Rev 14:12, what does it mean?

BobRyan

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Just seen your SDA. I was raised as a kid in the SDA. When I returned to it last year, after many years of looking for a place to call home, I was greeted rather coldly in this church. The Long story, one I will not get into on an open forum. It is wrong to openly speak ill of any church. Needless to say it why I now do a home church, and that has been the biggest blessing I never seen coming.

I am sorry to hear about your experience in that case - glad you found a good solution.

I recently joined a small SDA church near the mountains - a very warm and friendly group of saints as I have ever met. :)
 
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Bob S

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Just seen your SDA. I was raised as a kid in the SDA. When I returned to it last year, after many years of looking for a place to call home, I was greeted rather coldly in this church. The Long story, one I will not get into on an open forum. It is wrong to openly speak ill of any church. Needless to say it why I now do a home church, and that has been the biggest blessing I never seen coming.
That is sad that you were treated coldly. My experience is quite different from yours..I left the SDA church over 20 years ago because I came not to believe some of the doctrine and their prophet. When I visit the church even until this day I am always treated warmly. I was recently back for alumni and it was a great day of seeing friends. There were no false pretenses that I was in the least aware. My wife took part in the program as she was a teacher there for many years and we had a great day with our Sabbath observing friends.
 
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bugkiller

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Just commenting on my part of your post.
I see... so since you never find John quoting "Honor your father and mother" and never find him quoting "do not take God's name in vain" is it then your claim that the Rev 14:12 statement about the saints "Keeping the Commandments of God" - can not possibly mean they were not taking God's name in vain and were in fact honoring their parents?
The issue I brought to your attention is John never talks about keeping the law in any of his works.

You leave out things like Jn 1:17; 15:10; I Jn 3:23 that clearly show John does not reference the law when it comes to commandments. So then you present some obscure verse like the title of this thread insisting it includes the law. I see no proof. What John consistently presents disproves your idea.
John says "This IS the Love of God - that we KEEP God's Commandments" 1 John 5:2-3.
Yes and amen! The problem is you leave out what John says is God's commandment in the same letter chapter 3, verse 23. That lines up with Jn 15:10 perfectly. You do not want to talk about that verse either.
Not Jesus' Words... the Father's Words! -- according to Jesus.
John 14
7 If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.”
8 Philip *said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9 Jesus *said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves

John 12:49
49 For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.

John 8:38 38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father:
The above is a denial of the trinity to prove Jesus is the Father and gave the law. John just does not agree with you. Yes we know full well your church teaches against the trinity. I have read about the fight in your church over this doctrine. The statement of Faith published by your church is nothing more than an appeasement to Walter Martin.

So since the Scripture also says "no man hath seen God at any time" twice in John's works your intended meaning of the above is to deceive. This is called sophistry. Took the word "sophistry" right from EGW. Unfortunately for you I have read all the Bible.

Nothing in this post by me is intended to be derogatory or slanderous to or about you or your church and beliefs. Just general unknown facts called debate.

bugkiller
 
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BobRyan

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So what. James does not require the keeping of the law. Not a single one of the good works James talks about are works of the law (10 Cs).Sure why would a lover do that?
bugkiller

Until you take the time to read James 2.

James 2
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; (That is from Lev 19:18 -- in James' quote of it)

9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

(What Law? Ten Commandments? James will now quote from it for us)


11 For He who said,Do not commit adultery,” also said,Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

Just commenting on my part of you post.The issue I brought to your attention is John never talks about keeping the law in any of his works.

And I make two points in response.
1. The Bible has 66 books and both OT and NT authors "inform us " about the term used "Commandments of God". Exegesis demands that we "notice".
2. John tells us Christ affirms the Father's Commandments rather than telling us He was deleting/replacing them all.

==================

Jesus said that His Words are in fact given to Him by the Father - they are in harmony with .. not opposed to - the Commandments of God according to Christ in John 14 and in John 12.


John 14:10..
10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.

It is GOD's Commandments - it is not a divide/war/conflict/ between Christ and the Father.

John 12
48 He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day. 49 For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. 50 I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.”

And we also have this example of Jesus affirming rather than denying the Commandments of God as we find them in the TEN Commandments.

