Requirements of Salvation

[5thKingdom]

As I said, there is nothing about "vessels of wrath" being "created". They are "fitted to destruction", which in the Greek is a single word, katartizo. It is NEVER translated as "created".
So, thanks again.

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay,
of the same lump to MAKE one vessel unto honour,
and another unto dishonour?

Clearly God MAKES (or brings forth) some vessels of honor
(the wheat) and other vessels of dishonor (the tares).

How do you get around this verse?

.

 

[FreeGrace2]

If God chooses/elects us before the foundation of the world then HOW is that election based on what we believe thousands of years later, during our lifetime?

I don't know what you mean by "election". You need to define the word before I can answer your question. Thanks.

The question is NOT that God is pleased to have preaching cause some to believe [1Co 1:21] the question is how ANY are able to believe.

The answer is that everyone was given a conscience by God, so that everyone CAN know right from wrong. Rom 2:14,15

And the Bible declares that NONE can ever "believe" unless they are chosen (before the foundation of the world) to believe.

I don't believe you. Please quote the verse that makes this "declaration" before I can believe it. Thanks.

Before regeneration we are DEAD men. Dead men cannot believe.

It seems you have confused physical death with spiritual death.

When Adam sinned, he was immediately spiritually separated from God. Yet, when God spoke with him, he was able to both hear God and respond to God.

It seems to me that you are arguing that MAN starts the process of salvation by "believing"... while the Bible argues that NONE can believe unless the Father FIRST "draws" them.

Well, what you "seem to think" is totally wrohg. And I'm happy to inform you of the truth of what I AM arguing.

Salvation is God's plan. Not man's. God thought it up. Not man. God does all the action in the plan. Not man.

So, God BEGAN the "process" (your word, not mine, since salvation isn't a process anyway). How did He do it? He revealed His divine attributes through creation, per Romans 1:19-21, so that no one (not any person) has an excuse for not recognizing the existence of God as divine Creator and being thankful to Him (same verses).

God also gave humanity a conscience by which man has the inner ability to know right from wrong.

Actually, all man can do is receive the free gift of eternal life. Which God does the giving.

Do you see the difference?

Hopefully you have been informed of the truth.

In your gospel MAN initiates the salvation process.

I just proved otherwise. I hope you learned.

In my gospel God initiates the salvation process.

I just proved that is my belief.

These are two different gospels and (at best)
only ONE can be the True Gospel.

Well, I've given you what I believe. I hope you can figure it out.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to MAKE one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Clearly God MAKES (or brings forth) some vessels of honor (the wheat) and other vessels of dishonor (the tares).

How do you get around this verse?

I don't have to "get around" anything. You just have no clue about what I've been posting.

The same 2 words in v.21 (honor and dishonor) are found in 2 Tim 2:20, but translated "special purposes" and "common use" in reference to household articles.

They are the SAME Greek words as found in Rom 9:21. iow, God creates some people for special purposes, and some for common purposes.

God doesn't create people for evil or dishonor. That' quite unbiblical. And goes directly against James 1:13 - When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;

Since He doesn't tempt (with evil) anyone, it should be obvious that He doesn't create anyone to be evil.

And v.22 STILL doesn't say that creates people for destruction. They actually destroy themselves by ignoring God's plan and the good news of how to be saved from destruction.

 

[5thKingdom]

I said:
If God chooses/elects us before the foundation of the world then
HOW is that election based on what we believe thousands
of years later, during our lifetime?

I don't know what you mean by "election". You need to define
the word before I can answer your question. Thanks.

(1) The "chosen/elect" are those who God saves:
We see this in the example below which is talking abut
the Final Harvest of the Great Tribulation Saints.

Mat 24:22,24,31
24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
24:31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet,
and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds,
from one end of heaven to the other.


(2) The "chosen/elect" are those who God decides to save
before the foundation of the world... long before we are born or
have heard the Gospel or have done anything good or evil.

