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Rev. Moon discovered the true nature of the fall

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Rev Moon jr, Jan 29, 2001.

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  1. Rev Moon jr

    Rev Moon jr Guest

    Satan and Fallen Man
    What were the results brought about in the Creation by the spiritual and physical falls of Adam and Eve and the archangel? Let us consider this by comparing the results of the Fall with what would have happened if Adam and Eve had not fallen, but had realized the Three Blessings.
    If Adam and Eve had not fallen, but instead had achieved the perfection of their individual characters by becoming the incarnations of God's vertical love, they would have become husband and wife, establishing God's horizontal love, and they would have borne children with natures of goodness. Then, the Four Position Foundation through which they could experience the direct dominion of God's love would have been realized, But because Adam and Eve fell and became the embodiment of sin as a result of the
    non-Principle love initiated by the archangel, God, who is the lord of The Principle, was excluded, and a pseudo Four Position Foundation was established centered on Satan's false 'love' and on Satan, who has falsely played the role of the lord. This is the reason that the Bible says fallen people are the children of Satan (Jn 8:44) and that he is "the god of this world" (2 Cor 4:4) and "the ruler of this world" (Jn 12:31).
    Originally man was to have dominion over the angels, as well as over the rest of the Creation. However, Satan reversed this and came to dominate man and the cosmos. Therefore, as Romans 8:19 says, "...the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God...." Because of man's fall, all things are crying out to be freed from the dominion of Satan and to experience the dominion of true persons.
    Satan's Actions in the Fallen World
    How does Satan control the fallen world? Even Satan, who is "ruler of this world," can perform satanic actions only when he has an object with whom he has a reciprocal base. Satan's objects are evil spirit persons (those who dwell in the spirit world); their objects are the spirit selves of persons on earth; and, of course, the objects responding to people's spirit selves are their own physical bodies. Accordingly, Satan's power is manifested in persons on earth through the influence of evil spirits in the spirit world. Furthermore, since Satan is a spirit being, he can manifest himself transcendent of time and space, as long as he has a reciprocal base. When Luke 22:3 says that Satan entered into Judas Iscariot, it means that by establishing a reciprocal base and having a give and take relationship with Satan, Judas became the instrument of Satan.
    To restore the Kingdom of Heaven on earth means to realize the world in which Satan cannot act at all. To do this, every person must completely dissolve his relationship with Satan and restore a relationship with heaven, having a give and take relationship with God, through Jesus. DP
  2. mikitta

    mikitta Guest

    RMJr, you are listening to and believing in a very dangerous false gospel. One that has replaced the Glory of the incoruptible God with the lies of a swindler and cheat named Sung Myung Moon. He blasphemes every time he opens his mouth. When you repeat his lies, you also blaspheme the Holy, Righteous and Just God who is revealed only in the Bible. Turn away from the death that now ensnares you and turn to the righteous and Living Christ who longs to save your soul!

    God Bless,
  3. Josephus

    Josephus <b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b> Supporter

    Gen 3: 13
    Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?" The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."

    The sin of the serpant was when it deceived Eve. There is no mention of it fornicating with Eve (besides, can you honestly see a woman having sex with a snake?). If we are children of this snake, then why don't we have scales?

    Next, Eve commited the sin of pride, not fornication:

    Gen 3:6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it.

    The first recorded sin is the snake decieving Eve - if indeed you can call it a sin. The next is Eve not resisting the temptation, and put her desires for herself first and foremost in front of the desires of God (in other words when she ate the fruit she committed the sin of PRIDE not fornication).

    You can't sin where there is no law, for it is the law that defines sins and codifies the transgression. Fornication wasn't a sin because God never gave that command. The one and only command around was not to eat of the tree of good and evil. The law defines an action. The action comes from the heart. The heart is what sins.

