Resolving a Paradox

[untunhud]

So let me get this straight. Would you agree with the following moral principle:

A person X who disobeys another person Y is committing evil against that person Y and such evil is in proportion to the greatness of Y.

And also:

God is infinitely great.

 

[aiki]

So let me get this straight. Would you agree with the following moral principle:

A person X who disobeys another person Y is committing evil against that person Y and such evil is in proportion to the greatness of Y.

Not as you've stated it here, no. For one thing, if we're talking about God, He is not a person in the sense that we are. Drawing a direct parallel between Him and us involves a fundamental error in comparison.

And also:

God is infinitely great.

"Great" is kinda' vague. You'll need to be more specific.

Peace.

 

[untunhud]

[FONT=&quot]Okay my response to Aiki so far. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I suspect that Aiki and I share more or less the same morals. The difference between us is that Aiki believes in a special kind of being to whom these morals do not apply. God is not a person in the sense that humans are persons. We cannot compare what humans do with what God does. Or something like that. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I dont believe in such a being and never have. To me the idea of a person who is not a person in the sense that we are persons does not mean anything to me. To me the actions of all persons are comparable. As far as I am concerned if something is not a person in the sense that we are persons then it is simply not a person but something that is like an animal or a thing. I have been talking about this subject with different people on the internet. People give all different kinds of reasons why hell is okay. The one thing they share is they want disbelievers to burn. Maybe I've been conned and I shouldn't be scaring people with stories of hell and evil gods. Like sending people chain letters and that kind of stuff. Spreading superstition. Maybe there are other explanations for the stories in the Bible. Maybe I should n't live my life in fear. Not good for my mental health, especially being a paranoid schizophrenic. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

 

[aiki]

Okay my response to Aiki so far.

I suspect that Aiki and I share more or less the same morals. The difference between us is that Aiki believes in a special kind of being to whom these morals do not apply.

Morals do not apply to God? I'm not sure what you mean...

God is not a person in the sense that humans are persons. We cannot compare what humans do with what God does.

Again, you are vague in the terms you use. In what sense do you mean "person"? A physical entity? A self-aware being? What?

I dont believe in such a being and never have. To me the idea of a person who is not a person in the sense that we are persons does not mean anything to me.

Human beings comprehend all sorts of concepts that are foreign to their humanness. What's the problem with doing the same with God?

To me the actions of all persons are comparable. As far as I am concerned if something is not a person in the sense that we are persons then it is simply not a person but something that is like an animal or a thing.

The phrase "in the sense that we are persons" should be clarified.

I have been talking about this subject with different people on the internet. People give all different kinds of reasons why hell is okay. The one thing they share is they want disbelievers to burn.

Well, shame on them! I certainly don't want unbelievers to burn. Anyone who claims to be a Christian but who takes some sort of gratification from the idea of people burning in hell is, in my opinion, profoundly out of touch with their faith.

Maybe I've been conned and I shouldn't be scaring people with stories of hell and evil gods.

Why would you be scaring people with such things? The gospel is more than just the threat of hell. It's also the promise of heaven. Certainly, you should warn people of the danger of hell, but the Bible tells us that it is the "goodness of God that leads us to repentance." Hell is a necessary part of the "Good News" that Christians are to be preaching to the world, but it is not the heart of the message by any means!

Like sending people chain letters and that kind of stuff. Spreading superstition. Maybe there are other explanations for the stories in the Bible. Maybe I should n't live my life in fear. Not good for my mental health, especially being a paranoid schizophrenic.

Of course there are "other explanations." Plenty of them. But some explanations are not as good, or as warranted, as others. And anyone who lives their life in fear as a Christian has very seriously misunderstood what being a Christian is all about. Believing what the Bible teaches about hell is not a cause of fear for me. It is, instead, a powerful provocation to encourage others toward God. As one who is saved, I no longer stand under the terrible jeopardy of God's wrath.

Peace.