Eph 1:4-5
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation
of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him
in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


(3) The "chosen/elect" are those who God Calls.
Salvation is not because of any "works" it is totally
dependent on whether God CALLS a person or not.

Rom 9:11
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth


(4) The "chosen/elect" are those who God (a) foreknows
and (b) who He predestinates to be conformed into the image of Jesus
and (c) who He "draws" or Calls and (d) who He justifies and (e) who He glorifies.

Rom 8:28-33
And we know that all things work together for good to them
that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us [the elect], who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, [the elect] how shall he not with him also freely give us [the elect] all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.


(5) The "chosen/elect" are those who God saves.
While MANY are called by the Gospel... FEW are "chosen"
to inherit eternal life.

Mat 22:14
For many are called [by the Gospel],
but few are chosen. [to become saved]


(6) My personal favorite passage showing the "election" of God
is found in John 6. Jesus explains to His disciples that NO MAN
can come to Him unless the Father FIRST "draws" them. And
ALL MEN the Father draws "shall come" to Him... and He will
lose NONE of "His Sheep".

When His disciples realized that Jesus was teaching salvation
by ELECTION, many of them abandoned Him [John 6:65-66]

Now, WHY on earth would anyone abandon the Son of God?
The answer is obvious. They did not WANT a Sovereign God.
They (like most men today) wanted a salvation program where
MEN are Sovereign, where men decide when/where/how they can
be saved - through some WORK that they can do... like saying the
"sinner's prayer", or making an altar call, or taking water baptism,
or deciding to "accept" Jesus, or "trust" or "believe" or "receive".
When Christ was clear NO MAN can come to Him unless the
Father "draws" them and ALL MEN the Father draws come.

And we have seen (above) that God "elects/chooses" who
He will save before the foundation of the world and that election
is according to "His pleasure"... not because of any act of man.

Joh 6:44
NO MAN can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me
draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:37
All that the Father giveth me SHALL COME to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Joh 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.


The BIG PICTURE is this:

After Adam rebelled we were all born spiritually DEAD.
So NO MAN can seek God (no, not even one) Romans 3:10-12

So God "elected/chose" who He would "draw" before the foundation
of the world. And ALL that God elected/chose would become saved
at some point in their life.


Rom 9:15-16
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.


Eph 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that [Faith is] not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man
should boast.


/

 

[5thKingdom]

The answer is that everyone was given a conscience by God, so that everyone CAN know right from wrong. Rom 2:14,15

Rom 2:14-15
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.

I would suggest you can add Romans 1:18-23
Since that passage also shows that God has made it clear
to everyone ever born that He exists... but that is not the point.
Knowing there is a God and "seeking" the Creator are two very
different things. Remember, Romans 3:10-12 tells us that
(even though they KNOW God exists NONE seek Him...
no, not even one)

We are not saved by "knowing right from wrong".
So there is no POINT of showing that men are born with
that knowledge. It may make them more moral (less evil)
but it will NEVER get them saved.

Rom 1:18-23
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

And so... it is not a matter of KNOWING there is a God.
It is a matter of "seeking" the True God. And, because we are
all born spiritually dead we are not capable of seeking God. Our
sin nature prevents that from ever happening. NO MAN will ever
seek God unless He first "draws" them.

All (real) repentance is the RESULT of regeneration... not the cause.
God "elects/chooses" who He will save because NO MAN will ever
seek Him or find Him on their own.

/

 

[5thKingdom]

The same 2 words in v.21 (honor and dishonor) are found in 2 Tim 2:20, but translated "special purposes" and "common use" in reference to household articles.

They are the SAME Greek words as found in Rom 9:21. iow, God creates some people for special purposes, and some for common purposes.

.

You have said it yourself.
God creates some people for "special purposes" (to be saved)
and the rest are common (left unsaved)


/

 

[5thKingdom]

And v.22 STILL doesn't say that creates people for destruction. They actually destroy themselves by ignoring God's plan and the good news of how to be saved from destruction.

