Requirements of Salvation

FreeGrace2 said:

I said:
"Again, you are showing your compete misunderstanding of the gospel. Salvation and eternal life are described as gifts. Gifts are given. In order to possess an offered gift, one MUST receive the gift. .

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There is a difference between "accepting" and "receiving"
I already explained this.. I will do it one more time.

In your gospel a man is sitting in a chair and God offers
a gift and the man must REACH OUT and accept or receive
the gift. That is a "works gospel"

In my gospel a man is sitting in a chair and God
PLACES the gift in my lap... I do NOTHING to receive
that gift.

You have a gospel of works.
I have a gospel of Grace without works.


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FreeGrace2 said:

The gift of salvation is given ONLY to those who believe.

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So... if the gift of salvation is ONLY given to some then
the Atonement only PAID for some. It's that simple.

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FreeGrace2 said:

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He died for everyone. That means He paid for the sins of everyone ever born..

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If the Atonement PAID for the sins of everyone then all debts
have been paid and NOBODY can be sent into the Lake of Fire.

So you are REALLY saying those in the Lake of Fire are paying
for the SINGLE SIN of not "accepting" Christ. But the Bible
is very clear, men in the Lake are paying for their own sins
(every idle word and even sinful thoughts)

You cannot have it BOTH WAYS
If Jesus PAID for all sins the all sins are PAID.

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FreeGrace2 said:

John 1:12 - Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
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Yes, but the CONTEXT of that verse is the elect.
The CONTEXT is not the "children of Satan"

You cannot expect to understand the MEANING of a passage
until you FIRST understand the CONTEXT of that passage.

You quoted verse 12 and you IGNORED verse 13 which
DEFINES the CONTEXT of verse 12 is ONLY the elect.

Joh 1:12-13
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to
become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh,
nor of the will of man, but of God.


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FreeGrace2 said:

However, what do you do with Acts 17:26-27?
26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands.
27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.
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I don't "do" anything with the verse except understand the CONTEXT.

Here is the CONTEXT
NO MAN will seek after God (no, not even one) Rom 3:10-12

Here is the CONTEXT again
NO MAN can come to Christ unless the Father first "draws" them
and ALL MEN the Father draws "shall come" to Christ [John 6]

Do you REALLY think Acts 17:27 is talking about
Moslems and Hindus and Buddhists and Atheists and
Agnostics and Secular Humanists and Pagans and
Satanists?

Is that the CONTEXT of verse 27?
Only a fool would believe that.

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You said:
They receive the gift when they believe the Savior. John 1:12 says so.


But the BIBLE contradicts you
You say they receive the gift WHEN THEY BELIEVE...

The BIBLE says it has NOTHING to do with anything men do...

Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood,
nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man,
but of God.

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FreeGrace2 said:

Why is that a problem for you? When a person hears the gospel (good news) and realizes that Jesus Christ died on the cross for them, paid for their sins and gives the gift of eternal life to those who believe in Him so that they will avoid hell and live with God in heaven for eternity, YOU BET that's the right decision.
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So you finally ADMIT that men MUST ACT before they are saved.
That is a (false) "works gospel" since the Bible teaches that
men only repent AFTER they are regenerated.

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FreeGrace2 said:

For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

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And WHO can "believe"?

Act_13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad,
and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ORDAINED
to eternal life believed.

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I said:
"This is what I actually said: "It's not about getting into heaven."
Of course it occurs in heaven. But the parable isn't about getting into heaven."

5thKingdom said:

You have just built a STRAWMAN.

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You are free to think whatever you want.

I never said the wedding feast is "about getting into heaven"
So your response above is just a deflection to save face.

I said the wedding feast is IN HEAVEN.

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Do you really not remember what you had posted?

5thKingdom said:

Simple question for you:

Does Romans 9 teach that God create both
"vessels of mercy" (those who He saves) and
"vessels of destruction" (those who He has not intention of saving)?

Yes or No?

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Romans 9 does NOT SAY that there are "vessels of wrath" that are created. I already noted that. Don't you read my posts?

So your question is moot.

5thKingdom said:

If Jesus died for everyone... then everyone would be saved because their sins are PAID.

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Well, you clearly do not understand anything about salvation, as I suspected. Paying for one's sins doesn't result in salvation, as you have presumed.

In fact, the Bible says plainly that Christ died for everyone.

