Resolving a Paradox

[untunhud]

Hello I'm Peter Jones.

I was wondering if you could help me sort out some difficulties I have been having.

It has always seemed obvious to me that Christianity is true. There is basically the empty tomb mentioned in the Gospels as well as the appearances of Jesus to the disciples which are impossible to explain by theories like the conspiracy theory, hallucination theory, wrong tomb theory and so on. As I cant think of any other theory to explain these things so I thought it must be true. Not to mention various other reasons.

Then I've been exploring different things on the internet and I came across this Zeitgeist movie. And it was saying how all these mythical beings like Horus from ancient Egypt had all these similarities to Jesus so Jesus must be a myth that was copied from other myths. There was something also about the crucifixion coming from the Sun being crucified on the Southern Cross. Also Jesus is not mentioned by historians living at the same time. Tacitus and others like him only mention him some time after the crucifixion. I cant explain these things without supposing that Jesus was some kind of myth.

So I' m coming to opposite conclusions which is very puzzling and I think I am going wrong somewhere. Any advice?

 

[seashale76]

I've not seen Zeitgeist, but I've heard about it. If I'm not mistaken, it talks about Constantine inventing everything at the first Council of Nicea in 325 A.D. My question to you is, why would the early Church have so many martyrs, confessors, ascetics from the first century until 325 A.D. who willingly gave up everything, endured persecution, and died for a faith in Christ unless they knew something the Zeitgeist movie producers obviously didn't? It never ceases to amaze me how people come flouncing along over 2000 years later with their own myths to attempt to explain why they think Christianity is some sort of hoax based on conjecture and wishful thinking alone. What do they offer us? Pointlessness, nihilism, narcissism?

Let's look at this from a Christian perspective. There is only one God. People over time chose not to follow God but rather follow after their own whims (and those of demons) because it was easier than following God, but most world religions retain certain elements of truth in them. Any similarities between Christianity and anything else is to the credit of the pagans for not being wrong about everything. There is only one true faith and many varying degrees of deviation from it (making them false).

I'll tell you what. I spent a few years believing that there must be a God of some sort and really reading and trying to find the right religion. They all can't be right. I always thought that. The truth can't be multiple things. If that were true then it is all pointless and everyone might as well be agnostic. I never could shake Christianity. It always came back to Christianity. I didn't want it to be. However, what does one do when they are confronted with the risen Christ? I walked into that Orthodox Church for Divine Liturgy and I knew that there was a God and it was the God of the Christians. The light bulb came on and there was no more denial. My husband was agnostic, and I told him that I was going to become an Orthodox Christian whether he did or not. He came home one day with tears in his eyes and told me that Christianity was true, God was real, and he knew he had to convert as well, even though he had been attempting to ignore it. There is no denying the Real Presence in the Eucharist.

There is a lot of false imitation out there and some of it comes close. However, they fail because they have forgotten that what we want to do isn't important. It is about doing what God wants. The faith can't be intellectualized, it must be lived out. A life in Christ must be lived through participation in His Church.

My advice to you is to do your research, pray, and find a church to visit.

Find an Orthodox Church in your area: Orthodoxy in America - Home (US)
http://www.hellenicbookservice.com/Theology/orthodox%20churches.htm (UK)
http://www.antiochian-orthodox.co.uk/ (UK)
http://www.orthodoxengland.org.uk/hp.php (UK)

Resources for you:
What Is Most Important
Excerpts from the Orthodox Church by Bishop Kallistos Ware (part 1)
Excerpts from the Orthodox Church by Bishop Kallistos Ware (part 2)
P r a y e r
Let us

YouTube - Preview of "A Pilgrim's Way" Orthodox documentary
YouTube - The Orthodox Church - A visual journey

 

[untunhud]

Thank you for your reply. It has been extremely helpful.

I had forgotten that Zeitgeist said Christianity was invented at the Coucil of Niceae and obviously that cannot be true as for one thing the Gospels were written in the first century. Should have realised; which means all their other stuff could be lies too, duh!

But your knowledge of God's existence and the depth of you and your husband's feelings convinces me. I guess I am thinking too much and just need to do what God wants which I think is to love Jesus and love my neighbour. I'll follow up on your links and pray.

Before I've been going to a Church of England church (I'm in England by the way) . That should be all right, shouldn't it? I don't know if there's an Orthodox Church in my area.

Thank you again for your insight and may the Lord bless you.

Peter Jones

 

[untunhud]

No it's the Orthodox Church that is the true church. The Church of England is heretical. The only Orthodox church in Britain as far as I can see is in Colchester which is 174 miles from where I live. That's a bit worrying to say the least.

 

[seashale76]

There are Orthodox churches in the UK (it should list churches in the links around the UK- there are probably more than what I've found for you). Bishop Kallistos (who wrote the book whose excerpts I linked) is a convert himself and lives in the UK. I don't know much about the Church of England, especially as they aren't in communion with us, so I can only recommend Orthodox churches. However, we one day hope for communion to occur, just as we hope for such with the RCC eventually.

