Replacing the 12th Apostle

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This thread has undergone a clean up. As a reminder, the MJ Statement Of Purpose (new) includes this:


7. We believe that the books of B'resheet (Genesis) to the book of Revelation to be the inspired word of Elohim. Any teaching that attempts to invalidate these books of the Bible as being the authoritative inspired word of God will not be acceptable here on the forum.

That includes the letters by Paul.

Reopening - please stick to the rules
 
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mishkan

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See Deuteronomy 33:2 in conjunction with Psalm 68:17.

Some Rabbis of old saw in those readings a distinct understanding that angels were there at Mount Sinai.

Read also Galatians 3:19-20 and Hebrews 2:2

Absolutely. Another great example of the need for study the extra-biblical materials, so we understand the theological landscape of what we read in the Bible. Over my lifetime, I have gone from a strict "sola scriptura" to realizing that the Bible contains only the tip of an iceberg.

I think it is pretty arrogant to go around judging people who lived in the events, and whose statements have been approved since earliest generations of believers. They certainly wouldn't have said stupid things that were easily identified as error or heresy. It is we who need to be taught be them, not the other way around.

It is one thing to evaluate varying techniques of interpretation, and identify just how we wish to take the words of Stephen (in this case). It is something else entirely to accuse him of blatant error (or in Paul's case, to accuse him of conscious deceit).
 
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pat34lee

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Absolutely. Another great example of the need for study the extra-biblical materials, so we understand the theological landscape of what we read in the Bible. Over my lifetime, I have gone from a strict "sola scriptura" to realizing that the Bible contains only the tip of an iceberg.

I think it is pretty arrogant to go around judging people who lived in the events, and whose statements have been approved since earliest generations of believers. They certainly wouldn't have said stupid things that were easily identified as error or heresy. It is we who need to be taught be them, not the other way around.

It is one thing to evaluate varying techniques of interpretation, and identify just how we wish to take the words of Stephen (in this case). It is something else entirely to accuse him of blatant error (or in Paul's case, to accuse him of conscious deceit).

I agree with you to a point. There is much to be learned in the histories, archeology and even fables of the past. But anything that does not align with scripture when taken in context, including science and archeology, must be wrong. No other books or commentaries are inspired, and all have errors to different degrees.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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See Deuteronomy 33:2 in conjunction with Psalm 68:17.

Some Rabbis of old saw in those readings a distinct understanding that angels were there at Mount Sinai.

Read also Galatians 3:19-20 and Hebrews 2:2
Indeed
 
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mishkan

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I agree with you to a point. There is much to be learned in the histories, archeology and even fables of the past.

But anything that does not align with scripture when taken in context, including science and archeology, must be wrong. No other books or commentaries are inspired, and all have errors to different degrees.

The problem I see comes from this idea of "does not align with Scripture". Unless one is conversant with the contemporary material available, one has no idea whether s/he is correctly interpreting the Bible, right from the get-go. We can only pour our own life experiences and interpretations into the ancient text, and assume that we have created a correct interpretive framework based on our own assumptions. This is the very definition of eisegesis.

Once we've done this, we are almost guaranteed to run afoul of other writings of the same period, based on our assumption of what things should say. Some even take this to the point of turning the Biblical authors on themselves, rejecting the Pauline letters, or Hebrews, or the letters of Kefa... all because they fail to support the supposed "correct interpretation" that has been assigned to other portions of the canon.

After reading both rabbinics and the Biblical text for a number of years, I see increasing parallels in terminology and theology.

But I do note that you mention "taken in context, including science and archeology".

I'm not sure if that includes religious writings, or whether they were deliberately excluded from your list. They have to be taken into account, if one wishes to follow the religious discussions of the day. If we aren't aware of the hot topics, and the various positions held in the debates, we are back to what I described above--our interpretation is only as good as our own reasoning. I view this as a form of arrogance, since there were people living back then who were a lot smarter than we are. Even when they were ultimately proven wrong, we can only benefit from taking their ponderings into consideration.
 
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See Deuteronomy 33:2 in conjunction with Psalm 68:17.

Some Rabbis of old saw in those readings a distinct understanding that angels were there at Mount Sinai.

Read also Galatians 3:19-20 and Hebrews 2:2

Oh, I agree. But, the person who I quoted obviously does not, hence my little emoticon closing its ears, 'cause I don't want to hear people who don't believe the entire NT is inspired (the poster I quoted believe Stephen was mistaken when he wrote what he did).
 
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Avodat

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I agree. We need, also, to remember that we have only a small fraction of what went on in those days; there is far more that happened of which we have no knowledge, so we therefore have to ask ourselves why the writers chose only the bits they did to share with us - what was so important about those events, issues, problems or joys that they just felt compelled to write down for us? We can glibly say that G_d inspired them to write to it - but why? Why those bits over all the other bits of life and society in first century life as believers in Yeshua?