 

[untunhud]

[FONT=&quot]I will try and explain what I believe more clearly. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Instead of the word 'person' I will use the phrase 'moral agent'. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]By a moral agent I mean a being with responsibility for their actions. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Thus most humans are moral agents. A robot with an artificial intelligence may be a moral agent. An alien may be a moral agent. A spirit may be a moral agent. A god might be defined as a moral agent amongst other things. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I believe in the following moral principle:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]No-one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman, degrading treatment or punishment. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I dont believe that a being exists who must sometimes break this principle for whatever reason. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Hence I dont believe that there exists a Lord God Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth; One "in whom there is no darkness at all", who hates sin with a perfect hatred , whose power and wisdom beggars our own, and whose holy presence drops men to their knees in stunned awe and fearful shame (to use your words) who also punishes people with hell. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In addition I dont think the existence of hell would be good news since it implies that at least two billion people are going to suffer cruel punishment forever, which I would have thought would fill any kind person with horror. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

 

[Ambrosius]

YouTube - Zeitgeist Debunked as False Part 1

Most of the stuff in Zeitgeist is wrong. As a pagan I can tell you most of the things they claim about pagan religions are completely fabricated, basically all the mythology, all the historical claims... it's just not accurate. It is popular because it claims to turn established history upside down but it is not substantiated by historical facts.

 

[Ambrosius]

Thanks for the info on Zeitgeist.

The stuff I've read says that you can only achieve salvation through the Orthodox Church. It gives reasons for this (see link What is Important 24 March 2010 2:02 pm), something to do with the church going back to the apostles, although I understand you cannot discover God through reason; you have to just live the faith. So I think I'll go Orthodox just in case.

I also understand that Christians will be saved from the Rapture. I'm waiting to hear from this other guy on Youtube to see if there's anything that needs to be done in preparation.

The official idea of Orthodoxy is that to be sure one should be in the Orthodox church, but there are also people who are not in it who will be saved and there are people in it who will not. There's a bible verse about this, I can't think which. Basically, there are those who belong to god's flock who are estranged from it in a physical sense just as there are wolves among those fully within it.

 

[Ambrosius]

Yes thanks, Singpeace. I have read this scholarly book by Lee Strobel, an investigative journalist taking a scientific approach to the case for Christianity.

I watched a video on Youtube about the Rapture. All this destruction. I read somewhere about the bodies of nonChristians being unearthed and laid out in eternal contempt.

I'd like to be a part of something which is about love and kindness. I'm a bit down at the moment and am not sure whether doing any research is going to make a difference. I'm leaving it for now.

Most Christians do not believe anything like that.

 

[untunhud]

Ambrosius - Watched the Zeitgeist Debunked video, thanks for posting.

Looks like you cant take anything on trust. You have to check each thing that's said or else your brain gets filled with all kinds of rubbish.

 

[aiki]

I will try and explain what I believe more clearly.

Instead of the word 'person' I will use the phrase 'moral agent'.

By a moral agent I mean a being with responsibility for their actions.

The term "moral agent" suggests a capacity to distinguish between, and to perform, right and wrong actions. Is this what you mean?

I believe in the following moral principle:

No-one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman, degrading treatment or punishment.

And what should be done to those who subject others to such treatment?

I dont believe that a being exists who must sometimes break this principle for whatever reason.

Why?

Hence I dont believe that there exists a Lord God Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth; One "in whom there is no darkness at all", who hates sin with a perfect hatred , whose power and wisdom beggars our own, and whose holy presence drops men to their knees in stunned awe and fearful shame (to use your words) who also punishes people with hell.

Yes, I know this is what you think. You've said as much in earlier posts. I have explained to you, however, that this thinking is in error for a number of reasons. You largely ignored what I asserted.

In addition I dont think the existence of hell would be good news since it implies that at least two billion people are going to suffer cruel punishment forever, which I would have thought would fill any kind person with horror.

Well, you seem to be fixated on the idea of hell and your objection to it to such a degree that you aren't really registering what I'm writing to you. Let me repeat myself:

The gospel is more than just the threat of hell. It's also the promise of heaven. Certainly, you should warn people of the danger of hell, but the Bible tells us that it is the "goodness of God that leads us to repentance." Hell is a necessary part of the "Good News" that Christians are to be preaching to the world, but it is not the heart of the message by any means!

If people go to hell, it isn't because God hasn't made a way for them to escape such a fate. He suffered deep humiliation at the hands of those whom He had made and died a horrible death on a cross to secure for us an eternity in heaven with Him.

Peace.

 

[Ambrosius]

Ambrosius - Watched the Zeitgeist Debunked video, thanks for posting.

Looks like you cant take anything on trust. You have to check each thing that's said or else your brain gets filled with all kinds of rubbish.

Yeah, that's pretty much how it has always been...

 

[untunhud]

The term "moral agent" suggests a capacity to distinguish between, and to perform, right and wrong actions. Is this what you mean?

Yes

And what should be done to those who subject others to such treatment?

Good question. Stumped.

Why?

