Rev 14:12, what does it mean?

[klutedavid]

Is it "fixation" to even "mention" a Bible detail that others find "inconvenient"??

Genesis 3 tells the wife to be in subjection to her husband --

Your desire shall be for your husband,
And he shall rule over you.”

1 Cor 14 appeals to mosaic Law - in this regard. As YOU quoted for us..

1 Cor 14
34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.



Actually it is you that bring up the 1 Cor 14 quote about women who are supposed to learn at home and not speak while at church.



Until they get home? Not allowed to "learn at church"??



Is this the part where you accept the texts just quoted or where you are about to inform me what my view is???




Christ affirms "The LAW and the prophets" in Matt 22 - and "the LAW" in that case is all the books of Moses. Which is why we can have this in 1Cor 14 (Quoted by you)

1 Cor 14
34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.



Only the men were priests.

But it is not the case that "only the men were prophets" - recall in 1Cor 12 in the church there is appointed "FIRST Apostles THEN Prophets THEN pastors".

Luke 2
36 Now there was one, Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was of a great age, and had lived with a husband seven years from her virginity; 37 and this woman was a widow of about eighty-four years, who did not depart from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day. 38 And coming in that instant she gave thanks to the Lord, and spoke of Him to all those who looked for redemption in Jerusalem.

Hello Bob.

Speaking of the temple in Jerusalem.

You may have heard of the court of the gentiles, have you heard of the court of the women?

 

[bugkiller]

Hello bugkiller.

What else can we do bugkiller, it is written.

Not much.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Hello Bob.

Speaking of the temple in Jerusalem.

You may have heard of the court of the gentiles, have you heard of the court of the women?

Good one!

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

Hello Bob.

Speaking of the temple in Jerusalem.

You may have heard of the court of the gentiles, have you heard of the court of the women?

Solomon's temple - not Herod's.

Have you heard of 1 Cor 12??? How does it relate to the prophets such as Deborah and Anna in the Temple?

Christ affirms "The LAW and the prophets" in Matt 22 - and "the LAW" in that case is all the books of Moses. Which is why we can have this in 1Cor 14 (Quoted by you)

1 Cor 14
34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.

The law of Moses prohibits women from service in the sanctuary. Only the Levitical priests minister in the temple, only men can be priests.

Only the men were priests.

But it is not the case that "only the men were prophets" - recall in 1Cor 12 in the church there is appointed "FIRST Apostles THEN Prophets THEN pastors".

Luke 2
36 Now there was one, Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was of a great age, and had lived with a husband seven years from her virginity; 37 and this woman was a widow of about eighty-four years, who did not depart from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day. 38 And coming in that instant she gave thanks to the Lord, and spoke of Him to all those who looked for redemption in Jerusalem.

 

[klutedavid]

Solomon's temple - not Herod's.

Have you heard of 1 Cor 12??? How does it relate to the prophets such as Deborah and Anna in the Temple?

Christ affirms "The LAW and the prophets" in Matt 22 - and "the LAW" in that case is all the books of Moses. Which is why we can have this in 1Cor 14 (Quoted by you)

1 Cor 14
34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.



Only the men were priests.

But it is not the case that "only the men were prophets" - recall in 1Cor 12 in the church there is appointed "FIRST Apostles THEN Prophets THEN pastors".

Luke 2
36 Now there was one, Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was of a great age, and had lived with a husband seven years from her virginity; 37 and this woman was a widow of about eighty-four years, who did not depart from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day. 38 And coming in that instant she gave thanks to the Lord, and spoke of Him to all those who looked for redemption in Jerusalem.

Hello Bob.

You made some points below.

Solomon's temple - not Herod's.

They are both temples, same priesthood, same rules, same law, and women are not the clergy!

Have you heard of 1 Cor 12??? How does it relate to the prophets such as Deborah and Anna in the Temple?

I will repeat this once again, Deborah was not in the temple, Deborah sat under a palm tree away from populated towns. Why do you keep saying 'Deborah in the temple'?

Anna was in the temple but that was Herod's temple, Anna was restricted to the court of the women. Anna delivered prophecy of course but Anna was not involved in the service of the temple. Anna was not a Levitical priest, Anna had no authority whatsoever. Anna like all women were not vocal during the formal operation of the services in the temple.