John 1:29 Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world.
John 4:42 This One is indeed the Savior of the world.
John 17:21 that they may all be one, even as thou, Father, art in Me, and I in thee, that they also may be in Us: that the world may believe that Thou didst send Me.
Rom 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass (Adam’s Fall) was condemnation for all (pas) men, so also the result of one act of righteousness (Cross) was justification that brings life for all (pas) men. [Adam’s fall affects the entire human race, and Christ’s atonement also affects the entire human race]
Luke 19:10 "For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost." In 5 point Calvinism, elect aren’t really “lost” since they were elected, so just what does this verse mean? Obviously, the entire human race is lost and is in need of a Savior. So the Son of Man came to seek and save the entire human race.
2 Cor 5:14,15 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And He died for all (pas), that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for Him who died for them and was raised again.
2 Cor 5:19 that God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone (pas).
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all (pas) men.
*** 1 Tim 2:3,4 This is good and pleases God our Savior, who wants all (pas) men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth (Christ-Jn 14:6, Jn 8:32, 12:32) Note the potential: Christ wants all men to be saved. The concept of limited atonement just doesn’t fly in light of this verse.
1 Tim 2:6 Who gave Himself as a ransom for all (pas) men, the testimony given in its proper time.
*** 1 Tim 4:10 (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all (pas) men, and especially (malista) of those who believe.
Malista: chiefly, most of all, specially
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, (has not predetermined that) but everyone (pas) to come to repentance.
*** 1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole (holos) world. Holos: all, all together, every whit, throughout, whole

Now...
I understand Jesus died for the world (both Jew and Gentile)
but He did not PAY for the sins of everyone ever born.

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This just proves beyond all doubt that you know nothing about why Jesus died for the world. What do you think He was dying for the world then, if not to pay their sin debt?

(1) If Jesus PAID for the sins of "His Sheep" then ALL of His sheep will be saved... since their sins were PAID.

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There are NO verses that say that Jesus died for "His sheep". Read John 10, please. He says plainly that He would die for THE sheep, and that in the context of His noting there were "His sheep" and "those NOT of His sheep".

[(2) If Jesus PAID for the sins of EVERYONE (your false gospel)
then one of two things are true. Either (a) those in the Lake
of Fire must PAY for the SAME SINS that Jesus Paid... making
His Atonement of no effect or (b) those in the Lake are just
paying for the SINGLE SIN of not "accepting Christ... and that
notion contradicts the Bible which teaches men pay for their
sin (every idle word - and even evil thoughts).

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I recommend that you actually read the Scripture. Esp Rev 20:15 to learn WHY people will be cast into the lake of fire. It isn't because of sin, as you erroneously believe.

Rev 20:15 - Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Very simple. Those people didn't accept the free gift. Nothing about sin.

So... in MY GOSPEL Jesus PAID for "His Sheep" and it's done.

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Ha. Yes, it sure is YOUR gospel and NOT the gospel of the Bible.

You can't show me ANY verse that supports YOUR gospel.

There is no condemnation for the elect because the debt is paid.

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No. There is no condemnation for believers because they have believed.

But again, you don't know Scripture.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

1 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

These 2 verses prove that condemnation is based on who "has not believed".

But... in YOUR GOSPEL (a) the Atonement was conditional on
whether man "accepts" Jesus. You are saying that Jesus
PAID for their sins - but then that payment is revoked when
someone does not believe or (b) you are saying that those
in the Lake are paying for the SINGLE SIN of not "accepting"
Jesus.. when the Bible is clear man pay for EVERY sin
(every idle word and even sinful thoughts)

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See above.

My Gospel is the Gospel of the Bible.

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Not even close.

Your gospel was declared heresy by the early church
(when it was called Semi-Pelagianism) and by the
Protestant Reformer when it was called Arminianism.

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I'm no Arminian. They believe the heresy that salvation can be lost.

If you study some church history you will see that I am telling you the truth.

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I would conclude that you don't know the truth.

5thKingdom said:

In your gospel a man is sitting in a chair and God offers a gift and the man must REACH OUT and accept or receive the gift. That is a "works gospel"

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And, again, your OPINION of what I believe is totally erroneous.

I don't have anyone sitting in a chair. How ridiculous. The better analogy is a drowning man in the ocean, and Jesus Christ throwing a life line directly to the man. He can grab hold or ignore the life line. His choice. But if he grabs it, and Jesus Christ pulls him in to ground, do you really think that man has any basis for bragging about how he "held on" to the life line and saved himself?? How stupid a thought. No one would accept that kind of thinking.