I'll have to change my belief to that there cannot exist a being who is morally allowed/obliged to give cruel punishment without good reason. It should then be obvious why. A good reason might be to prevent worse cruelty although that is controversial.

Yes, I know this is what you think. You've said as much in earlier posts. I have explained to you, however, that this thinking is in error for a number of reasons. You largely ignored what I asserted.

There are a number of conditions that need to be satisfied when punishing someone. The person must have intended the evil consequences. Thus must know that a given action would cause the evil consequences. If possible punishment must be humane. (Tricky to decide what to do if humane punishment not possible.) Punishment must be more or less proportional to the offence. (If Alpha and Omega can exist to whom every sin is an infinite slap in the face, why not believe in the Most Superior Woman, She Who Must Be Obeyed whom every man must serve?) (I might have missed something out.) Not clear that reasons for hell you give satisfy all these conditions.

If people go to hell, it isn't because God hasn't made a way for them to escape such a fate. He suffered deep humiliation at the hands of those whom He had made and died a horrible death on a cross to secure for us an eternity in heaven with Him.

In light of response above, was this necessary?

 

[lucaspa]

Then I've been exploring different things on the internet and I came across this Zeitgeist movie. And it was saying how all these mythical beings like Horus from ancient Egypt had all these similarities to Jesus so Jesus must be a myth that was copied from other myths. There was something also about the crucifixion coming from the Sun being crucified on the Southern Cross. Also Jesus is not mentioned by historians living at the same time. Tacitus and others like him only mention him some time after the crucifixion. I cant explain these things without supposing that Jesus was some kind of myth.

So I' m coming to opposite conclusions which is very puzzling and I think I am going wrong somewhere. Any advice?

Peter, the logical flaw here is "all these similarities to Jesus so Jesus must be a myth that was copied from other myths". You have to show copying, not just similarity.

If there are a lot of stories, and there are a lot of stories when it comes to religion, then of course a few are going to resemble each other! There are only a finite number of stories out there. Get enough and, by simple chance, there are going to be similarities.

In order to state "copy" you have to show 1) a time dependence and 2) intermediate steps of the story being transplanted from one culture to another, and 3) a lot beyond casual similarity.

An example where that is done is the Noah story. That is a copy of a story in the Epic of Gilgamesh. The timing is correct, the 2 Genesis stories show intermediate steps, and the the similarity is far beyond casual.

Crucifixion, for better or worse, was a form of execution used by the Romans. They did not invent it from the sun being crucified on the Southern Cross -- because you can't see the Southern Cross from Rome! So Jesus' crucifixion is simply because that is how Romans executed people.

What parts of the Horus story are being said to be like Jesus? I see very little similarity.

 

[lucaspa]

[FONT=&quot]I believe in the following moral principle:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]No-one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman, degrading treatment or punishment. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]... [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Hence I dont believe that there exists a Lord God Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth; ...who also punishes people with hell.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
So let me give you some alternative hypotheses to the one you have.

1. From Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle in their book Inferno. Hell is an asylum for the theologically insane. We do quite a bit to people who are insane in attempts to cure them. Having unsuccessfully tried to get your attention in life, Hell exists so that God can continue to attempt to get your attention thru eternity.

2. Much of the idea of Hell for punishment comes from humans, not God. It arises from the very human idea that there should be justice. Notice that Jesus did not preach much justice. Forgiving your enemies, turning the other cheek, loving your neighbor, not throwing the first stone, etc. are not prescriptions for justice. We are told not to exact justice from the people who do us wrong; we are to love and fiorgive them. When the persecutions started people who were not harming anyone but who were being tortured, oppressed, and killed in pretty horrible ways wanted (humanlike) to think that all this injustice would be punished somehow, someday, by somebody. Jesus and God really don't promise such justice. So we have the concept of Hell; a place where justice happens. Where the people who so hurt the early Christians would get what people thought should be coming to them. The preaching of forgiveness and unconditional love did not quite take.

 

[aiki]

I'll have to change my belief to that there cannot exist a being who is morally allowed/obliged to give cruel punishment without good reason. It should then be obvious why. A good reason might be to prevent worse cruelty although that is controversial.

I think God has excellent reasons for why He punishes sin, some of which I have shared with you.

There are a number of conditions that need to be satisfied when punishing someone. The person must have intended the evil consequences. Thus must know that a given action would cause the evil consequences. If possible punishment must be humane. (Tricky to decide what to do if humane punishment not possible.) Punishment must be more or less proportional to the offence. (If Alpha and Omega can exist to whom every sin is an infinite slap in the face, why not believe in the Most Superior Woman, She Who Must Be Obeyed whom every man must serve?) (I might have missed something out.) Not clear that reasons for hell you give satisfy all these conditions.