Christ affirms "The LAW and the prophets" in Matt 22 - and "the LAW" in that case is all the books of Moses. Which is why we can have this in 1Cor 14 (Quoted by you)

You are confused, your seeing the shadows themselves (the law) as the fulfillment, this is incorrect. The priesthood changed and so did the law, Christ became the high priest of a new order and we follow the law of Christ now. New commandments, not the old commandments.

The levitical priesthood was the law of Moses, the levitical lineage was retired under the new covenant.

1 Cor 14
34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.

But it is not the case that "only the men were prophets" - recall in 1Cor 12 in the church there is appointed "FIRST Apostles THEN Prophets THEN pastors".

Correct Bob, I agree with you. Though when the church is gathered for a service, then the authority of the bishops and deacons becomes functional.

Women can prophesy all week long, but not during the service, they have no legal authority during this time. The law prohibits the interaction of women in the operation of the temple.

Luke 2
36 Now there was one, Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was of a great age, and had lived with a husband seven years from her virginity; 37 and this woman was a widow of about eighty-four years, who did not depart from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day. 38 And coming in that instant she gave thanks to the Lord, and spoke of Him to all those who looked for redemption in Jerusalem.

Anna was not a levitical priest, Anna had no temple authority, Anna was subject to both the high priest and the other priests. Anna could only step into the court of the women and no higher up the steps. When the temple was in formal operation, Anna was just a woman.

Women were forbidden from entering the sanctuary, the holy place and the holy of holies.
That is what the law states Bob. Your confusing the formal, legal temple service, with the informal weekday gatherings in the temple.

How could you ever mention, 'women', and the ,'sanctuary', together, that is impossible.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Hello Bob.

You made some points below.

They are both temples, same priesthood, same rules, same law, and women are not the clergy!

I will repeat this once again, Deborah was not in the temple, Deborah sat under a palm tree away from populated towns. Why do you keep saying 'Deborah in the temple'?

Anna was in the temple but that was Herod's temple, Anna was restricted to the court of the women. Anna delivered prophecy of course but Anna was not involved in the service of the temple. Anna was not a Levitical priest, Anna had no authority whatsoever. Anna like all women were not vocal during the formal operation of the services in the temple.

You are confused, your seeing the shadows themselves (the law) as the fulfillment, this is incorrect. The priesthood changed and so did the law, Christ became the high priest of a new order and we follow the law of Christ now. New commandments, not the old commandments.

The levitical priesthood was the law of Moses, the levitical lineage was retired under the new covenant.

1 Cor 14
34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.

Correct Bob, I agree with you. Though when the church is gathered for a service, then the authority of the bishops and deacons becomes functional.

Women can prophesy all week long, but not during the service, they have no legal authority during this time. The law prohibits the interaction of women in the operation of the temple.

Anna was not a levitical priest, Anna had no temple authority, Anna was subject to both the high priest and the other priests. Anna could only step into the court of the women and no higher up the steps. When the temple was in formal operation, Anna was just a woman.

Women were forbidden from entering the sanctuary, the holy place and the holy of holies.
That is what the law states Bob. Your confusing the formal, legal temple service, with the informal weekday gatherings in the temple.

How could you ever mention, 'women', and the ,'sanctuary', together, that is impossible.

This is part of the problem of having a denomination founded by a woman. They need to read women's active roles into scripture which flatly contradict scripture.

 

[klutedavid]

Solomon's temple - not Herod's.

Have you heard of 1 Cor 12??? How does it relate to the prophets such as Deborah and Anna in the Temple?

Christ affirms "The LAW and the prophets" in Matt 22 - and "the LAW" in that case is all the books of Moses. Which is why we can have this in 1Cor 14 (Quoted by you)

1 Cor 14
34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.



Only the men were priests.

But it is not the case that "only the men were prophets" - recall in 1Cor 12 in the church there is appointed "FIRST Apostles THEN Prophets THEN pastors".

Luke 2
36 Now there was one, Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was of a great age, and had lived with a husband seven years from her virginity; 37 and this woman was a widow of about eighty-four years, who did not depart from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day. 38 And coming in that instant she gave thanks to the Lord, and spoke of Him to all those who looked for redemption in Jerusalem.

Hello Bob.

Does the Bible Support Ordaining Women as Elders or Pastors?