But that is the POINT isn't it?
Because of Adam's rebellion ALL MEN are spiritually DEAD.
They cannot "seek" God [Rom 3:10-12]... not even one of them.

You like to talk about the "good news" that God provided a Savior
but you forget to talk about the BAD NEWS that NO MAN will ever
come to Christ. Therefore God must "draw" certain men that He
has "chosen/elected" from the foundation of the world.

They are the "special vessels" you talked about.
The rest of mankind remains spiritually DEAD in Satan's Kingdom,
they are the "common vessels".

They cannot "choose God"... they are spiritually DEAD.

Eph 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Eph 2:4-5
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, [the elect] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved


/

 

[5thKingdom]

It seems you have confused physical death with spiritual death.
When Adam sinned, he was immediately spiritually separated from God. Yet, when God spoke with him, he was able to both hear God and respond to God.

Do you REALLY think that I am "confused" about spiritual DEATH
and physical DEATH?

If you want to continue to have conversations with me then you
MUST be intellectually honest.

Of course I know the difference.

The fact that God spoke to Adam after the fall in NO WAY means
Adam was saved... Adam and Eve needed a Savior just like all of
their children needed a Savior.

So again, it is not a matter of knowing right from wrong
because ONE SIN is enough to send you to the Lake of Fire.
The only way to not suffer eternal torment is to have a Savior.
And yet that SAME SAVIOR declares that NO MAN can come to
Him... unless the Father "draws" them and ALL MEN the Father
draws "shall come" to Him.

You have to START at the beginning.
ALL MEN are going to hell. The ONLY way to avoid that
is to have a Savior. And the ONLY way to have a Savior
is for God to "chose/elect" you and "draw" you to Christ.

.

 

[5thKingdom]

Actually, all man can do is receive the free gift of eternal life. Which God does the giving..

Yes... God does the giving.
But He only gives to those He "chose/elected" before the foundation
of the world.

If a man is NOT "chosen/elected" before the foundation of the world
then he REMAINS spiritually DEAD and destined to the Lake of Fire.

God did not "choose/elect" everyone ever born... or else
there would be nobody in hell. And hell will be heavily populated.

/

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"I don't know what you mean by "election". You need to define
the word before I can answer your question. Thanks."

I said:
If God chooses/elects us before the foundation of the world then
HOW is that election based on what we believe thousands
of years later, during our lifetime?

(1) The "chosen/elect" are those who God saves:
We see this in the example below which is talking abut
the Final Harvest of the Great Tribulation Saints.

Your definition is unbiblical. Election is NEVER about salvation. But I encourage you to do some actual research and find ANY verse that shows that election is for salvation.

Mat 24:22,24,31
24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
24:31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet,
and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds,
from one end of heaven to the other.

What Jesus said refers only to Jews, since during Jesus' time on earth, only Jews were described as being "the chosen ones".

(2) The "chosen/elect" are those who God decides to save
before the foundation of the world... long before we are born or
have heard the Gospel or have done anything good or evil.

Eph 1:4-5
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation
of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him
in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

The word "us" in v.4 is defined specifically in Eph 1:19 as "believers". So v.4 is about God choosing believers to be holy and blameless. This isn't about salvation.

(3) The "chosen/elect" are those who God Calls.
Salvation is not because of any "works" it is totally
dependent on whether God CALLS a person or not.

Rom 9:11
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

God's purpose according to election is clearly seen in ALL the examples of who the Bible describes at being 'elect'.