From where do you derive these conditions? What is the source for them?

If I accidently rear-end someone while driving my car, I am held responsible and suffer, as a result, much larger insurance fees and an increase in the cost of my driver's license renewal. In a very tangible way, I am punished for doing something destructive that I did not intend to do. It doesn't matter one bit that I didn't mean to rear-end the other person's vehicle. I caused damage to the other car and reparations are in order. If I am careless with my firearm and accidently shoot someone and kill them, I will be charged under the law with manslaughter. A plea of "I didn't mean to" will not deter such charges. So it is that intent is not necessarily always a factor in determining consequences.

I'm afraid I don't understand your aside about the Alpha and Omega and the Most Superior Woman. Could you explain, please?

If people go to hell, it isn't because God hasn't made a way for them to escape such a fate. He suffered deep humiliation at the hands of those whom He had made and died a horrible death on a cross to secure for us an eternity in heaven with Him.

In light of response above, was this necessary?

Yes, it was. The horribleness of Christ's death demonstrated the magnitude of the potential for depravity in humanity, and also the tremendous depth of love and resolve Christ had in saving us from our own sin. I think it was and still is vital for these things to have been demonstrated to us.

Peace.

 

[hlaltimus]

You can also be certain about any and all so called "similarity" cases as to their resemblance to the historical figure of Jesus Christ: They all had natural fathers, but Christ didn't.

The poor, blinded Jewish people who railroaded Jesus Christ, abused him, and then crucified him, didn't have the least idea just who they had on their hands there. The very rocks of the Earth split open when this highly unique individual died, and a number of then deceased old testament saints suddenly appeared to the living Jews in Jerusalem! (Matthew 27:45-53) Jesus of Nazareth was a man who had no equals, he being properly divine and human. Because he was human, he could die as our substitute, as God cannot die....It simply can't happen. But, because He was truly divine, he still had another status of life with which to rise by, since he lost His physical life upon the cross. Nobody in history can even come close to such a singular, unexceptional, unique and awesome being. Good old Thomas had it right in John 20:28 when he exclaimed before the Christ, "My Lord and my God!"

 

[mark46]

Forgive me in advance for being long-winded. It is my nature.
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I would suggest reading some of CS Lewis. I think that he does a fine job of explaining the faith and in writing fantasies that help one understand. He has written a couple about heaven and hell: "The Screwtape Letters" and the "Great Divorce".

As Russeau said. "God created man is his image, and man being a gentleman returned the favor". Many people's and many culture's view of God is a projection and a caricature. In the West, so many want to have God as judge, giver of laws, and the giver of reqards and punishment. That legalistic view is curiously part of the worldview of both Catholics and Protestants. Sin isn't bad because God hates sin; it is bad because it harms us. God is Love and Peace, beyond all human understanding.

God is so, so beyond our understanding. It is enough to turn away from your past life (repent), accept the reality of the incarantion and the resurrection, and follow Jesus. Yes, that does mean being baptized and being part of a community of believes.

You seem to have chosen the Orthodox Church. It is not my choice. However, it is a fine choice. There is an understanding in the Eastern Church that few others seem to come close to. For the EO, we are constantly becoming more and more in union with God (theosis).

If you wish to consider the really good news. It is that you can choose to turn away from your sin nature and start to become more and more in union with God.

In an early post, you intellectualized the choice: to choose to believe and follow or not. It is an old paradigm. Consider it as a game. Consider the payoff matrix. If you believe and are wrong, what have you lost? If you choose not to believe and are wrong, you have lost much indeed. In my last church, we had a hymn: "Taste and See The Goodness of the Lord"

In the end, Jesus invites us to follow him. He gave us two commands and ask us to tell others the good news of his victory over death. If you must worry about judgement (being a Westerner), then consider what Jesus will judge.
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Matthew 25
The Sheep and the Goats

31-33"When he finally arrives, blazing in beauty and all his angels with him, the Son of Man will take his place on his glorious throne. Then all the nations will be arranged before him and he will sort the people out, much as a shepherd sorts out sheep and goats, putting sheep to his right and goats to his left.