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Of course other NT writers also affirm the Commandments of God -

James 2
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture,You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well;
9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by THE Law as transgressors.
10 For whoever shall keep the whole Law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of THE Law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.


It based on "He who said"


Eph 6:2
2 “Honor your father and mother,” which is the first commandment with promise:

And we have the Ten Commandments spoken by Christ at Sinai - Ex 20. Heb 8:6-10

==============

Ten Commandments included in what scripture calls the "Commandments of God"

10 Commandments are – the commandments of God

Commandments of God” Neh 10:29
“Law of God” Neh 10:29
5th Commandment: “Word of God” = “Commandment of God” = “Moses said” Mark 7:13
NT “Scripture” James 2:8
NT “Law” – James 2:9-11 includes “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not commit murder.”
NT Commandments Rom 13:9, Romans 7:7-10

Eph 6:2 “the first commandment with a promise” in the TEN Commandments – is the fifth commandment

Which Commandments?” – Matt 19:17-19
“‘You shall not murder,’
‘You shall not commit adultery,’
‘You shall not steal,’
‘You shall not bear false witness,’
19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
 
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Rainrider

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I am sorry to hear about your experience in that case - glad you found a good solution.

I recently joined a small SDA church near the mountains - a very warm and friendly group of saints as I have ever met. :)

Many times in life we are handed a gift, that at first we may not like. However the home church I started is full of folks from almost every denomination now. That is what I love the most, we discuss things from so many teachings, and it seems we all learn something new every Shabbot. Now way to say that isn't a blessing.
 
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BobRyan

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Many times in life we are handed a gift, that at first we may not like. However the home church I started is full of folks from almost every denomination now. That is what I love the most, we discuss things from so many teachings, and it seems we all learn something new every Shabbot. Now way to say that isn't a blessing.

Nice!
You will also find that this board has a lot of people discussing topics coming from many vast and widely differing points of view. Some even exchange the Bible for the book "Urantia" -- so widely varying opinions can certainly be had here as well. :)
 
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bugkiller

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Nice!
You will also find that this board has a lot of people discussing topics coming from many vast and widely differing points of view. Some even exchange the Bible for the book "Urantia" -- so widely varying opinions can certainly be had here as well. :)
Never heard of that book. Can you link me to any post quoting it?

bugkiller
 
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Rainrider

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Nice!
You will also find that this board has a lot of people discussing topics coming from many vast and widely differing points of view. Some even exchange the Bible for the book "Urantia" -- so widely varying opinions can certainly be had here as well. :)

As I am finding. I am also finding that some on here find inventive ways to call others a liar, or, degrade what they say, if it doesn't line up with their own teaching. I am cool with that, any time you deal with people you have them. I myself don't take kindly to being called a liar no matter how it gets dressed up though. So I now at lest some people that can post what ever they wish, and I will just ignore it.
 
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bugkiller

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As I am finding. I am also finding that some on here find inventive ways to call others a liar, or, degrade what they say, if it doesn't line up with their own teaching. I am cool with that, any time you deal with people you have them. I myself don't take kindly to being called a liar no matter how it gets dressed up though. So I now at lest some people that can post what ever they wish, and I will just ignore it.
Well it is interesting that your view is the one that lines up with Scripture. Said tongue-in-cheek. I find that those who post like you did above are always in error. They gripe to manipulate.

bugkiller
 
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Dkh587

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OP, what do you think this verse means? Which commandments of God? It says the devil is angry and goes after the ones that have the testimony of Christ & keep God's commandments.

Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Are Christians part of remnant of the seed of the woman?
 
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listed

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OP, what do you think this verse means? Which commandments of God? It says the devil is angry and goes after the ones that have the testimony of Christ & keep God's commandments.

Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Are Christians part of remnant of the seed of the woman?
I notice the dragon is only wroth with those who keep the testimony of Jesus. Why is Jesus always mentioned with this type of statement you claim is the law issued in the desert to Israel? Why don't you acknowledge the change of covenants and thus the law has been eliminated? The new covenant is base on "better promises," not law.

Now for your question, background us required.
Where does John require any OT requirement remains in force?

John says the commandment of God is keeping the commandments of Jesus in 1 Jn 3:23.

Jn 15:10 contrasts those commandments with those of His Father. We know Jesus kept the law. Do you have some evidence the commandments Jesus kept aren't in fact the law?