Examples of Election

1. Election of Christ: Isa 42:1 "Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations.
Matt 12:18 "Behold, My Servant whom I have chosen; My Beloved in whom My soul is well-pleased; I will put My Spirit upon Him, And He shall proclaim justice to the Gentiles.
Luke 9:35 And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!"
Luke 23:35 And the people stood by, looking on. And even the rulers were sneering at Him, saying, "He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, His Chosen One.
1 Peter 2:6 For this is contained in Scripture: "Behold I lay in Zion a choice stone, a precious corner stone, And he who believes in Him shall not be disappointed."
2. Election of Israel: Amos 3:2 "You only have I chosen among all the families of the earth; Therefore, I will punish you for all your iniquities."
Deut 7:6 "For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
3. Election of Angels: 1 Tim 5:21 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality.
4. Election of the Church or body of Christ: Eph 1:4a just as He chose us (believers) in Him…
5. Other elections:
Paul: Acts 9:15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel;
Apostles: John 6:70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”

It is obvious that NONE of these examples were for salvation.

(4) The "chosen/elect" are those who God (a) foreknows
and (b) who He predestinates to be conformed into the image of Jesus
and (c) who He "draws" or Calls and (d) who He justifies and (e) who He glorifies.

Rom 8:28-33
And we know that all things work together for good to them
that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us [the elect], who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, [the elect] how shall he not with him also freely give us [the elect] all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

There is NO mention of salvation in this passage. But, speaking of "foreknowing", please study 1 Pet 1:2 - who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

Here, we see clearly that election is based on foreknowledge, the red words, and the purpose of election is FOR SERVICE, the blue words.

(5) The "chosen/elect" are those who God saves.
While MANY are called by the Gospel... FEW are "chosen"
to inherit eternal life.

Mat 22:14
For many are called [by the Gospel],
but few are chosen. [to become saved]

Why should I accept the bracketed words, since they DON'T occur in the original? You're only showing your opinion again.

(6) My personal favorite passage showing the "election" of God
is found in John 6. Jesus explains to His disciples that NO MAN
can come to Him unless the Father FIRST "draws" them. And
ALL MEN the Father draws "shall come" to Him... and He will
lose NONE of "His Sheep".

When His disciples realized that Jesus was teaching salvation
by ELECTION, many of them abandoned Him [John 6:65-66]

Now, WHY on earth would anyone abandon the Son of God?

Did you read FAR enough in chapter 6? Such as v.70?

The answer is obvious. They did not WANT a Sovereign God.
They (like most men today) wanted a salvation program where
MEN are Sovereign, where men decide when/where/how they can
be saved - through some WORK that they can do... like saying the
"sinner's prayer", or making an altar call, or taking water baptism,
or deciding to "accept" Jesus, or "trust" or "believe" or "receive".
When Christ was clear NO MAN can come to Him unless the
Father "draws" them and ALL MEN the Father draws come.

While you stress John 6:44, you really need to read the NEXT verse, which explains WHO will be drawn to Jesus.

v.45 - It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

What is clear is that though God has taught "all", only those who have listened and learned will come to Jesus. Again, free will. Not God choosing who will come.

And we have seen (above) that God "elects/chooses" who
He will save before the foundation of the world and that election
is according to "His pleasure"... not because of any act of man.

Again, Eph 1:4 DOESN'T SAY "that God elects who He will save before the foundation of the world. In fact, as I've already proven, the word "us" refers to believers, which totally refutes your opinion.

Joh 6:44
NO MAN can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me
draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

It is only those who have listened and learned who will come to Jesus. v.45.

Joh 6:37
All that the Father giveth me SHALL COME to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Nothing about God choosing who will believe.

Joh 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

This is about eternal security, and has nothing to do with election.

The BIG PICTURE is this:

After Adam rebelled we were all born spiritually DEAD.
So NO MAN can seek God (no, not even one) Romans 3:10-12

So God "elected/chose" who He would "draw" before the foundation
of the world. And ALL that God elected/chose would become saved
at some point in their life.

None of the verses you've quoted has anything to do with election for salvation.

Back to the drawing board.

Rom 9:15-16
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Do you have any idea to whom God has mercy on??