When we have learned to cope with that we have to be aware of our own baggage - known or not known - and seek a system of checks and balances to ensure we are not reading into The Book what we would like to see it say, or throwing out what it does say, quite plainly. Reading The Book for all it's worth is NOT for the faint-hearted!
 
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Avodat

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Oh, I agree. But, the person who I quoted obviously does not, hence my little emoticon closing its ears, 'cause I don't want to hear people who don't believe the entire NT is inspired (the poster I quoted believe Stephen was mistaken when he wrote what he did).

I provided the scriptural references as you hadn't :). No problem. We could debate your statement above but this thread is not about that and de-rails are not always helpful.
 
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mishkan

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I agree. We need, also, to remember that we have only a small fraction of what went on in those days; there is far more that happened of which we have no knowledge, so we therefore have to ask ourselves why the writers chose only the bits they did to share with us - what was so important about those events, issues, problems or joys that they just felt compelled to write down for us. We can glibly say that G_d inspired them to write to it - but why? Why those bits over all the other bits of life and society in first century life as believers in Yeshua?

When we have learned to cope with that we have to be aware of our own baggage - known or not known - and seek a system of checks and balances to ensure we are not reading into The Book what we would like to see it say, or throwing out what it does say, quite plainly. Reading The Book for all it's worth is NOT for the faint-hearted!

Absolutely!

---------------------------------------------------------
whisper:
It might be nice if you hit the "Quote" button instead of using the "Quick Reply", so we can all see at least a sliver of the material to which you are responding.

Just a small suggestion.
---------------------------------------------------------
 
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pat34lee

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The problem I see comes from this idea of "does not align with Scripture". Unless one is conversant with the contemporary material available, one has no idea whether s/he is correctly interpreting the Bible, right from the get-go. We can only pour our own life experiences and interpretations into the ancient text, and assume that we have created a correct interpretive framework based on our own assumptions. This is the very definition of eisegesis.

Correct. Here is one example, using texts current with the NT help to determine the meaning of Paul's phrase "works of the law".
The Dead Sea Scrolls and the "Works of the Law - Rocking The Foundations

After reading both rabbinics and the Biblical text for a number of years, I see increasing parallels in terminology and theology.

I would be surprised if that were not the case, as they were reading basically the same scriptures we have today. They were the same people with the same language and culture as those who wrote the NT. As it is today, many of their problems were not biblical, but traditional and political.

But I do note that you mention "taken in context, including science and archeology".

I'm not sure if that includes religious writings, or whether they were deliberately excluded from your list. They have to be taken into account, if one wishes to follow the religious discussions of the day. If we aren't aware of the hot topics, and the various positions held in the debates, we are back to what I described above--our interpretation is only as good as our own reasoning. I view this as a form of arrogance, since there were people living back then who were a lot smarter than we are. Even when they were ultimately proven wrong, we can only benefit from taking their ponderings into consideration.

I meant for the talmud and other writings to be included under "other books or commentaries". I specified archeology because many of them deny the reality of many OT people, places or events until they find confirmation in new finds.

I do not doubt that many, perhaps most, of the rabbis of Yeshua's time studied the scriptures more than I have, and had a better understanding of them. The problem is that they also had personal or political agendas. They knew how to twist the scriptures as shown in their attempts to trick Yeshua with their questions and using the woman caught in adultery.

They knew that messiah was due before the temple fell. When it fell, those who rejected Yeshua determined that the messiah had failed to come (as if YHWH ever failed to keep his word). The talmud was written by these rabbis beginning with Akiva for two reasons;
[1] to make this contention of messiah not coming at that time part of the religion (This is why you cannot be a rabbinic Jew and believe in Yeshua. It is also why following the talmud is dangerous to messianics.), and
[2] to consolidate the power of the rabbis over the people by declaring them keepers and sole arbiters of the Torah.​
 
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yedida

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It was only a few years, even after I joined CF, that I fought against the Talmud. I kept being told that a beginning of understanding of Torah was linked intrinsically with Oral Torah (Talmud) and I fought that idea tooth and nail. NOW, I 'see' what those people were talking about. It doesn't mean one has to accept and follow to the letter everything that is written in those works (Talmud, Mishna, Gemara, etc.), but without them, far too much is left to faulty Christian commentators. Those works bring the life and times of Yeshua and his followers to life, complete with vivid colors and patchwork.
 
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pat34lee

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It was only a few years, even after I joined CF, that I fought against the Talmud. I kept being told that a beginning of understanding of Torah was linked intrinsically with Oral Torah (Talmud) and I fought that idea tooth and nail. NOW, I 'see' what those people were talking about. It doesn't mean one has to accept and follow to the letter everything that is written in those works (Talmud, Mishna, Gemara, etc.), but without them, far too much is left to faulty Christian commentators. Those works bring the life and times of Yeshua and his followers to life, complete with vivid colors and patchwork.

