. His bias against the GC does show however. Can't blame him though if what he says is really true and factual. I'd like to check out the validity of what he's said.

 

[tall73]

p.s. I just read most of the "Jesus institute forum document written by Dr. Cottrell. A lot of it is directed at the leadership of the GC and the witch hunt mentality they used to fire some of the past pastors and teachers who have questioned the IJ. I have printed the whole thing off. I am not so sure about his conclusion of the start date of the 2300 days yet I'm going to have to go over that one a few more times. So far up to that point the man seems to be straight foward and objective about everything. His bias against the GC does show however. Can't blame him though if what he says is really true and factual. I'd like to check out the validity of what he's said.

ah yes, should have warned you. His tone is a bit bitter I think at times.

He is upset with Hasel, etc. And I don't think that he or Ford did a particularly great job of finding a solution to the Daniel prophecy either. But they do point out how the church has mishandled things and has not admitted problems with the traditional doctrine.

 

[tall73]

I don't think you can apply the 1844 date to this text.

Alright.

Surely you are not suggesting that the wicked are not/were not destroyed at various times in the past and even today. I think the primary question is if these set of texts have convincing apocalyptic/executive judgement themes. Clearly, I don't see the same kind of language that we normally see for that in other places in Revelations.

I am stating that the verses do not directly teach an IJ. The IJ does not have anything to do with the wicked.

Moreover, the rewarding of the righteous and the wicked here talked about occur at the same time when Jesus inherits the kingdom. That sounds more like the second coming than the IJ.

Certainly God has at various times punished the wicked. But his point seemed to be that these verses are describing and IJ. And that does not appear to be the case.

This is true as the entire book seems to be coming to us from the sanctuary or from angels/elders around the throne of God. That does not lessen the connection of the sanctuary here being connected to the judgement of the dead etc.

The point is that it is one in a series of such scenes. You must show what exactly they mean and how they relate to the text around them if you wish to use them as an evidence.

 

[OntheDL]

I don't think you can apply the 1844 date to this text.

Hi Jim,

Here is a chiastic structure of the 7 sanctuary scenes of Revelation. I think it helps to understand the where everything is.

1.Rev 1:12-20 (2nd coming)---------------Court/Earth

2.---- Rev 4 and 5 (Inauguration)----------Sanctuary
3.-------Rev 8:2-6 (Intercession)----------HP
4.----------Rev 11:19 (Judgement)--------MHP
5.-------Rev 15:5-8 (Cessation)-----------HP
6.---- Rev 19:1-10 (Absence)-------------Sanctuary

​

7.Rev 21:1-22:5 (2nd coming)-------------Court/Earth

​

​

 

[OntheDL]

This is pre-advent judgment:

Rev 11
1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

The judgment starts with the church, the ministers first and then the believers.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

The wicked is not judged at this time.

 

[Jimlarmore]

Hi Jim,

Here is a chiastic structure of the 7 sanctuary scenes of Revelation. I think it helps to understand the where everything is.

1.Rev 1:12-20 (2nd coming)---------------Court/Earth

2.---- Rev 4 and 5 (Inauguration)----------Sanctuary
3.-------Rev 8:2-6 (Intercession)----------HP
4.----------Rev 11:19 (Judgement)--------MHP
5.-------Rev 15:5-8 (Cessation)-----------HP
6.---- Rev 19:1-10 (Absence)-------------Sanctuary

7.Rev 21:1-22:5 (2nd coming)-------------Court/Earth

Thanks

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[tall73]

This is pre-advent judgment:

Rev 11
1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

The judgment starts with the church, the ministers first and then the believers.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

The wicked is not judged at this time.

Sounds a bit more like an allusion to the measuring in Ezekiel.

 

[OntheDL]

Sounds a bit more like an allusion to the measuring in Ezekiel.

There are alot of measuring in Ezekiel. Did you have this verse in mind?

Ezekiel 43:10 Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.

The measuring represents judgment. This judgment takes place before the 7th and final trumpet sounded, vs 15.

 

[tall73]

There are alot of measuring in Ezekiel. Did you have this verse in mind?

Ezekiel 43:10 Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.

The measuring represents judgment. This judgment takes place before the 7th and final trumpet sounded, vs 15.

Please say why you think it means judgment?

