Replacement Theology "anti-semitic"?

[misomisogrammarMMG]

[moved]

 

[Cappadocious]

I admire whatever poetic form you are writing in.

Refer back to my previous posts in which I outline the causes of Jewish persecution. I never denied there was a Christian component. I do dispute the notion that Replacement Theology was the direct precursor to the Holocaust, as I think most others would.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

"Nonsense" (Cappadocious, post 32) is what you get when you don't know your histories. The Jewish persecution came from the whole world, except Poland and Lithuania. That's basically it.

Nihilism is probably worse than Anti-Semitism, but both are extremely bad. Denying what hitler did is more than just "nonsense" (Habakk), but we live in the Information Age where you can say whatever you want.

Your prose is 1 line, 1 line, 1 line, 1 line, and then a 3 line conclusion. There is no "real" (Cappadocious, post 34) form in what you are saying. RT obviously had something to do with it. But it's not the only thing to blame. There are thousands of different things that led up to the Holocaust.

The "tastiest" (Cappadocious, post 36) thing is the Bible.
Being a Bible Eater.

Gotta munch on the Word

Ezekiel 3:1
Moreover He said to me, "Son of adam! eat what you find;
eat this scroll! and go speak to the house of Israel."
2 So I opened my mouth, and He caused me to eat that scroll.

Rev 10:9
So I went to the Messenger and said to Him, "Give me the little book."
And he said to me, "Take and eat it! and it will make your stomach bitter,
but it will be as sweet as honey in your mouth."
10 Then I took the little scroll out of the Messenger's hand and ate it, and it was as sweet as honey in my mouth.
But when I had eaten it, my stomach became bitter.

.

 

[Habakk]

The Christian component was also driven by a theological component. Precursor means something that proceeds or precedes the event. No one here is advocating that it was the only cause. Ignorance and fear with the catalyst of theology were definitely some of the more powerful driving forces behind the persecution. Replacement theology was the excuse, the church taught that the Jews killed Jesus and Hitler exploited that. A Jewish lady R Price, survivor of a concentration camp, was told “we kill you because you killed our God Jesus Christ". This was a regular experience of Hitler’s Nazi concentration camps. Josef Tiso, a Catholic priest helped export Jews to the concentration camps said “it is a Christian act for the good of the people to get rid of the Jewish pests”. Raul Hilburg a world authority wrote much about the subject. Christian leaders called the Jews “a miserable, blind and senseless people. They cannot be God’s people because they don’t hear”. The list goes on and on and on and….

 

[Cappadocious]

I don't think you understand what replacement theology is talking about.

It isn't the notion that "the Jews killed Jesus".

 

[Habakk]

I don't think you understand what replacement theology is talking about.

It isn't the notion that "the Jews killed Jesus".

I do know that.

Replacement theology denies the promises of God to the Jewish people and the Land of Israel because physical Israel has been replaced by spiritual Israel (the Church). This is the precursor to its misuse and the Jewish people being labelled a cursed people.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I know that it doesn’t specifically say that.
Replacement theology denies the promises of God to the Jewish people and the Land of Israel because physical Israel has been replaced by spiritual Israel.
This is the precursor to its misuse and the Jewish people being labelled a cursed people.

Seems I read something about that somewhere:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7459656-101/
National Israel is cursed forever !

National Israel will never again have spiritual significance in this world, all those advantages are forever forfieted, but this was always part of Gods eternal plan and purpose for that people..

matt 21:
42 Jesus saith unto them, "Did ye never read in the scriptures, 'The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes'"?

43 Therefore say I unto ye, the kingdom of God shall be taken from ye, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

National Israel's rejection and curse is final..

.

 

[Zeek]

Believing that any sort of observation of Jewish feast or belief that is contrary to Christianity for religious reasons is an act of apostacy and heresy isn't Anti-semitic; it is Christian orthodoxy. I'm not going to be bullied by those who don't even know what Anti-semitism is to be fasely accused of it nor to give up the pure, orthodox Christian faith. Not happening.

I think you clearly demonstrate some of what is mostly wrong with Christians attitudes to the Jewish people...namely you just want to show them how wrong they are because they don't adopt your belief system or accept your sanitized white-mans Jesus that bears little resemblance to the biblical Messiah....I might understand you and make allowance for your attitudes and your self-justifications, but most Jews would not....so perhaps it throws light on why many Jews have rejected the Jesus we have presented to them in the past. (food for thought?)

