Resolving a Paradox

[untunhud]

I dont see there would be any point in having the faith if the Resurrection were not true. If the Resurrection were not true there would be no reason to believe in any of the things he said like that he is the only way to salvation. The Bible would be then just a lot of poetry but I dont think you can build a faith on just symbolical stories. For various reasons (empty tomb, appearances of Jesus) I think that the Resurrection did actually happen which means what Jesus said was right so he is the only way to salvation. I suppose that sounds kind of bigoted as if I were hating other religions, but that's where my reasoning goes. The idea of symbolical stories might be true of the Old Testament. My aunt told me that the Noah's flood story was about redemption. As for the Zeitgeist movie it said that Christianity was a religion invented in the Council of Niceae. But Christianity was around before the fourth century I think it was. The Gospels were written in the first century so how could Christianity have been invented in the fourth century? Anyway that's my take on the issue.

Best

 

[untunhud]

I would just add that I need to rethink the issue of hell. I saw this site which was giving reasons why it could not exist. Before, I was ignoring such reasons because I thought you had to rely on faith rather than reason but then I didn't know which beliefs to have faith in.

 

[seashale76]

I would just add that I need to rethink the issue of hell. I saw this site which was giving reasons why it could not exist. Before, I was ignoring such reasons because I thought you had to rely on faith rather than reason but then I didn't know which beliefs to have faith in.

I post this a lot :

I'm swiping this old entry from the now defunct Wiki pages here at Christian Forums as it says it better than I could (the three links within still work though):
The Orthodox teaching is that Heaven and Hell are the same "place" , standing in front of God. The Judgment is individual perception, determined by one's relationship to God. This perception will determine whether or not one experiences it as paradise (Heaven) or agony (Hell) eternally .

Here is a quote from an old Wikipedia article on the topic (that doesn’t seem to be around anymore) that I thought explained it pretty well:
"For many ancient Christians, Hell was the same "place" as Heaven: living in the presence of God and directly experiencing God's love. Whether this was experienced as pleasure or torment depended on one's disposition towards God. St. Isaac of Syria wrote in Mystic Treatises: "... those who find themselves in Hell will be chastised by the scourge of love. How cruel and bitter this torment of love will be! For those who understand that they have sinned against love, undergo greater suffering than those produced by the most fearful tortures. The sorrow which takes hold of the heart, which has sinned against love, is more piercing than any other pain. It is not right to say that the sinners in Hell are deprived of the love of God ... But love acts in two ways, as suffering of the reproved, and as joy in the blessed!" This ancient view is still the doctrine of the Eastern Orthodox Church."

 

[singpeace]

These are some of the people who documented accounts of Jesus life:

Flavius Josephus
Carius Cornelius Tacitus
Pliny the Younger
Suetonius
The Archko Volume
Thallus
Pontius Pilate
Talmud
and the 4 Gospels: Matthew, Mark, Luke and John

 

[untunhud]

I've been reading this webpage (sorry I can't post the link) and there does seem to be some problems with the idea of hell. A loving father would not want his creatures to suffer. And if he could do anything, he could stop any suffering. But the Resurrection did happen. It could be that hell is a false doctrine like this website says, but then it might be that God cannot do everything. I don't know.

Singpeace, I've made a note of the historical authorities you have mentioned and I will see how much they say about Jesus and whether they wrote their stuff when Jesus was alive. I think the Bible says Jesus was quite famous even when he was alive.

 

[singpeace]

Okie dokie smokie.

I wouldn't try to figure out everything too soon. Take one idea or question at a time. Make a list and check them off. But I strongly suggest that you hold yourself open to the fact that many articles written by theologians are scholarly and use basis of fact and science to back up the Gospel of Jesus Christ as well as many other things mentioned in the Bible. Secular scholars usually have their own agenda and don't really research the scriptures but set out only to disprove them.

You can't see air, but it's there.

 

[untunhud]

Yes thanks, Singpeace. I have read this scholarly book by Lee Strobel, an investigative journalist taking a scientific approach to the case for Christianity.

I watched a video on Youtube about the Rapture. All this destruction. I read somewhere about the bodies of nonChristians being unearthed and laid out in eternal contempt.