In my gospel a man is sitting in a chair and God PLACES the gift in my lap... I do NOTHING to receive that gift.

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What you have is limited atonement. Calvinism is disproven from the verses I shared above. Christ died for the world. That is what paid the debt of sin.

You have a gospel of works.

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You just have no idea.

I have a gospel of Grace without works.

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Grace?? Are you serious? Tell that to all the ones in YOUR gospel who weren't given the gift.

5thKingdom said:

So... if the gift of salvation is ONLY given to some then
the Atonement only PAID for some. It's that simple.

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You just keep showing how little you understand of the Scriptures. lol

5thKingdom said:

If the Atonement PAID for the sins of everyone then all debts
have been paid and NOBODY can be sent into the Lake of Fire.

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What you keep failing to understand is that in order to live with God in eternity, you have to have God's life, which is eternal. If you don't have that gift, you can't live with Him. The gift is free to all, as already proven from Scripture.

So you are REALLY saying those in the Lake of Fire are paying for the SINGLE SIN of not "accepting" Christ. But the Bible is very clear, men in the Lake are paying for their own sins (every idle word and even sinful thoughts)

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No, they aren't paying for anything. They are existing there because they don't have eternal life. There's no other place for them.

You cannot have it BOTH WAYS If Jesus PAID for all sins the all sins are PAID.

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Or course they are. The lake of fire is for those who aren't qualified to live with God in eternity. They didn't receive the free gift that was offered.

This isn't about sin. Jesus removed the sin barrier between man and God. Haven't you ever heard that before?

Then consider 2 For 5:19 - that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

Please don't twist this verse to mean that "the world" are ONLY believers. Won't fly.

The world means everyone. Heb 2:9 says everyone. 2 John 2:2 says the whole world.

Learn to accept what Scripture says.

I said:
"John 1:12 - Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—"

5thKingdom said:

Yes, but the CONTEXT of that verse is the elect. The CONTEXT is not the "children of Satan"

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Prove your claim that the context of John 1:12 is about "the elect".

You quoted verse 12 and you IGNORED verse 13 which DEFINES the CONTEXT of verse 12 is ONLY the elect.

Joh 1:12-13
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to
become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh,
nor of the will of man, but of God.

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lol. v.13 says nothing about being elect. It teaches that being born again is God's choice, not man's. It says nothing about the act of believing is God's choice either.

iow, when a person believes in Christ for salvation, God chooses to regenerate the believer. But I understand that you don't believe this.

5thKingdom said:

Do you REALLY think Acts 17:27 is talking about Moslems and Hindus and Buddhists and Atheists and
Agnostics and Secular Humanists and Pagans and Satanists?

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I cannot imagine what you think v.27 is about, but it's real clear that Paul was referring to the whole human race.

5thKingdom said:

So you finally ADMIT that men MUST ACT before they are saved.

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No. They must believe.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

5thKingdom said:

And WHO can "believe"?

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Everyone can. Most don't.

Act_13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad,
and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ORDAINED
to eternal life believed.

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Do some homework on the word "tasso" poorly translated "ordained" or "appointed". The word came from the military and was about lining up in order.

biblehub.com shows that the verb voice is "middle-passive", meaning it can't be determined by the form, since both middle and passive voice are the SAME. So, the only way to determine which voice the writer/speaker meant is to look at context.

And the context favors the middle voice, from v.44 - On the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord.

Do you understand what this means? It means there was a very large crowd gathered to hear Paul the next Sabbath. In that scenario, the Gentiles would have had to line themselves up in order to hear Paul.

There is no mention of God, so one can't just ASSUME that Luke meant that God was doing the 'tasso'. The middle voice means the subject acts upon themselves.

So you have no right to ASSUME Luke meant the passive voice, which would indicate that someone else (God) was lining them up.

FreeGrace2 said:

No. They must believe.

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I am sorry, I cannot respond to post #177
because you offered no Scripture.

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FreeGrace2 said:

I cannot imagine what you think v.27 is about, but it's real clear that Paul was referring to the whole human race.

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Rom 3:10-12
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
There is none that understandeth, there is none that
seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way,
they are together become unprofitable; there is none that
doeth good, no, not one.

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