Replacement Theology Found in Scripture?

[LittleLambofJesus]

The real issue is that the comments are Biblical, no matter what label you want to put on them.

People can make the Bible say anything they want it to say to further a doctrine.
FWIW, I am an avowed Preterist

 

[LinkH]

When they rejected the Messiah they ceased to be God's special people, set apart for his purpose. They removed themselves. Everything God promised to Israel is applied to Jesus Christ, the true seed of Israel and heir of the Promise. And since the Church is in Christ, it all applies to us.

Let's not confuse the promise to be heir of the world with God's covenant with Israel.

Consider Deuteronomy 18
17 The Lord said to me: “What they say is good. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him. 19 I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name.
(NIV)

How will God approach the Israelite who does not believe the Prophet, like unto Moses, the prophet named Yeshua. Will He say to them, you are no longer Israel, and therefore this passage does not apply to you. Does God only apply this passage to the church now, since the church is Israel?

No, God made a covenant with Israel, and if a Jew does not believe in Yeshua, God will hold Him to account.

Why would Paul have told the Galatians that if they were to be circumcised, they would take upon themselves the obligation to obey the whole law if the law had been abrogated and the covenant were not still in effect? Why would Romans still speak of Jews being judged by the law?

Fortunately for the nation of Israel, the Bible contains promises of God restoring the nation after they had sinned. According to Romans 11, we are in a time now where the Gentiles are being brought it. It was God's plan to include Gentiles, not just Israelis, in the body of Messiah. Through Israel's disobedience, Gentiles are coming in.

God is using us (I am of Gentile descent as far as I know) to provoke Israel to jealousy. Therefore, He still cares for Israel. One day, the blindness will be lifted from Israel, and God will provide salvation for that nation.

There is salvation in no other name but the name of Jesus (Iesous, Yeshua). No flesh shall be saved by the works of the law.

How do you explain what you are arguing in light of Romans 11.

 

[LinkH]

People can make the Bible say anything they want it to say to further a doctrine.
FWIW, I am an avowed Preterist

Why don't you go line by line and try to debunk the post of mine you commented on?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Why don't you go line by line and try to debunk the post of mine you commented on?

Don't feel like battling you on the Dispensationalism doctrine right now.
However, there is a sub-board that debates that zionist doctrine here:

http://www.christianforums.com/f424/
Dispensationalism

http://www.christianforums.com/t7459656-101/#post54524331
National Israel is cursed forever !

 

[Ronald]

Romans 11
17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Why did you stop there?

"I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this isf my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”g
28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

Israel was temporarily blinded (Rom.11:7) for our sake.
They were provoked to jealously so salvation came to the Gentiles.(vs.11)

The veil will be lifted from their eyes soon --when the fullness of the gentiles is complete -- we are close.
No replacement, salvation for all, just at different times. The 144,000 in Revelation is proof that God has not forgotten Israel. His plan for history is right on schedule: The Muslim movement in various countries and Iran getting nuclear ready are no less than prophetic visions of pre-Armegeddon.

 

[Frogster]

According to scripture, God has made a covenant with the nation of Israel.

If you have an unbelieving Jew and an unbelieving Irishman. The unbelieving Jew is a part of a nation for which God has made a covenant. What covenant has God made with the Irish? What covenant does any other nation have apart from Christ? None.

Part of God's commandments to Israel is that they hear His Prophet. That is an issue. But there are also prophecies about restoring Israel from its disobedience.

When Israel was disobedient before the Messiah came and died on the cross and rose again, God still kept His end of the covenant with Israel. After Christ dies, He still honors it. Through Israel's disobedience, Gentiles are being allowed in as fellow-heirs. The day will come when the partial blindness will be removed from Israel and the nation shall be saved.

There is a special plan for Israel, Abraham's seed according to the flesh.

Show me the split, between gentiles and jews, using Paul and Abraham?

I will save u work, there is none.

Rom 9:8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

 

[Frogster]

Why don't you go line by line and try to debunk the post of mine you commented on?

i posted a few, u did not debunk.

 

[Frogster]

Let's not confuse the promise to be heir of the world with God's covenant with Israel.

Consider Deuteronomy 18
17 The Lord said to me: “What they say is good. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him. 19 I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name.
(NIV)

How will God approach the Israelite who does not believe the Prophet, like unto Moses, the prophet named Yeshua. Will He say to them, you are no longer Israel, and therefore this passage does not apply to you. Does God only apply this passage to the church now, since the church is Israel?

No, God made a covenant with Israel, and if a Jew does not believe in Yeshua, God will hold Him to account.

Why would Paul have told the Galatians that if they were to be circumcised, they would take upon themselves the obligation to obey the whole law if the law had been abrogated and the covenant were not still in effect? Why would Romans still speak of Jews being judged by the law?

Fortunately for the nation of Israel, the Bible contains promises of God restoring the nation after they had sinned. According to Romans 11, we are in a time now where the Gentiles are being brought it. It was God's plan to include Gentiles, not just Israelis, in the body of Messiah. Through Israel's disobedience, Gentiles are coming in.

God is using us (I am of Gentile descent as far as I know) to provoke Israel to jealousy. Therefore, He still cares for Israel. One day, the blindness will be lifted from Israel, and God will provide salvation for that nation.

There is salvation in no other name but the name of Jesus (Iesous, Yeshua). No flesh shall be saved by the works of the law.

How do you explain what you are arguing in light of Romans 11.

they are cursed under their law, they are not in the gospel, they are not seed of Abraham.


Are they in the gospel?

8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify[c] the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”


They can only be seed In Christ, and that means no more jew or greek, heirs only, only by promise.


gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

 

[Frogster]

Why don't you go line by line and try to debunk the post of mine you commented on?