Parishes tend to be much further apart here in the US and I know people who travel a few hours to attend liturgy.

Please feel welcome to post any questions you may have at TAW. We have had a few Orthodox posters in the past who are from the UK: http://www.christianforums.com/f145/

 

[untunhud]

I did a google search and found a Russian Orthodox Church in my city. Had a moment of panic there. Mind you, I suppose I could have gone to Colchester if necessary. I was not sure how much of a strain it would be on my finances as I'm still looking for a job. But it looks as if God has found a way.

 

[aiki]

Then I've been exploring different things on the internet and I came across this Zeitgeist movie. And it was saying how all these mythical beings like Horus from ancient Egypt had all these similarities to Jesus so Jesus must be a myth that was copied from other myths. There was something also about the crucifixion coming from the Sun being crucified on the Southern Cross. Also Jesus is not mentioned by historians living at the same time. Tacitus and others like him only mention him some time after the crucifixion. I cant explain these things without supposing that Jesus was some kind of myth.

So I' m coming to opposite conclusions which is very puzzling and I think I am going wrong somewhere. Any advice?

Actually, the assertions made by the Zeitgeist movie have been soundly debunked many times. Here are a couple of links to info. on this matter:

Stand to Reason Blog: Tips on Responding to Zeitgeist
THE ZEITGEIST FRAUD |

No it's the Orthodox Church that is the true church. The Church of England is heretical. The only Orthodox church in Britain as far as I can see is in Colchester which is 174 miles from where I live. That's a bit worrying to say the least.

I'm afraid you've swallowed a bit of unbiblical dogma about what is the "true church." As far as the teaching of the Bible is concerned, there is no organization, be it Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Anglican or whatever, that is identified in Scripture as being the "true church." In contrast, the Church is a term applied in the Bible to believers in Christ as Lord and Saviour collectively. The church is not a formal organization, or a building, but simply people who love Jesus.

Peace.

 

[bibleblevr]

I had forgotten that Zeitgeist said Christianity was invented at the Coucil of Niceae and obviously that cannot be true as for one thing the Gospels were written in the first century. Should have realised; which means all their other stuff could be lies too, duh!

I have looked up some of the myths that they cite, and all the ones I looked at were nothing like what they described. That movie is full of lies, it sounds very credible but upon further examination it falls apart. Furthermore, they do things like flash tiny bits of verses that are not just out of context, but misquoted and lumped into other verses that are books away!

Just type "zeitgeist debunked" into google and Enjoy reading as people rip the movie to shreds with historical facts and sound reason.

 

[untunhud]

Thanks for the info on Zeitgeist.

The stuff I've read says that you can only achieve salvation through the Orthodox Church. It gives reasons for this (see link What is Important 24 March 2010 2:02 pm), something to do with the church going back to the apostles, although I understand you cannot discover God through reason; you have to just live the faith. So I think I'll go Orthodox just in case.

I also understand that Christians will be saved from the Rapture. I'm waiting to hear from this other guy on Youtube to see if there's anything that needs to be done in preparation.

 

[Texan40]

Not to step on anyone's toes, but even in Orthodox churches the key to salvation is the faith in Jesus Christ. There are certainly doctrinal arguments about how one "successfully" comes to Christ but isn't the important thing that you know and love Him?

To put a scriptural twist to the sentiment, are we to examine the vines or the fruit?

 

[singpeace]

Here are some authors of historical documentation concerning Jesus, his life, his miracles, and his crucifixion:

Flavius Josephus
Carius Cornelius Tacitus
Pliny the Younger
Suetonius
The Archko Volume
Thallus
Pontius Pilate
The Talmud
and the 4 Gospels: Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John

 

[singpeace]

Here are some authors of historical documentation concerning Jesus, his life, his miracles, and his crucifixion:

Flavius Josephus
Carius Cornelius Tacitus
Pliny the Younger
Suetonius
The Archko Volume
Thallus
Pontius Pilate
The Talmud
and the 4 Gospels: Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John

 

[seashale76]

There is the Church that continues in the faith that was Traditioned to the apostles by Christ. However, the good news is that Christ desires that all should repent and live and He draws people to Himself. We know where the Church is, but only God knows everyone who is in it.

 

[untunhud]

Yes I believe that knowing and loving Christ is very important. I believe I have to cling to Christ with all my strength otherwise I won't be saved. Also I can only get to know Christ properly if I take part in the church that goes right back to the apostles and Jesus, which is the Orthodox church. If I reject this church I would be in a kind of denial and I think I would be rejecting Jesus. If the Orthodox Church is not needed for salvation I don't think any harm would be done, since all Christians would be saved anyway. However, I thought it better safe than sorry.

 

[aiki]

Thanks for the info on Zeitgeist.

You're welcome.