Part 1 By Samuel Koranteng-Pipim, PhD. (adventistsaffirm.org)

Women in Ministry is the most recent attempt by well-meaning church scholars to provide a much-desired Biblical, historical, and ethical justification for ordaining women as elders and pastors. But as some other church scholars have argued in their Prove All Things: A Response to Women in Ministry , the Seminary book suffers from some serious shortcomings. Prove All Things reveals that the Seminary book is based on: (1) ambiguity and vagueness, (2) straw man arguments, (3) substantial leaps of logic, (4) arguments from silence, (5) speculative interpretations, (6) questionable reinterpretations of the Bible, (7) distorted Biblical reasoning, (8) misleading and erroneous claims regarding Adventist history, (9) a seriously flawed concept of "moral imperative," and (10) a fanciful view of the Holy Spirit's leading. (adventistsaffirm.org)

So does the Bible support the ordination of women, well no, according to the conservative side of the SDA.

 

[BobRyan]

Hello Bob.
Does the Bible Support Ordaining Women as Elders or Pastors?

How far from the actual topic do you want to derail the thread - before starting one on one of your other topics?? Just curious.

 

[klutedavid]

How far from the actual topic do you want to derail the thread - before starting one on one of your other topics?? Just curious.

Hello Bob.

Revelation 14:12
Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

1 Corinthians 14:37
If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord’s commandment.

So do we have a commandment that Paul gave, the things that Paul spoke about?

1 Corinthians 14:34
The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says.

That is one of the Lord's commandments, Paul told us this was a commandment.

Bob, this is within the boundary of the title of the thread, keeping the Lord's commandments.

 

[bugkiller]

How far from the actual topic do you want to derail the thread - before starting one on one of your other topics?? Just curious.

Gettin a little tight?

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
How far from the actual topic do you want to derail the thread - before starting one on one of your other topics?? Just curious.

Hello Bob.

Revelation 14:12
Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

Thanks. A refreshing change - going back to the actual topic on a thread area where God's Ten Commandments are almost constantly under criticism or outright condemnation.

1 Corinthians 14:37
If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord’s commandment.

Great text. So also the one in Exodus 20 -- actual spoken by God and written with His own hand ...

Its where we find things like "do not take God's name in vain".

And Hebrews 8 tells us these are CHRIST's Commandments - still to be treated that way by NT saints. Hebrews 8:6-10.

Hard to miss.

So do we have a commandment that Paul gave, the things that Paul spoke about?

Indeed - 1050 commands in the NT.

Including Paul's appeal in Ephesians 6:2 - to the fact that the fifth commandment is the FIRST commandment in God's Ten Commandments -- with a promise. Emphasizing once again God's Ten Commandment -- in fact going out of his way to do so.

1 Corinthians 14:34
The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says.

Indeed - Genesis 3 part of the "LAW and the prophets".

Do you have a text where Paul says HE is the author of "LAW"???

Just curious. After all there are 1050 commands in the NT.

 

[BobRyan]

Curious also if the "details" in this post ever got an answer -- other than my answer.

=================================================

So then you suppose that the Bible condemns Anna and Deborah no matter that the Bible affirms them - or you suppose that they "lose liberty under the Gospel" and claim that they should be glad they are not living in the NT after the cross??

I think we are all aware of the fact that in many Christian churches the women in attendance outnumber the men.

You bring up the 1 Cor 14 that the LAW says this --

1 Cor 14
34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.

Is this because you affirm the Law as Paul does in 1 Cor 14??

===========================

This thread is about Rev 14:12 "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

Notice how Jesus Himself claims that this means KEEPING the "Father's Commandment"

Hello Bob.

You may need to explain the following so that I can understand your point.

I see the command to not eat the fruit as a one off command, one that only Adam and Eve could disobey. So I do not understand your fixation with Genesis 3.

Is it "fixation" to even "mention" a Bible detail that others find "inconvenient"??

Genesis 3 tells the wife to be in subjection to her husband --

Your desire shall be for your husband,
And he shall rule over you.”

1 Cor 14 appeals to mosaic Law - in this regard. As YOU quoted for us..

1 Cor 14
34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.

This is a commandment, women are not permitted to exercise authority over men.

Actually it is you that bring up the 1 Cor 14 quote about women who are supposed to learn at home and not speak while at church.

They are not permitted to ask questions about what they are taught in church.

Until they get home? Not allowed to "learn at church"??

Hello Bob.
Your view of women in the ministry of the church is not supported by the scripture.
.

Is this the part where you accept the texts just quoted or where you are about to inform me what my view is???

Hello Bob.

In reference to the text which I will print below.

1 Corinthians 14
34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says.

You replied with the following.

The only problem with your quotation is that Genesis is not in the law.