    When Adam and Eve as one man (one flesh) ate and sinned, their eyes were opened for indeed they realized the nature of their sin and sought to hide from each other and from God. A prideful heart always demands oneself to protect that pride. Never is someone so naked and open as when they are naked in front of someone. It is the ultimate pride-buster and that is why the Nazis forced people to run around naked. When Adam and Eve had pride in their hearts, they sought to protect what they had "gained" as knowledge in that realization. With that realization they hid from God and from each other, just as we still do today - both physically and spiritually. That is the nature of the fall. The "fall" is from relationship. We didn't "fall" from the purity of sex. We fell from the relationship we had with God - and ONLY when BOTH the man and woman ate did the COMBINED man sin and forever was changed their perception of good and evil: humility and pride.

    The choice between humility and pride is the heart condition that God based his simple command for man to live with so that they could choose to love God or himself. God didn't want robots to love him out of program. He created us with choice so that we could CHOOSE to love him. This is based from the heart, and the heart has that simple choice before it always: humility or pride. Before eating of the tree, Adam and Eve lived in total humility before the LORD and each other. After they ate, they lived in pride and had to have that pride atoned for because they now knew how to walk in pride and once you have that knowledge, you can't take it away - all you can do is have God forgive you for it through His means of atonement. Thus that is why God killed animals to make skins for Adam and Eve. The transgression of the tree command required the death of them in that day. But instead of them dying, he kills an animal in the first recorded death in the bible and that blood atones for their sin. Still though, the man and woman die under the 1000 year limit of the God-lived day because they can no longer get rid of the knowledge of pride and how to walk in it. That very knowledge became their nature and we still have that "sin" nature today. Pride is root of sin. I call our nature a "pride" nature, but because we know about pride and act in it - when we do act in pride, we sin; so no matter what, we can't get around it. I'm sorry friend, but all we have to rely on is God's atonement for our sins - and thank Him that He paid the ultimate atonement that we are impossible to pay. With his atonement comes the guarantee of freedom from this body that knows how to act in the knowledge of pride. When we die (as the sin of pride demands), and raise to new life, our bodies (those in Christ) are transformed into new and perfect bodies without sin or the knowledge of pride for we will have been totally atoned for.

    Ah, but I could go on. I hope though you have read some important points I would love for you to sit down with your bible and reconsider. Mr. Moon obviously hasn't spent much time reading his.
  4. Rev Moon jr

    Rev Moon jr Guest

    Good and Evil Seen from the Viewpoint of Purpose
    If Adam and Eve had become the incarnations of goodness and established the Four Position Foundation with love centered on God, they would have realized the world of Goodness. Yet, because they related through love that was directed toward a purpose other than God's, they became incarnations of evil, established a pseudo Four Position Foundation (centered on Satan), and established a world of evil.
    Although in their initial stages of development good and evil actions appear to be similar to one another, as they move to accomplish their opposing goals they become separate and distinct. Good and evil are not innately decided by the particular action or type of action and result themselves, but are decided by whether the motive, direction, and purpose are toward the Will of God or toward the will of Satan.
    Sin is an act or thought which violates heavenly law, creating the condition through which one forms a reciprocal base with Satan and enters into a give and take relationship with him, directly or indirectly. In the ideal world which God originally conceived of, sin could not exist--there could not be a sinful act in the realm of God's love, for Satan could not exist there. As the result of Adam's and Eve's forming a reciprocal base with Satan and sinning, man lives in the non-Principle world and commits sin by becoming Satan's partner, directly or indirectly.
    Sin can be classified as Original Sin, Hereditary Sin, Collective Sin, and Personal Sin. Original Sin is the sin derived from the spiritual and physical fall of the first man and woman. It is the root of all sin. Hereditary Sin is the sin which is inherited from one's ancestors through the blood lineage (as mentioned in the Ten Commandments (Ex 20:5) ). This sin is analogous to the trunk of a tree. Collective Sin is neither one's own sin nor hereditary sin, but is the sin for which everyone is partially responsible as a member of mankind. The faithlessness of John the Baptist, the chief priests, and the scribes toward Jesus was responsible for his crucifixion. Though a relatively small group of people was directly responsible for the Crucifixion, Christianity, in particular, and mankind as a whole, have had to bear the responsibility for that sin and as a result have suffered greatly. Collective Sin is like the branches of a tree. Personal Sin is the sin committed by each individual. Such sins may be compared to the leaves of a tree. All sins originate with Original Sin, which is the root of all sin. Thus, man cannot be finally cleansed of any sin without first being cleansed of Original Sin.DP
  5. Josephus

    Josephus <b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b> Supporter

    Mr. Moon, you have no scriptural definition for sin. You have theory and philosophy, but it just doesn't line up with what I see in scripture.