34-36"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Enter, you who are blessed by my Father! Take what's coming to you in this kingdom. It's been ready for you since the world's foundation. And here's why:

I was hungry and you fed me,
I was thirsty and you gave me a drink,
I was homeless and you gave me a room,
I was shivering and you gave me clothes,
I was sick and you stopped to visit,
I was in prison and you came to me.'
37-40"Then those 'sheep' are going to say, 'Master, what are you talking about? When did we ever see you hungry and feed you, thirsty and give you a drink? And when did we ever see you sick or in prison and come to you?' Then the King will say, 'I'm telling the solemn truth: Whenever you did one of these things to someone overlooked or ignored, that was me—you did it to me.'
41-43"Then he will turn to the 'goats,' the ones on his left, and say, 'Get out, worthless goats! You're good for nothing but the fires of hell. And why? Because—

I was hungry and you gave me no meal,
I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
I was homeless and you gave me no bed,
I was shivering and you gave me no clothes,
Sick and in prison, and you never visited.'
44"Then those 'goats' are going to say, 'Master, what are you talking about? When did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or homeless or shivering or sick or in prison and didn't help?'
45"He will answer them, 'I'm telling the solemn truth: Whenever you failed to do one of these things to someone who was being overlooked or ignored, that was me—you failed to do it to me.' 46"Then those 'goats' will be herded to their eternal doom, but the 'sheep' to their eternal reward."

[FONT=&quot]I will try and explain what I believe more clearly. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Instead of the word 'person' I will use the phrase 'moral agent'. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]By a moral agent I mean a being with responsibility for their actions. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Thus most humans are moral agents. A robot with an artificial intelligence may be a moral agent. An alien may be a moral agent. A spirit may be a moral agent. A god might be defined as a moral agent amongst other things. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I believe in the following moral principle:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]No-one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman, degrading treatment or punishment. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I dont believe that a being exists who must sometimes break this principle for whatever reason. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Hence I dont believe that there exists a Lord God Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth; One "in whom there is no darkness at all", who hates sin with a perfect hatred , whose power and wisdom beggars our own, and whose holy presence drops men to their knees in stunned awe and fearful shame (to use your words) who also punishes people with hell. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]In addition I dont think the existence of hell would be good news since it implies that at least two billion people are going to suffer cruel punishment forever, which I would have thought would fill any kind person with horror. [/FONT]

 

[untunhud]

Peter, the logical flaw here is "all these similarities to Jesus so Jesus must be a myth that was copied from other myths". You have to show copying, not just similarity.

If there are a lot of stories, and there are a lot of stories when it comes to religion, then of course a few are going to resemble each other! There are only a finite number of stories out there. Get enough and, by simple chance, there are going to be similarities.

In order to state "copy" you have to show 1) a time dependence and 2) intermediate steps of the story being transplanted from one culture to another, and 3) a lot beyond casual similarity.

I take your point. Although if stories are very similar to each other e.g. Greek and Roman mythology I would say that one has been copied from another or else both have been copied from a common source. But that does not seem to be the case with Christian stories and other myths. Especially as Zeitgeist seems to have made up most of the similarities. So I don't think now that Christian stories have been copied from other myths.

Crucifixion, for better or worse, was a form of execution used by the Romans. They did not invent it from the sun being crucified on the Southern Cross -- because you can't see the Southern Cross from Rome! So Jesus' crucifixion is simply because that is how Romans executed people.

Point taken.

What parts of the Horus story are being said to be like Jesus? I see very little similarity.

The Zeitgeist movie listed a number of similarities which it seems were all bogus so I withdraw any claims about the Horus story being said to be like Jesus.

 

[lucaspa]

So let me get this straight. Would you agree with the following moral principle:

A person X who disobeys another person Y is committing evil against that person Y and such evil is in proportion to the greatness of Y.

Absolutely NOT! After all, Hitler was considered "great" and disobeying Hitler is a positive good.

Or you can look at Jesus disobeying the "great" Sadducees. By your logic, Jesus was doing evil. That example right there shows how wrong the "moral principle" is.

A question for you: Is something "good" because God commands it or does God command it because it is "good"?

 

[lucaspa]

I take your point. Although if stories are very similar to each other e.g. Greek and Roman mythology I would say that one has been copied from another or else both have been copied from a common source.

Ah, but there we can show both the timeline and the intermediate steps of the copying. So our conclusion that the Romans copied the Greek mythology is not based solely on the similarities.

So I don't think now that Christian stories have been copied from other myths.

Good.

The Zeitgeist movie listed a number of similarities which it seems were all bogus so I withdraw any claims about the Horus story being said to be like Jesus.

Good. Well done. It's nice to see someone change his mind when faced with contrary evidence. Again, well done.