I'd like to be a part of something which is about love and kindness. I'm a bit down at the moment and am not sure whether doing any research is going to make a difference. I'm leaving it for now.

 

[aiki]

It could be that hell is a false doctrine like this website says, but then it might be that God cannot do everything. I don't know.

I wrote the remarks below in answer to a question about Hell in another thread. I think it might be useful here as well.


If you think of God solely or primarily as loving, you quickly run into problems with understanding those acts of His which reflect His justice and holiness. Hell makes little sense if God is simply all-loving. But this isn't the kind of God the Bible describes. God does hate something: Sin. He hates it with a perfect hatred born of His perfect holiness. In fact, God's holiness is His pre-eminent quality; even His love is bounded by it. God cannot, then, love what is evil; He utterly rejects sin wherever He finds it.

God is also just. He not only rejects sin, He judges it. The thing is, sin is ultimately in defiance of God Himself, which makes our sin far, far more terrible than we typically think it is. Our inclination is to downplay the selfish, sinful things we do. I mean, who wants to think, let alone admit, they are sinful or evil? No one! Consequently, we see hell, God's judgment of our evil deeds, as an over-reaction on His part. "What's the big deal?" we wonder. How is eternal torment an appropriate response to our sin? This question usually stems from an over-emphasis on the deed, rather than on the fact that the deed is ultimately committed against God. Its one thing to slap your sibling in the face; its entirely another to slap God in the face! But this is what our sin does. Whether we lie, or steal, gossip, or murder, all of these things are committed against our Maker, they are all a slap in His face, and they are all, consequently, worthy of the terrible punishment of hell.

And then, I wonder why God can't forgive his children and spare them hell. Jesus said that we are supposed to forgive our enemies- it seems to me that God can't do what we are supposed to do.

Ah, but He has forgiven and will forgive all those who accept His sacrifice for their sins! God is loving and merciful, too, and so He has made a way to forgive us of our sins and to bring us into fellowship with Himself. This way had to satisfy His holiness and justice and thus it required the death of His Son, Jesus; but it is available to all who will repent of their sin and by faith receive what Jesus has done on their behalf.

Peace.

 

[untunhud]

This doesn't make sense. If I steal an apple it is not God who is inconvenienced but the grocer store, so why should he regard it as a slap in his face? Even if I stole an apple from God, it would still seem an over-reaction if he burnt me in fire forever.

Say if somebody stole an apple from me and I reacted by torturing the thief to death. Surely that would be an even greater sin? The fact that I don't do such a thing does not make me an unjust being; quite the opposite. So why when God burns people in fire forever for doing things like stealing apples, would that not be regarded as an even greater sin? If he hates sin so much, why not slap his own wrist?

So no I don't see how hell can be a good thing.

 

[aiki]

This doesn't make sense. If I steal an apple it is not God who is inconvenienced but the grocer store, so why should he regard it as a slap in his face?

Because God has said not to steal. When you steal, then, it is in disobedience to His command. Therefore, the sin of stealing is against God (as well as the grocer).

Even if I stole an apple from God, it would still seem an over-reaction if he burnt me in fire forever.

I guess you have a pretty small view of God. This kind of view is helpful in diminishing the seriousness of sin. The smaller God is made, the less offensive is our sin. But God is not small. He is the Lord God Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth; He is the One "in whom there is no darkness at all," who hates sin with a perfect hatred, whose power and wisdom beggars our own, and whose holy presence drops men to their knees in stunned awe and fearful shame.

When you begin to see God as He really is, then you will begin to understand why something we think is trivial, like stealing an apple, is actually a terribly evil act against our Creator.

Say if somebody stole an apple from me and I reacted by torturing the thief to death. Surely that would be an even greater sin?

Now you're comparing yourself to God, making an inappropriate parallel between Him and you. You haven't the power, place, or authority to even begin to make such a comparison warranted.

The fact that I don't do such a thing does not make me an unjust being; quite the opposite. So why when God burns people in fire forever for doing things like stealing apples, would that not be regarded as an even greater sin? If he hates sin so much, why not slap his own wrist?