    What is sin?

    Sin is the action of seperation from God. Period. Before creation, there was God. Sin did not exist because creation did not. God created - and when he did, he created something other than himself.

    God then gave his creation free will to choose between Himself or itself. Satan choose himself over God and thus it was called Pride. Pride led to further and further seperation from God until the point of Judgement came when he was removed from Heaven. In the final End, Satan will no longer exist in the universe as God is present everywhere and sin can no co-exist with Him.

    Biblical definition:

    1John 3:4 "sin is lawlessness."

    Romans 8:7 "the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so."

    Romans 7:14 "We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin."

    Satan is a spirit. When God created creation, he created creation to glorify himself.

    Psalm 19:1 "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands."

    Satan's pride caused him to fall.

    How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!
    You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.
    I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High."
    But you are brought down to the grave, to the depths of the pit.

    That "falling" was a fall from the righteousness of God, from relationship with the Most High, a fall from life into death. Indeed, a true seperation. How easily it is that pride blinds us the death that it leads us towards.

    Obadiah 1:3 "The pride of your heart has deceived you, you who live in the clefts of the rocks and make your home on the heights, you who say to yourself, `Who can bring me down to the ground?'"

    Pride is by definition the nature of the fall, and the original sin.

    Proverbs 8:13 "To fear the LORD is to hate evil; I hate pride and arrogance, evil behavior and perverse speech."

    Pride always comes before a fall.

    Proverbs 16:18 "Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall."

    So it (sin) starts with pride. But salvation begins humility in accepting that you are a sinner and that you need a Savior.

    The original sin was no doubt caused by the pride of the angel Lucifer who became the Devil as a result of his fallen state. This lead Satan into even more prideful acts for sin is indeed prideful and selfish. You NEVER can sin acting in humility. Sin is by nature a result of gratifying a prideful selfish desire. This idol worship of self is totally contrary to what God desires and knows is best for us: a life of humble righteousness in close, intimate, and loving relationship of one true God of all creation. The one who was, is, and is still to come. The Alpha and Omega - our Redeemer and Friend. Our Savior and our Counselor. The Lord Almighty.

    Fornication is not the original sin. You can't trace all sins of humanity back to a root in fornication. NO! You can however, trace the root of all sin to something called PRIDE.

    Repent of pride, or it will lead you into destruction. Come back to a Holy and loving God who truly waits for you with arms open wide - though his patience is not infinite as death is by the means in which we cross the point of no return.
  6. carma

    carma Guest

    Indeed, pride was also the cause of the fall of satan from his position.
  7. ChosenbyHim

    ChosenbyHim Guest

    Rev. Moon, you present much rhetoric without any Biblical scriptures to back up these theories. I for one, would appreciate any time you post your (Moon's) theology, to back up every point with at least one scripture, just as we have done with you in the past. Can we please see you do this with your future posts?

    Respectfully requested,
  8. Rev Moon jr

    Rev Moon jr Guest

    Believe it or not, the entire Bible is part of God’s efforts to restore true love. Adam and Eve lost true God-centered love.
    Why is Abraham considered the “father of faith” for the chosen people? And what exactly was required of Abraham in order to establish a covenant with God?
    Abraham had to establish an indemnity condition to reverse the fall. Abraham had to symbolically let out the satanic blood, due to the act of fornication between Eve and Lucifer and then between Eve and Adam, by striking the foreskin of his ***** and all males thereafter followed this condition. There is a direct connection between what happened in the garden and establishing a covenant with God later on.
    Only a misuse of love could destroy God’s ideal and only the proper use of love can restore God’s ideal. Only true love can remove false love. This is embodied in Jesus’ two great commandments.
    God was working through Israel to restore purity, to the point of death.[stoning] There was a reason for this. Jesus came to restore purity and the family, without which God cannot restore His original ideal.
    I understand that many Christians [like Jews] are bound to their scriptures. There is little God can say to them. But almighty God is pouring out His Spirit upon all flesh and revealing the truth to those who ask, seek and knock.
  9. carma

    carma Guest

    And still you post no scriptures to back your beliefs.