It looks like it was a picture of the restored temple that was to be the place where God would dwell with repentant Israel.


Here is the part I was referencing.


Eze 40:3 When he brought me there, behold, there was a man whose appearance was like bronze, with a linen cord and a measuring reed in his hand. And he was standing in the gateway.
Eze 40:4 And the man said to me, "Son of man, look with your eyes, and hear with your ears, and set your heart upon all that I shall show you, for you were brought here in order that I might show it to you. Declare all that you see to the house of Israel."
Eze 40:5 And behold, there was a wall all around the outside of the temple area, and the length of the measuring reed in the man's hand was six long cubits, each being a cubit and a handbreadth in length. So he measured the thickness of the wall, one reed; and the height, one reed.
Eze 40:6 Then he went into the gateway facing east, going up its steps, and measured the threshold of the gate, one reed deep.


----------

Rev 11:1 Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told, "Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there,



And here is the context of the portion you posted:

Eze 43:5 the Spirit lifted me up and brought me into the inner court; and behold, the glory of the LORD filled the temple.
Eze 43:6 While the man was standing beside me, I heard one speaking to me out of the temple,
Eze 43:7 and he said to me, "Son of man, this is the place of my throne and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the people of Israel forever. And the house of Israel shall no more defile my holy name, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoring and by the dead bodies of their kings at their high places,
Eze 43:8 by setting their threshold by my threshold and their doorposts beside my doorposts, with only a wall between me and them. They have defiled my holy name by their abominations that they have committed, so I have consumed them in my anger.
Eze 43:9 Now let them put away their whoring and the dead bodies of their kings far from me, and I will dwell in their midst forever.
Eze 43:10 "As for you, son of man, describe to the house of Israel the temple, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities; and they shall measure the plan.
Eze 43:11 And if they are ashamed of all that they have done, make known to them the design of the temple, its arrangement, its exits and its entrances, that is, its whole design; and make known to them as well all its statutes and its whole design and all its laws, and write it down in their sight, so that they may observe all its laws and all its statutes and carry them out.

The temple was a picture of what awaited them in a restored Israel if they were faithful and repented of their sin. God would dwell with them. The vision shows the return of the presence of God that had left due to sin previously.


But you have another problem if you are saying this is the IJ:

Rev 11:2 but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months.

What period do Adventists associate with the 42 months?

 

[OntheDL]

Please say why you think it means judgment?

It looks like it was a picture of the restored temple that was to be the place where God would dwell with repentant Israel.

It's quite simple.

This is the measure of justice.

Psalm 29:9 The voice of the LORD maketh the hinds to calve, and discovereth the forests: and in his temple doth every one speak of his glory.

Every whit of the temple speaks of His glory. When you measure man's work against God's glory, man iniquity is shown.

Ezekiel 43:10 Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.

Isn't that what judgment is what about measure the work of man against the law?

 

[tall73]

It's quite simple.

This is the measure of justice.

Psalm 29:9 The voice of the LORD maketh the hinds to calve, and discovereth the forests: and in his temple doth every one speak of his glory.

Every whit of the temple speaks of His glory. When you measure man's work against God's glory, man iniquity is shown.

Ezekiel 43:10 Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.

Isn't that what judgment is what about measure the work of man against the law?

In context it is more that they may be ashamed of their previous iniquity and state of deportation. Now they are to repent and take hold of God's plan.

Now what period do the 42 months correspond to with Adventists again?

 

[OntheDL]

In context it is more that they may be ashamed of their previous iniquity and state of deportation. Now they are to repent and take hold of God's plan.

In the context of Ezekiel, yes? It was to demonstrate the concept of judgment. You were an adventist pastor, you didn't know this?

Now what about in the context of Rev 11?

Now what period do the 42 months correspond to with Adventists again?

? That 42 months had finished prior to the pre-advent judgment.

 

[tall73]

In the context of Ezekiel, yes? It was to demonstrate the concept of judgment. You were an adventist pastor, you didn't know this?

Didn't know what? I was the one who told you what it meant after you took it out of context.

Now what about in the context of Rev 11?

It is of course your point to prove that it means judgment, as you initially asserted. Show me why it is judgment.

And show me how the allusions to Ezekiel are used there.

? That 42 months had finished prior to the pre-advent judgment.

Are there two now? Please explain both.

And are you sure it is not the same 42 months and this is simply not the investigative judgment?