The problem is that those who wrote the talmud were vehemently opposed to the messianic faith, and as such, it can not be trusted by messianics. It also contains tradition borrowed from Babylon and fences around the Torah that we are forbidden to create. I'm sure there are some good things in the koran and the i ching too, but I'm not going to wade through the dross to find it.
 
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visionary

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The problem is that those who wrote the talmud were vehemently opposed to the messianic faith, and as such, it can not be trusted by messianics. It also contains tradition borrowed from Babylon and fences around the Torah that we are forbidden to create. I'm sure there are some good things in the koran and the i ching too, but I'm not going to wade through the dross to find it.
As it is with any material, there is reasons and information with it. If you have a problem with biology book because it was written with evolutionary comments, will it stop you from continuing with that education class on your way to getting your degree? How often in life are we thrown dross? How often do we wade through it all just to get to the little gem that is beneficial. Just because it is not scripture, but closely related doesn't make it forbidden. It is like a protestant studying early church father material. It is not the material that is dangerous it is the person reading it. Not all that read the material are influenced, so I say those weak in the faith should not read it until they have a strong anchor in the truth and are not stumbling over or falling for the pit falls.

Most people who read other works by different faith, do so to gain the knowledge to relate to the other. It isn't to change, or be converted to that faith. I am not saying it won't happen to some degree, if it speaks to the heart of the reader on a material that has not been addressed.

As it has been said, in the case of the Talmud, it gives many insights into terminologies, theologies, ideologies, and traditions that are found active and alive in the first century when the disciples and Yeshua walked the earth. It explains the controversies, the ideologies, the hopes and dreams of the people. It explains why many leaders missed the boat when it came to Yeshua. I think we have a lot to learn from their mistake so that we do not make the same one, and assume we have all the truth in its true colors.
 
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Avodat

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The points made in all the posts above are summed up in Paul's instruction to test everything. You have to learn how to spit out the bones and eat the meat - this applies to all historical material, whether secular or religious. In the case of religious material the final arbitor is The Book, which is why it is dangerous to throw out any part of The Book, because once you go down that road you have no standard by which to measure anything else, and you replace the real truth with your own baggage, influenced, in turn, by your personal views and thoughts. Essentially, you are back at the beginning of the circle except that instead of having 1st Century writers of Scripture and related materials, it is all heavily biased by good old you as you proclaim these people were too biased for their own good! Remember what I said earlier: no human being can be objective about anything, including religious views and history!

Now you can see where the present day post-modern society came from with their battle cry that 'there is no truth', well, except their claimed truth: that truth doesn't exist; their own argument defeating their attempts at logic. :doh:
 
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Gxg (G²)

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As it is with any material, there is reasons and information with it. If you have a problem with biology book because it was written with evolutionary comments, will it stop you from continuing with that education class on your way to getting your degree? How often in life are we thrown dross? How often do we wade through it all just to get to the little gem that is beneficial. Just because it is not scripture, but closely related doesn't make it forbidden. It is like a protestant studying early church father material. It is not the material that is dangerous it is the person reading it. Not all that read the material are influenced, so I say those weak in the faith should not read it until they have a strong anchor in the truth and are not stumbling over or falling for the pit falls.

Most people who read other works by different faith, do so to gain the knowledge to relate to the other. It isn't to change, or be converted to that faith. I am not saying it won't happen to some degree, if it speaks to the heart of the reader on a material that has not been addressed.

As it has been said, in the case of the Talmud, it gives many insights into terminologies, theologies, ideologies, and traditions that are found active and alive in the first century when the disciples and Yeshua walked the earth. It explains the controversies, the ideologies, the hopes and dreams of the people. It explains why many leaders missed the boat when it came to Yeshua. I think we have a lot to learn from their mistake so that we do not make the same one, and assume we have all the truth in its true colors.
:thumbsup:
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Just that MJs accept Paul and always have.
.
It'd be interesting to see the issue of what MJism feels on the issue of not only the apostles/identifying who they were..but the concept of apostolic succession and addressing whether or not the apostles chose others to be apostles in place of them after they died/passed away....as that is, in many ways, the root cause/key behind many of the differing streams of thought (be it Catholicism or Orthodoxy or the Protestant movement and other movements from the Protestant world such as the Anabaptists or Organic/Simple Church movement) that have arisen....each with their own view on what leadership meant for the apostles and what they expected from other leaders they raised up.

That often seems to be something that makes a world of difference, considering that the leadership that arose after Paul and the others had significant influence in saying what the apostles meant after they had passed and influencing how to interpret them----even if interpretations of their actions were not what was accepted by the apostles, just as it the case that Paul nor the other apostles wouldn't have agreed with the post-first century perspective that he wasn't truly an apostle to be respected/listened to.
 
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