    Rev Moon, without scripture, it is your opinion and well, you know the saying, everyone has an opinion.
  10. Jesusong

    Jesusong Veteran

    Rev Moon Jr, One of the most plainest teachings of Scripture is that all doctrines must be supported by the Scriptures. The Apostle Paul in writing to the Galatian church states:
    In the Book of Isaiah it's stated in a different way:
    In order for a teaching or doctrine to have merit, it must be supported by the Scriptures. Otherwise the teaching is false & cannot be accepted by the Church.

  11. ChosenbyHim

    ChosenbyHim Guest

    Maybe it's time for a title change to "Rhetoric Man" ;)

  12. Pastor Carl

    Pastor Carl Guest

    I may tramp on some others theology also in this post, but I feel I need to make a point here.

    I do not believe that Scripture indicates that angels, good or fallen, including Satan himself, have sexual capabilities. If they had they would have tried to reproduce themselves in order to outnumber the angels that have remained true to God. They are created beings with no sexuality in and of themselves. They cannot reproduce. They can bear no children. They are asexual.

    Jesus said when questioned by the Pharisees: "At the resurrection they(people) neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like the angels." Sexual untion will not will not occur for believers in heaven and neither have or does it occur within the species of angelic beings.

    The only way a fallen angel can even have remotely the semblance of the act is when they physically possess a human being or an animal, and even then they have no seed(sperm) that will produce offspring.

    I realize that many hold that Genesis 6 indicates a sexual relationship between fallen angels and humans. However, I believe that this is a union between the seed of Cain's line and Seth's line. This is why only Noah whose personal line back to Seth remained pure, was spared from the flood. Nowhere else in Scripture does it indicate people having sexual relations with Satan or fallen angels. The Virgin birth was just that. A chaste virgin gave birth to the Son of God.

    Why must the sin at the fall be sexual in nature? When Adam and Eve were in the garden they were perfect. They were clothed with the glory of God Himself. When they fell the glory departed. It was after the glory departed that they knew they were naked. Without the glory of God bought by the precious blood of Jesus Christ we all stand naked and ashamed before God. We stand exposed in our sin.
  13. Rev Moon jr

    Rev Moon jr Guest

    To be perfect is to be one in heart with God. Perfect people can never fall. Hence, Adam and Eve were not perfect when they fell.

    Angels are male. According to Rev. Moon, female angels were to be created after the perfection of Adam and Eve.
    Rev. Moon is in constant communication with God, which by the way, is a normal state of being. It’s been my experience to believe what he says. Had Christians actually believed in Jesus and absolutely obeyed and practiced his words, many people today would be in constant communication with their Father God.

    Angels can indeed have sexual relations with humans. Angels are spiritual beings and people are both physical and spiritual. Although Eve and the archangel united in actual fornication by means of Eve’s spirit body and the archangel’s spirit body, no children can actually be born of a relationship between a human being and an angel. Nonetheless, Eve inherited satanic “love”, so when Eve and Adam had their relationship, which could produce children, their relationships were motivated by satanic “love”, and their children were born of that “love”. Thus, all people are the “children” of satan. This is the origin of original sin and the reason we need to be born again into God’s lineage.
    Jesus says in John 8:44, “You are of your father the devil…”

    Matt. 3:7 and Matt. 23:33, respectively, John the Baptist and Jesus called the people a “brood of vipers”—in other words, the offspring of satan. Thus we can understand that fallen man belongs to satan’s lineage, not God’s.