People don't go to hell because they steal apples, but because they defy and disobey God in stealing apples. Stealing apples may not deserve eternal punishment but defying the Creator of the Universe certainly does. Hell is also the consequence of spurning God's gift of salvation and the tremendous love, and grace and mercy revealed to us in that gift.

So no I don't see how hell can be a good thing.

Hell is only a good thing insofar as it is a demonstration of God's holiness and justice. The reality of Hell should be a deeply provoking thing to Christians.

Peace.

 

[untunhud]

You are saying that God is basically big. If I translate your poetic words into statements of attributes about God we get:
1) God is all-powerful
2) God created Heaven and Earth.
3) God is all-good.
4) God is all-wise
5) God absolutely hates people disobeying him.

Now it does not seem good to hate people disobeying you. God may have attributes 1 - 4 but how are people to know that God is all-wise? Especially if he does not give reasons for his commands? Shouldn't people use reason to work out what is wrong or right, not just do whatever some being who says he is all-wise commands? If God makes a trivial command such as wear white socks why would it be so dreadful to disobey him that it warrants eternal torture? If God tells you not to commit genocide then I can understand disobeying such a command would be wrong. But then it would be still wrong even if Aunt Sally commanded it. Genocide would be wrong not because God has forbidden it but because it is genocide.

Thus if God tells me to wear white socks and I disobey then I dont see how having so much power and being the Creator implies that disobeying him is such a terribly evil act. It just does not follow.

Yet what is wrong or right depends on the situation not on irrelevant characteristics that you may happen to possess. If torture is wrong when humans do it, it should be wrong when an all-powerful Creator does it. And if an all-powerful Creator does do torture then he is not all-good.

I dont see that hell demonstrates any kind of justice at all.

 

[Texan40]

One point I think that you may be missing, untunhud, is that God doesn't "send people to hell." God wants us all to choose salvation but honors and upholds our right to choose. There is also a huge difference between what most people deem "fair" and what is just and what is righteous. God isn't "fair" by human standards but he is indeed just and righteous. I've heard it described that the Holy Spirit is a gentleman. He will never force his way into your life but must be invited in. He will hold your hand all the way to hell if that is the direction your choices take you... at any time you can repent and chose to take God's hand. As to what "hell" actually is? I have no idea. Is it fire, torture, pain? Is it lonely oblivion? Biblical references are not specific but it is made clear that those who chose to go against God will spend eternity separated from Him. God is pure good, peace, love, for ETERNITY... who wouldn't choose that?

 

[untunhud]

Well okay but some Christians seem to be saying that hell is an eternal torment. It seems pointless to me to follow a religion just because you are afraid of what may happen if you dont.

 

[aiki]

You are saying that God is basically big.

He's a whole lot more than that! "Big" doesn't really even begin to cover the nature of God.

Now it does not seem good to hate people disobeying you.

God's perfect holiness, justice, love and wisdom are reflected in His commands. When we disobey His commands we reject the wisdom, love, holiness and rightness that those commands embody. We also suffer the destructive consequences of disobeying, which always follow such disobedience. God would protect us from such consequences if we would only obey Him. The matter isn't just one of doing what God wants, but of living in the best possible way, the way God made us to live. When we sin, we adopt a course that is not ordered by God's excellent nature. When we sin, we suffer the destruction that not following God's best way causes. When we sin, we fail to live in the way our Maker created us to live. For these reasons alone God has good cause to hate our sin.

God may have attributes 1 - 4 but how are people to know that God is all-wise? Especially if he does not give reasons for his commands?

How do we know God is all-wise? Well, as far as our limited faculties allow, we can see in the experience of others and in our own experience the truth of God's wisdom given to us in His Word, the Bible. As well, when we investigate what God has made, we can catch a glimpse of His awesome wisdom there, too.

Shouldn't people use reason to work out what is wrong or right, not just do whatever some being who says he is all-wise commands?

Are you playing Devil's Advocate, now? Or are you playing at something else?

If God is as the Bible reveals Him to be, it seems to me a no-brainer that one would allow His perfect wisdom to inform one's own finite, flawed understanding.