Are Christians part of the remnant seed of the woman? No.
 
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Dkh587

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I notice the dragon is only wroth with those who keep the testimony of Jesus. Why is Jesus always mentioned with this type of statement you claim is the law issued in the desert to Israel? Why don't you acknowledge the change of covenants and thus the law has been eliminated? The new covenant is base on "better promises," not law.

Now for your question, background us required.
Where does John require any OT requirement remains in force?

John says the commandment of God is keeping the commandments of Jesus in 1 Jn 3:23.

Jn 15:10 contrasts those commandments with those of His Father. We know Jesus kept the law. Do you have some evidence the commandments Jesus kept aren't in fact the law?

Are Christians part of the remnant seed of the woman? No.
It says the dragon is wroth with those who keep the commandments of God & have the testimony of Christ.

Revelation 12:17 says commandments, meaning more than 1. 1 John 3:23 is 1 command. So the writer in Revelation isn't talking about 1 single command. What commands is the writer referring to?

I believe Jesus kept the law, and I believe he taught his followers to do the same. Paul took a vow in Acts 21 to show that he himself kept the law, and that he wasn't teaching the law was done away with.

All throughout Matthew 5 he is teaching from the law & prophets & writings(Tanach/Old Testament). Also Matthew 23:1-2 showing Messiah teaching everybody(the crowds + his disciples) to obey God's commands(the law). He was speaking to the general public and fully teaching the Torah & the Prophets.
 
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BobRyan

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I notice the dragon is only wroth with those who keep the testimony of Jesus. Why is Jesus always mentioned with this type of statement you claim is the law issued in the desert to Israel? .

Hebrews 8:5-10 says it was Jesus speaking in the desert to Israel.
 
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BobRyan

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Many times in life we are handed a gift, that at first we may not like. However the home church I started is full of folks from almost every denomination now. That is what I love the most, we discuss things from so many teachings, and it seems we all learn something new every Shabbot. Now way to say that isn't a blessing.

Amen! very true!
 
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BobRyan

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It says the dragon is wroth with those who keep the commandments of God & have the testimony of Christ.

Revelation 12:17 says commandments, meaning more than 1. 1 John 3:23 is 1 command. So the writer in Revelation isn't talking about 1 single command. What commands is the writer referring to?

I believe Jesus kept the law, and I believe he taught his followers to do the same. Paul took a vow in Acts 21 to show that he himself kept the law, and that he wasn't teaching the law was done away with.

All throughout Matthew 5 he is teaching from the law & prophets & writings(Tanach/Old Testament). Also Matthew 23:1-2 showing Messiah teaching everybody(the crowds + his disciples) to obey God's commands(the law). He was speaking to the general public and fully teaching the Torah & the Prophets.

good point.
 
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bugkiller

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It says the dragon is wroth with those who keep the commandments of God & have the testimony of Christ.

Revelation 12:17 says commandments, meaning more than 1. 1 John 3:23 is 1 command. So the writer in Revelation isn't talking about 1 single command. What commands is the writer referring to?
You cannot quote a single phrase form John's works showing he is promoting the law.
I believe Jesus kept the law, and I believe he taught his followers to do the same. Paul took a vow in Acts 21 to show that he himself kept the law, and that he wasn't teaching the law was done away with.
You can believe what ever you wish. That belief does not establish your point from Scripture. You interject what you wish the Scripture to say. You do not understand what was happening in Acts 21. Your point is invalid.
All throughout Matthew 5 he is teaching from the law & prophets & writings(Tanach/Old Testament). Also Matthew 23:1-2 showing Messiah teaching everybody(the crowds + his disciples) to obey God's commands(the law). He was speaking to the general public and fully teaching the Torah & the Prophets.
The general public just happens to be Jews under and obligated to the law before the NC took effect.

It really does not matter about it being only one commandment. Jesus says to keep His commandments in Jn 15:10. Jesus says HE keeps His Father's commandments. Jesus does not say keep His Father's commandments. In Matthew Jesus says "but i say..." after referring to one of the 10 Cs and other parts of the law. Jesus does not teach the law. Your point is Jesus is teaching from the law is correct. The fact is as you mention "from the law" which is a far cry of teaching the law. The "but I say" phrase proves this.

bugkiller
 
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