    Pastor Carl*** Jesus said when questioned by the Pharisees: "At the resurrection they(people) neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like the angels." Sexual union will not occur for believers in heaven and neither have or does it occur within the species of angelic beings.

    Why did Jesus say this? According to God’s principles, people were to be given in marriage only after they had perfected themselves. [ God wouldn’t want imperfect people multiplying, would He?] Jesus came to establish the original standard by which men and women can receive God’s permission to marry. Had the “chosen people” received Jesus as the Messiah, he himself would have established the first true God-centered family, thus opening the way for all to establish true families. Due to Jesus’ rejection, he could not take a true bride and thus neither could anyone else.
    At some point the original standard will be restored when the first true family is established. God’s original plan is easy to understand. God placed a naked man and a naked woman in the garden [along with their nanny, Lucifer], gave them His Word to obey [a responsibility] and Blessed them to become "“fruitful"”[mature, perfect],
    “multiply” [ establish a family],
    and to have dominion over the creation [including the angels].

    Then God rested! There it is!

    It’s a natural process. While Adam and Eve were in their growth period, God does not interfere with their responsibility, “Do Not Eat”. [don’t have sex without permission].
    Eve ate the “fruit” with Lucifer and passed it to Adam, who ate. Adam and Eve were ashamed of their nakedness, covered their sexual parts and were kicked out of the garden, unable to become true trees of life.
    [ People are still eating the fruit, which carries spiritual death]

    This is why Rev. Moon is again touring America with hundreds of ministers, to promote purity before marriage and fidelity within marriage, true parentism, true families and one world under God.

    The Lord comes to clean the lineage. All human beings have Satan's blood - false lineage. Messiah comes as a doctor with all skills needed to change lineage and engraft to the True Olive Tree.

    Satan is like a prostitute. Sometimes we also have a mind [urge] to sleep with a prostitute and think about what kind of joy we can get from this.

    Unless we can overcome our sexual desire, we cannot connect to God. By man's internal power alone, he cannot do it. He needs special help from God. Even if he tries one thousand times, he cannot do it.

    The flesh is the base of Satan.

    The most fearful enemy of the world is lineage - the sexual organ, if you misuse it. We should have confidence that we have nothing to do with Fallen Adam and Eve or their lineage and that we have been born anew.

    We have to control the sexual organ.

  14. carma

    carma Guest

    Well I'm in constant communication with God also, and God told me that Rev Moon ain't got it right.

    Pastor Carl,

    I had no idea the moonies had parts of Gnosticism in their beliefs, "the flesh is bad". Is that a normal belief for the moonies?
  15. And STILL no scripture to back up the wacked-out theory.
  16. Rev Moon jr

    Rev Moon jr Guest

    God is pouring out His Spirit upon all flesh. I'm very sorry for some Christians who are limited to only a few scriptures given to a people of 2,000 years ago. Anything God does or says will be rejected by them. Such people killed the prophets and crucified Jesus. They will try to discredit anyone God sends to raise them out of darkness.
    Such people have no respect for others.
  17. carma

    carma Guest

    No RMjr, we take God at HIS word and He said that Christ did the whole job, He completed it.

    You choose to listen to a false prophet and you also choose to not answer any of the questions that are put to you.

    Like one I asked you somewhere.

    Care to show me where Jesus was found guilty?
  18. Rev Moon jr

    Rev Moon jr Guest

    Jesus wasn't crucified because he was judged innocent!
  19. carma

    carma Guest

    Jesus was crucified to pay for sin.

    Jesus was crucified because it was a Feast and the people were allowed to have one prisoner released and they did not choose Jesus.

    Wanna show me where He was found guilty? Does the statement, "I find no guilt in this man, I wash my hands of this" ring a bell????
  20. momule

    momule amazing grace how sweet it is

    ....I still weep for you and followers, who can only speak in part truths.....since you are or seem to be
    (IMHO) thinking in legal ways, perhaps you should read this:

    I know your mind will not be changed, but if/when Christ can touch your heart in HIS proper response,
    maybe you can see the light, maybe you have already seen and read this?


    janet k.

    shortened the >< janet to fix the thread - Carma
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