Why do Jews have to come in pre-judaism to be heirs?

Rom 4:12 and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

Is Abe the father of all, or those on a certain land mass?




4:16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

 

[Jipsah]

'Replacement' thinking is problematic because it treats the ethnic people of Israel as if God did not have a special plan for their nation, when Paul says, "All Israel shall be saved" in a context where he is dealing with the natural branches.

There is no separate path for the Jews. Salvation is of Christ, punto.

 

[Jipsah]

According to scripture, God has made a covenant with the nation of Israel.

Fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

If you have an unbelieving Jew and an unbelieving Irishman. The unbelieving Jew is a part of a nation for which God has made a covenant. What covenant has God made with the Irish? What covenant does any other nation have apart from Christ? None.

All very well, but the central fact of both the unbelieving Jew and the unbelieving Irishman is their unbelief. Neither has any advantage over the other.

The day will come when the partial blindness will be removed from Israel and the nation shall be saved.

The day their unbelief is no more.

There is a special plan for Israel

There is none. Salvation is through Christ alone.

 

[Gnarwhal]

Fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

All very well, but the central fact of both the unbelieving Jew and the unbelieving Irishman is their unbelief. Neither has any advantage over the other.

The day their unbelief is no more.
There is none. Salvation is through Christ alone.

All very well said bro.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

 

[LinkH]

Fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

All very well, but the central fact of both the unbelieving Jew and the unbelieving Irishman is their unbelief. Neither has any advantage over the other.

That contradicts what Paul wrote in Romans 3. What advantage hath the Jew? Much every way.

The Jew is beloved for the sake of the patriarchs. We have no such guarantee for the unbelieving Irish. (No offense to the Irish intended. I've got Irish blood in my veins, btw.)

There is no indication in scripture that anything God is doing with the church is specifically intended to provoke the Irish to jealousy.

The day their unbelief is no more.
There is none. Salvation is through Christ alone.

We agree on this, but there is no scripture that promises a day of national salvation for the Irish. There is no scripture that speaks of the Irish having a blindness that will be lifted 'when the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.'

 

[Tangible]

"All Israel shall be saved" doesn't mean the blood descendants of Jacob. It means children of the promise, that is, the Church. (Rom 9, Gal 4)

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

There is no separate path for the Jews. Salvation is of Christ, punto.

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

Jeremiah 23:6 In his days shall Judah be saved and Israel abide securely,--
And this is His name whereby He shall be called 'Yahweh, our Righteousness'.

Acts 4:12 "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

.

 

[Frogster]

There is no separate path for the Jews. Salvation is of Christ, punto.

Exactly, no partiality.

Rom 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”


The have to believe the Gospel like everyone else.


10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?”



Grace.


Rom 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

 

[Frogster]

That contradicts what Paul wrote in Romans 3. What advantage hath the Jew? Much every way.

The Jew is beloved for the sake of the patriarchs. We have no such guarantee for the unbelieving Irish. (No offense to the Irish intended. I've got Irish blood in my veins, btw.)

There is no indication in scripture that anything God is doing with the church is specifically intended to provoke the Irish to jealousy.



We agree on this, but there is no scripture that promises a day of national salvation for the Irish. There is no scripture that speaks of the Irish having a blindness that will be lifted 'when the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.'

Yeah, in 3, thay had the scriptures in 3:2, but again, the scriptures did not fail, they did, so the advantage is over. Try to see it as a historical narrative.

Again, to be in Abraham, as the word says, it's not about judaism, law, circumcision, race, etc. See in this verse, the oracles did not fail, the oracles of 3:2. It's all about the gospel now.


9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,

 

[Frogster]

That contradicts what Paul wrote in Romans 3. What advantage hath the Jew? Much every way.

The Jew is beloved for the sake of the patriarchs. We have no such guarantee for the unbelieving Irish. (No offense to the Irish intended. I've got Irish blood in my veins, btw.)

There is no indication in scripture that anything God is doing with the church is specifically intended to provoke the Irish to jealousy.



We agree on this, but there is no scripture that promises a day of national salvation for the Irish. There is no scripture that speaks of the Irish having a blindness that will be lifted 'when the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.'

Again, what was written, and applied to Gentiles, certainly must apply to Jews, who to be heirs, can't rely on the old ways, the oracles they had show the gospel, Rom 16:25-26, in the writings, Romans 1:2, the gospel.


Check out this verse after Paul used Abraham to level circumcision, which meant law, and being Jewish, the oracles...the oracles in the advantage they had in 3:2. So what was written is for both parties, the same gospel.




Rom 4:23 But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, 24 but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord,

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

All very well, but the central fact of both the unbelieving Jew and the unbelieving Irishman is their unbelief. Neither has any advantage over the other.

The day their unbelief is no more.
There is none. Salvation is through Christ alone.

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

Jeremiah 23:6 In his days shall Judah be saved and Israel abide securely,--
And this is His name whereby He shall be called 'Yahweh, our Righteousness'.

Acts 4:12 "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

 

[from scratch]

Dispensationalism tends to lead people to believe that the Law of God (The Ten Commandments) is only for the Jews, not the Gentiles.

But if one believes that Israel is realized in the Church, and that we are now Spiritual Israel, then that means we Gentiles have an obligation to the Law of God.

What a hot thread!

The SDA organization needs this replacement theology to support their teaching.

All tree grafts are made into root stock not mature trees. Yes it is expressed as tree grafting. Mature trees are not grafted. The tree that a Christian is graft into is Jesus and not Israel. Jesus is the Root Stock. Even a Jew must be graft into this Root Stock to posess salvation.

A similar passage can be foun in John 10 about their being one fold.