The stuff I've read says that you can only achieve salvation through the Orthodox Church. It gives reasons for this (see link What is Important 24 March 2010 2:02 pm), something to do with the church going back to the apostles, although I understand you cannot discover God through reason; you have to just live the faith. So I think I'll go Orthodox just in case.

Um, there are a couple of things here I think you should correct in your thinking:

1. Salvation is not achieved through association with the Orthodox church or any particular Christian denomination. The Bible is crystal clear that salvation is found in a person: Jesus Christ. Anything or anyone who tells you differently, or suggests that something else must be added to this truth, is deceiving you.

2. Faith and reason are not mutually exclusive. You do discover God through reason. Of course, knowing and walking with God will take you beyond what your intellectual capacities can always comprehend, but being able to trust God when you cannot comprehend Him requires pre-existing reasons for doing so. Blind faith is a fool's faith and is not what God calls us to as Christians.

Peace.

 

[seashale76]

untunhud,

Please take my advice and do your research, pray, visit a church and speak with a priest. It is a huge decision and shouldn't be made lightly.

There are hundreds of Christian sects that have popped up over the course of two thousand years that have conflicting ideas from that which was Traditioned. Some people throw away all of Tradition except the holy scriptures (and then come to vastly differing conclusions from even each other). It's akin to reading a newspaper clipping and throwing away the rest of the newspaper. It never hurts to do your research because this is a big decision. Visit other churches if you like- the truth is compelling enough to stand up to scrutiny. If you are serious then you will need to be catechized.

Of course, salvation is only found in Christ! However, one must be baptized into Christ which makes one a member of the body of Christ (His Holy Church) and when we commune we are literally receiving the body and blood of Christ and have Christ in us.

 

[untunhud]

I was told that faith that could not be intellectualised. That is the message of the Orthodox Church videos posted above. But not everyone agrees with this. And I guess the only way I can decide who's right is by thinking about it. But then that means using reason, so I cant see how I can avoid reason. So I'll accept the point about coming to God through reason.

The document "What is Important" says that to tear people away from the true Church, the Devil tries to put false ideas about religions or heresies into people's heads. So if I use reason, I would suppose I can't tell if this is true or not. The document says that the true church is the Body of Christ and I think I remember Jesus saying something like this in the Bible. The document says there cannot be more than one Body of Christ so all the different denominations cannot each be separate Bodies of Christ. But then the whole lot all together could be the Body of Christ unless all the parts that have diverged are caused by heresies introduced by the Devil. But if the Bible puts stress on Jesus being the way of salvation then it should not matter what these heresies are, as long as Jesus is at the centre of it all. So there would be no point in the Devil trying to spread heresies since they would not make any difference. (Unless it contradicted Jesus being the path of salvation). So all the different denominations are not heretical. I hope I got this right. So I guess I accept your second point as well Aiki.

Then there is faith. I would guess you would use reason to try and find out when faith is a good thing. But I am not very sure what faith is and thus I wouldn't have any idea when to rely on it.

 

[seashale76]

You capitulate awfully easily to everyone. Are you serious or playing a game with us?

 

[untunhud]

Lost my post so I had to write it all again! I dont want people to think I am a bigot. Also I am frightened of eternal suffering. People seem so confident of their beliefs that I think to myself what if? However if these beliefs clash with each other I think I have to use reason. Although it is still a good idea to talk with people and do research etc just to be sure of making the right decision. But I would have to see that any traditions outside the Bible are supported by reason as well as the Bible itself. I hope I dont get knocked down by a bus before Ive had a chance to finish all this research. That would be just my luck.

 

[Poltionorch]

Let me begin by stating that I do not wish to offend you or your beliefs. If you find that I am out of line by what I'm about to say, please pm me and I'll take your comment into consideration for the next time I respond.

Now then, let me ask you this question. Is it absolutely necessary for you to have to believe in the literal truth of the resurrection story to keep your faith? Is it not an option to look at those stories in the bible as symbolical tales to help explain a certain moral or certain values? I understand Jesus used stories to explain the essence of his morals and values. Perhaps you can view the bible as such.

So yes, maybe the early Christians found inspiration in other stories from other religions. But I do not think that this should be an obstacle in accepting Christianity as your faith. Truth be told, all of the great religions have used stories and traditions from other religions and adapted them for their own needs. I don't really think that it's that big of a deal.

I've not seen Zeitgeist, but I've heard about it. If I'm not mistaken, it talks about Constantine inventing everything at the first Council of Nicea in 325 A.D. My question to you is, why would the early Church have so many martyrs, confessors, ascetics from the first century until 325 A.D. who willingly gave up everything, endured persecution, and died for a faith in Christ unless they knew something the Zeitgeist movie producers obviously didn't?

I haven't seen the movie myself, but aren't they simply stating the facts? Do not forget that in its early years, Christianity was basicly a cult. And fanatics and cults walk hand in hand.