Isa 55:7 - Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

The red words are what a man does, and the blue words are God's response to man's action. Whether you like it or not.

Eph 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that [Faith is] not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man
should boast.

And just what are you trying to prove with these verses? They show that salvation is by grace, through faith, and not of works.

Again, NOTHING about election to salvation.

Again, you have NOT proven your opinions.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"The answer is that everyone was given a conscience by God, so that everyone CAN know right from wrong. Rom 2:14,15"

Rom 2:14-15
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.

I would suggest you can add Romans 1:18-23
Since that passage also shows that God has made it clear
to everyone ever born that He exists... but that is not the point.

It absolutely IS the point. No one has any excuse for NOT recognizing the Creator and being thankful to Him.

These verses prove that God has already made the first move towards man's salvation.

Knowing there is a God and "seeking" the Creator are two very
different things.

Well, of course there is. Many don't care. But, what's your point?

Remember, Romans 3:10-12 tells us that
(even though they KNOW God exists NONE seek Him...
no, not even one)

Are you aware of the OT passage that Paul was quoting? I'll let you do some research. It is for sure that those referred to in the OT passage don't seek Him.

We are not saved by "knowing right from wrong".

I never said that. The FACT that man has a God given conscience means they are responsible for their actions. Something they are aware of.

So there is no POINT of showing that men are born with
that knowledge. It may make them more moral (less evil)
but it will NEVER get them saved.

Sorry that you don't think so. But it's true, nonetheless.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You have said it yourself.
God creates some people for "special purposes" (to be saved)
and the rest are common (left unsaved)

I never said what you have falsely claimed. You are again ONLY providing your own opinion. Which isn't Scripture.

You do have a rather active imagination, though.

 

[FreeGrace2]

But that is the POINT isn't it?
Because of Adam's rebellion ALL MEN are spiritually DEAD.
They cannot "seek" God [Rom 3:10-12]... not even one of them.

You need to find the OT passage that Paul was quoting in v.10-12. Those being referred to in the OT passage certainly don't seek Him.

But there are many verses that DO say that men seek God. In fact, Paul preached to the Athenians that God created mankind and placed them WHEN and WHERE in history so that they would SEEK Him. Check it out yourself:
Acts 17:26,27

You like to talk about the "good news" that God provided a Savior
but you forget to talk about the BAD NEWS that NO MAN will ever
come to Christ.

How ridiculous. Many have come to Christ. I have. Paul preached and many came to Christ from His preaching.

In fact, he said this about the gospel:
Rom 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

Therefore God must "draw" certain men that He
has "chosen/elected" from the foundation of the world.

The "elect" of Eph 1:4 are believers already. 1:19 defines the "us" as believers.

They are the "special vessels" you talked about.

No they aren't.
The rest of mankind remains spiritually DEAD in Satan's Kingdom,
they are the "common vessels".

 

[FreeGrace2]

Do you REALLY think that I am "confused" about spiritual DEATH
and physical DEATH?

My opinion is that you are confused about a whole host of things biblical.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes... God does the giving.
But He only gives to those He "chose/elected" before the foundation
of the world.

I've already proven that election is NOT for salvation.

You've NOT proven that it is.

 

[5thKingdom]

. Election is NEVER about salvation.

You are just hilarious... election is NOT about salvation.


Eph 1:4-5
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation
of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure
of His will,


Rom 9:11
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth


Rom 8:28-33
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You are just hilarious... election is NOT about salvation.

Always happy to make you smile. Howvever, you still have not proven your theory that election is for salvation. When are you going to decide to find some proof?

Eph 1:4-5
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation
of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

I wish you would read what I post. I have already given you the evidence that the "us" in v.4 is defined in 1:19 as "us who believe". There is nothing in between v.4 and v.19 that changes who the "us" are.

So, Eph 1:4 says that God has chosen believers...to be holy and blameless.

This proves that salvation is not the purpose of election. But service IS the purpose.