If God makes a trivial command such as wear white socks why would it be so dreadful to disobey him that it warrants eternal torture?

For starters, because God does not issue trivial commands. And also because of who He is, and because of the things I noted at the start of this post.

If God tells you not to commit genocide then I can understand disobeying such a command would be wrong. But then it would be still wrong even if Aunt Sally commanded it. Genocide would be wrong not because God has forbidden it but because it is genocide.

And how do you conclude that anything is right or wrong? How is it obvious to you that a command of God about wearing white socks would be trivial while a command forbidding genocide is not?

Thus if God tells me to wear white socks and I disobey then I dont see how having so much power and being the Creator implies that disobeying him is such a terribly evil act. It just does not follow.

On your line of thinking it doesn't follow.

Yet what is wrong or right depends on the situation not on irrelevant characteristics that you may happen to possess. If torture is wrong when humans do it, it should be wrong when an all-powerful Creator does it. And if an all-powerful Creator does do torture then he is not all-good.

And what in a situation determines whether or not a thing is right or wrong?

I dont see that hell demonstrates any kind of justice at all.

I can see that. And given your line of reasoning and perspective on God it is not unexpected.

Peace.

 

[untunhud]

There seems to be a bit of a muddle in what you are saying.

As I understand you God hates sin. So he punishes nonChristians with hell. (Although I dont see that hating sin entitles you to torture people.)

Why does God hate sin? Because when we sin, we go to hell. But if God does not punish us, then we would not go to hell and so sin would not have destructive consequences. Thus there would be no need to hate sin.

I would be grateful if you would clarify.

Cheers.

 

[Texan40]

Nowhere in scripture does it say that Hell is "God's punishment." Just as life has natural consequences based on our actions and free will, so does our eternal spirit. When a parent watches a child continually make bad decisions that bring on negative consequences it hurts. It doesn't stop a parent from loving their child but you can be assured the parent hates the decisions not the child. God is our father, our true father, and he loves us unconditionally which means that we hurt him every time we make choices in favor of selfishness and sin. Considering the scope of human sin that's a lot of pain to give to the Creator, but he still loves us and wants us to succeed not only in our human life but to come to him in the Spirit when we die.

 

[untunhud]

I have no problem with the idea that hell is the natural consequences of sin.

What Im saying is that it would be unjust if God deliberately made those consequences happen whether to punish us or for some other reason.

There are just two problems though.

1) God is meant to be all-powerful so does n't that mean he is allowing hell to happen to nonChristians?

2) Christians speak of the Day of Judgement when our fate is decided: Hell or Heavan. Does not that imply that hell is punishment?

 

[salida]

There are so many resources about this. Visit: www.equip.org,
christiananswers.net, www.TheBibleProofBook.com, books are The Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell (overwhelming circumstantial evidence of bible), Examine the Evidence by Muncaster (a former athiest) and The Real Jesus by Lee Strobel (who was an athiest).

 

[untunhud]

OK Thanks salida

 

[aiki]

As I understand you God hates sin. So he punishes nonChristians with hell. (Although I dont see that hating sin entitles you to torture people.)

Hell is torturous, to be sure, but so are a lot things that aren't actually torture. Hell is, in large part, giving a sinner what he wants: An existence devoid of God. It is also a punishment for rebelling against one's Maker and choosing to live opposite the way God has intended. It is the just reward for living a life that despises the goodness, and mercy, and love of God. When a judge passes sentence on a criminal and confines him to prison we don't think of that punishment as torture, but as justice. So, too, with God; His judgment of sin is not torture, but divine justice.

Why does God hate sin? Because when we sin, we go to hell.

No, He hates sin because it is anathema to His holy nature; He hates sin because it defies His goodness and love expressed to us in His commands and in the sacrifice of His Son for our sins; He hates sin because it leads us away from Him into darkness and because the destructive effects of sin ripple out beyond the sinner and damage or destroy others.

But if God does not punish us, then we would not go to hell and so sin would not have destructive consequences.

If God is holy and just He must punish sin; by His very nature He cannot do otherwise.

Thus there would be no need to hate sin.

If God did not hate sin, He would not be holy.

Peace.