Christ affirms "The LAW and the prophets" in Matt 22 - and "the LAW" in that case is all the books of Moses. Which is why we can have this in 1Cor 14 (Quoted by you)

1 Cor 14
34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.

The law of Moses prohibits women from service in the sanctuary. Only the Levitical priests minister in the temple, only men can be priests.

Only the men were priests.

But it is not the case that "only the men were prophets" - recall in 1Cor 12 in the church there is appointed "FIRST Apostles THEN Prophets THEN pastors".

Luke 2
36 Now there was one, Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was of a great age, and had lived with a husband seven years from her virginity; 37 and this woman was a widow of about eighty-four years, who did not depart from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day. 38 And coming in that instant she gave thanks to the Lord, and spoke of Him to all those who looked for redemption in Jerusalem.

 

[bugkiller]

Thanks. A refreshing change - going back to the actual topic on a thread area where God's Ten Commandments are almost constantly under criticism or outright condemnation.

Ah yes as if things were off a little by focusing on one of them.

Great text. So also the one in Exodus 20 -- actual spoken by God and written with His own hand ...

Its where we find things like "do not take God's name in vain".

Well so much for the subject of the thread. Now you want to talk about another command. Bob the real subject and great question of the thread is - How does one arrive at the verse meaning the 10 Cs? No where in any of John's writings do we find the 10 Cs stressed as an obligation. We do find obligation to the commands of Jesus, if we love Him. Jn 15:10 being a very strong one you refuses to accept as written.

And Hebrews 8 tells us these are CHRIST's Commandments - still to be treated that way by NT saints. Hebrews 8:6-10.

Bob I need you to point out the exact phrase from your reference saying that.

Hard to miss.

So hard you will not point it out for us.

Indeed - 1050 commands in the NT.

Including Paul's appeal in Ephesians 6:2 - to the fact that the fifth commandment is the FIRST commandment in God's Ten Commandments -- with a promise. Emphasizing once again God's Ten Commandment -- in fact going out of his way to do so.



Indeed - Genesis 3 part of the "LAW and the prophets".

Do you have a text where Paul says HE is the author of "LAW"???

Just curious. After all there are 1050 commands in the NT.

Since there are 1050 commands in the NT, why is it you seem to always point to one particular reference? It kinda gets wore out.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Neither would a man be allowed to "cause a disturbance" in worship.We probably both agree on that point as well.



Do you view this as in line with women not learning anything in church and keeping silence while at church?

No learning and teaching are two different things if I understand English correctly. You have no concept of what was happening in the early church. And you should note I said "women teaching women" not "women teaching men." The issues is authority and order. The Bible clearly teaches the female is subject to the male. Yes there are some exceptions where men failed to step up to the plate.

bugkiller

 

[bbbbbbb]

No learning and teaching are two different things if I understand English correctly. You have no concept of what was happening in the early church. And you should note I said "women teaching women" not "women teaching men." The issues is authority and order. The Bible clearly teaches the female is subject to the male. Yes there are some exceptions where men failed to step up to the plate.

bugkiller

I sometimes feel sorry for James White. It could not have been easy for him to have been married to Ellen, but then, as they say, love is blind.

 

[BobRyan]

It is my pleasure to point out that Revelation 14:12 and John 14:15 are both written by the same author. I enjoy quoting him.

So also 1 John 5:2-3 where we find that "This IS the Love of God that we KEEP His Commandments".

So also John 12 and John 14 where John reminds us that Christ speaks only the Commandments given by the Father... not His own Words.

As we already saw here --

John 14
9 Jesus *said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.

John 12
49 For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. 50 I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.”

Matt 19
17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 Then he *said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; 19 Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man *said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

I sometimes feel sorry for James White. .

Ahh - the refreshing return to the actual topic of the thread... oh no wait!

.Well so much for the subject of the thread.

 

[bugkiller]

I sometimes feel sorry for James White. It could not have been easy for him to have been married to Ellen, but then, as they say, love is blind.

He really got what he wanted.

bugkiller

 

[listed]

I sometimes feel sorry for James White. It could not have been easy for him to have been married to Ellen, but then, as they say, love is blind.

Ma says that, too. What I really here is love is way past ignorant and only for fools.

 

[bugkiller]

Ma says that, too. What I really here is love is way past ignorant and only for fools.

Dad said to stay away from women. That is both good and bad advice at the same time.
bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Ma says that, too. What I really here is love is way past ignorant and only for fools.

Looked for how you derailed you thread. The only thing I saw was you were nice to another chatting with them.

bugkiller