And I gave you all the examples of who is described as being elect in Scripture. None are for salvation, and ALL of the examples are for service, including the Lord Jesus Chrit, the Chosen One.

Rom 9:11
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

What does this verse say about the purpose of election?

Rom 8:28-33
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Once again, please just highlight the specific words that prove that election is for salvation. I don't see any such words. None of the underlined red words say what you think.

Try again.

 

[5thKingdom]

I wish you would read what I post. I have already given you the evidence that the "us" in v.4 is defined in 1:19 as "us who believe". There is nothing in between v.4 and v.19 that changes who the "us" are.
.

That is hilarious.
You have it exactly backward
You are pretending we "believed" before the foundation of the world.

I cannot imagine anyone being more confused as you.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

You are just a waste of time.
You just keep on pretending we "believed" before the foundation
of the world... LOL

.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"I wish you would read what I post. I have already given you the evidence that the "us" in v.4 is defined in 1:19 as "us who believe". There is nothing in between v.4 and v.19 that changes who the "us" are."

That is hilarious.
You have it exactly backward You are pretending we "believed" before the foundation of the world.

You simply do not read very carefully, if that is your conclusion from what I posted. So, it is YOUR opinion that is hilarious.

What I proved is that the word "us" in v.4 means the same thing as used in v.19.

But, since you find that so hilarious, please prove me wrong from the context. Can you do that?

I cannot imagine anyone being more confused as you.

Said the very confused poster.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

You are just a waste of time.

Ad hominem aside, the point of v.4 is that made a CHOICE that was "before the foundation of the world" that included ALL who would believe.

Why is that so difficult to understand? It's perfectly clear.

So, let me take you through it slowly.

Before God created the world, He made a decision to elect everyone who would believe in the human race, even before there was a human race.

See? Not difficult to grasp at all.

You just keep on pretending we "believed" before the foundation
of the world... LOL

How you come to this ridiculous conclusion is quite baffling. But it does reveal just how confused your conclusions are.

The verse is NOT ABOUT when people believe. It's about God's CHOICE before the human race existed.

 

[5thKingdom]

Before God created the world, He made a decision to elect everyone who would believe in the human race, even before there was a human race. See? Not difficult to grasp at all.

Of course the PROBLEM with your theory that God chose
the elect based on knowing they would believe is the BIBLE
claims God chose His elect NOT on their works (believing)
but ONLY because of His Good Pleasure to show mercy.


The PURPOSE of election is only on God that calleth:


Rom 9:11
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.


It is NOT of man that willeth or runneth.. but of GOD alone


Rom 9:15-16
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.


It is a GIFT of God (not of man's works) so none can boast


Eph 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:
it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.


NO MAN can come to Christ (unless God "draws" them)


Joh 6:44
NO MAN can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


In fact, when Jesus' disciples realized He was teaching salvation
by ELECTION many of His disciples immediately abandoned Him.
[John 6:65-66]


Now... why in the world would anyone abandon the Son of God?
Of course the answer is obvious. They (like most men today)
did not want a salvation plan where God is Sovereign and saves
who HE ELECTS (with no regard to their actions). Instead, they
wanted a salvation plan where MAN is Sovereign and chooses
when/where/how he will save himself.


Any gospel that says MAN can save himself by saying a sinner's
prayer, or making an altar call, or receiving water baptism, or
repenting, or "accepting" Jesus or "believing in Jesus" is only
a "works gospel". And God has made it very clear that any
(real) repentance is the RESULT (not the cause) of regeneration.


Just imagine if you can save yourself by "accepting" Jesus or
by "believing" in Jesus... then all those suffering eternal torment
would be so STUPID they did not do the same "work" as you.
You could legitimately BOAST about what a good choice you
made... but the Bible says salvation is by God's election alone
so that NO MAN CAN BOAST.


Either the Scripture is wrong about election or YOU ARE WRONG.
I am sure the Scripture is not wrong.

.