And does the 42 months correlate to the measuring?

And if so what do these 42 months mean?

And does that mean the IJ will run 1260 years?

 

[OntheDL]

Didn't know what? I was the one who told you what it meant after you took it out of context.

What did you tell me? I failed to see.

Out of context? Was the measuring in Ezk 43:10 not showing the iniquity of Israel?

It is of course your point to prove that it means judgment, as you initially asserted. Show me why it is judgment.

I already did. Measure means judgment. Was it hard to see? Or maybe if that is true we are onto something?

Are there two now? Please explain both.

And are you sure it is not the same 42 months and this is simply not the investigative judgment?

And does the 42 months correlate to the measuring?

And if so what do these 42 months mean?

And does that mean the IJ will run 1260 years?

Where did I say there are two 42 months?

 

[tall73]

What did you tell me? I failed to see.

Out of context? Was the measuring in Ezk 43:10 not showing the iniquity of Israel?


I think here is where the miscommunication started

In the context of Ezekiel, yes? It was to demonstrate the concept of judgment. You were an adventist pastor, you didn't know this?

Now what about in the context of Rev 11?

.

I said it was about revealing what they could have through restoration...if they were grieved over their past iniquities for which they were now in captivity then they were to be shown the plan so they could go forward and keep it.

That is what fits the context. You then said in the context of Ezekiel, yes?

I was responding to that.

Yes. In the context of Ezekiel it was not about measuring the temple to judge the people. It was what would be theirs through restoration.

Now what I am noting is that there is a literary allusion here. We need to figure out why in order to assess the meaning of the passage.

Therefore the meaning in Ezekiel IS pivotal if this is indeed a literary allusion as John had it in mind when writing it.

Therefore to assess the meaning of Revelation 11 you need to know the meaning in Ezekiel.

Yes, you put it out of context without any of the preceding text and assumed it was about them being assessed. It was not

I already did. Measure means judgment. Was it hard to see? Or maybe if that is true we are onto something?

That is your assumption that measuring means judgment in every context. I think it does some places, but not in this particular reference in Ezekiel, and I am not sure in Rev. 11. That is why we must make sense of the literary allusion.

And even if you do prove it to be judgment, which for now you have just assumed, then you still have to show that it is the IJ as we have taught it.

And there you have a problem with the 42 months.

Where did I say there are two 42 months?

You said THAT 42 nonths was already over by the IJ. Well the 42 months spoken of here are not over by the timing of the measuring, which is my point.

So if they are the same 42 months then that kind of kills your argument.

Rev 11:1 Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told, "Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there,
Rev 11:2 but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months.
Rev 11:3 And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth."

Now were the 1260 days starting or ending? WILL GRANT authority.

The gentiles WILL trample the holy city. It is starting.

Your timing is way off.

 

[tall73]

Note I just made an edit to the preceding post after discovering where the communication broke down. If you are replying as I edited please review the new material.

 

[OntheDL]

No. Nor was it an investigative judgment. It was showing what they could have in the restored land if they would follow God, which is what I said before. They wept because of their PAST iniquity which had been investigated long before and judged already. This was the restoration after the captivity. Judgment had taken place. Now we are into restoration.

Yes, you put it out of context without any of the preceding text and assumed it was about them being assessed.

I am asking you to make sense of the Ezekiel allusion. Why was it put there?

And even if you do prove it to be judgment, which for now you have just assumed, then you still have to show that it is the IJ as we have taught it.

Ok, I've never said Ezekiel 43:10 was pre-advent judgment. Rev 11:1,2 are.

And there you have a problem with the 42 months.

You said THAT 42 nonths was already over by the IJ. Well the 42 months spoken of here are not over by the timing of the measuring, which is my point.

So if they are the same 42 months then that kind of kills your argument.

Rev 11:1 Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told, "Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there,
Rev 11:2 but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months.
Rev 11:3 And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth."

Now were the 1260 days starting or ending? WILL GRANT authority.

The gentiles WILL trample the holy city. It is starting.

Your timing is way off.

I think you are forgetting the writer is not writing at the present time. In another word, the future events were shown to John in visions, does that prove they are still future to us? Do you now hold futurist view on prophecies?

Also the scene of 2nd coming is in Rev 1. Does that mean everything after is to take place after the second coming?