So please, by all means, all Christian Zionists continue the crusade against me and others with false accusations of Anti-semitism. Persecute us! Jesus the Christ said that I am among the blessed in the Beatitudes by it, and by other sayings, well, we all know them.

I think you have a persecution complex (an observation not an ad hom)....Jehovah's witnesses quote from the Beatitudes each time a door is slammed in their face.

No Jew can be a Christian unless he or she abandons Judaism. In actual historic Jewish belief, that person is no longer a Jew. Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel would have a field day with posts like this!

Many Jews do not follow Judaism, and what Judaism says about them has little impact...I speak to Orthodox and Ultra-Orthodox Jews regularly...I even know Ultra-Orthodox Believers in Yeshua...many would have more of a field day with the way you express yourself IMO than the manner in which I might argue Scripture with them.

They are not God's People. They are outside the visible Church and are therefore outside God's grace visibly. Only Christians are God's People in the sense you describe. The Jews forsook Jesus and have been cast out

.

This is the whole point....the Jews have never ceased from being G-ds covenant people through His sovereign choice...in other words it does not lie in their hands, but is according to G-ds will and cannot be revoked.

Romans 11
28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

This is not historic, orthodox Christian teaching. No Jew, least he or she forsakes Judaism and being a Jew and becomes a Christian, is membered in the True Israel. They are outside.

No Jew has to forsake being a Jew when they believe in Yeshua...that is something fostered on them through pernicious teaching whether from the Christian camp or the Jewish camp.

G-d, L-rd, "Yeshua", is all Judaic, not Christian. Reverence is commendable, but Jewish reverence like this has no place among Christians. The Jews are more than welcome to use those terms and if they wish to be good orthodox Jews, I hope that they would! However, for a Christian to use them would violate essential aspects of key Christian theology. That is why I cannot stand it when Christians do such things.

I think you are trying too hard and wandering into the Twi-light Zone...you seem to have a propensity to shoulder offence even when none is intended...don't let me stop you though.

 

[Habakk]

Seems I read something about that somewhere:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7459656-101/
National Israel is cursed forever !

The problem is historically the church didn’t contain it’s theology but tried to exercise its own curse on the Jewish people.

The Balfour Declaration had distinct political overtones that caused its implication, even then it was deemed to be a national home not a state. Despite massive and prolonged persecution of the Jewish people, influenced by the church. The establishment of the Jewish people in an extremely hostile and volatile area, with little means to defend themselves. Israel seems to almost miraculously defy the odds against it.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The problem is historically the church didn’t contain it’s theology but tried to exercise its own curse on the Jewish people.

The Balfour Declaration had distinct political overtones that caused its implication, even then it was deemed to be a national home not a state. Despite massive and prolonged persecution of the Jewish people, influenced by the church. The establishment of the Jewish people in an extremely hostile and volatile area, with little means to defend themselves. Israel seems to almost miraculously defy the odds against it.

With a little help and support from one of it's strongest ally, the US

Roots of the U.S.-Israel Relationship

America's Support for Zionism

American support for the age-old aspirations of the Jewish people to return to their homeland dates from the Colonial period when John Adams wrote: "I really wish the Jews again in Judea an independent nation for, as I believe, the most enlightened men of it have participated in the amelioration of the philosophy of the age." John Quincy Adams wrote to Major Mordecai Manuel Noah that he believed in the "rebuilding of Judea as an independent nation."
Not long after the Emancipation Proclamation, President Abraham Lincoln met a Canadian Christian Zionist, Henry Wentworth Monk, who expressed hope that Jews who were suffering oppression in Russia and Turkey be emancipated "by restoring them to their national home in Palestine." Lincoln said this was "a noble dream and one shared by many Americans." The President said his chiropodist was a Jew who "has so many times ‘put me upon my feet’ that I would have no objection to giving his countrymen ‘a leg up.’"
​

Endorsing The Balfour Declaration

In 1917, Lord Balfour sent a letter to Lord Rothschild, president of the British Zionist Federation, stating that the British Government would facilitate the establishment of a national home for the Jewish people in Palestine. President Wilson expressed his support for the Balfour Declaration when he stated on March 3, 1919:

The allied nations with the fullest concurrence of our government and people are agreed that in Palestine shall be laid the foundations of a Jewish Commonwealth.
​

After Wilson left office, his successors expressed similar support for the Zionist enterprise. "It is impossible for one who has studied at all the services of the Hebrew people to avoid the faith that they will one day be restored to their historic national home and there enter on a new and yet greater phase of their contribution to the advance of humanity," said President Warren Harding.
Calvin Coolidge expressed his "sympathy with the deep and intense longing which finds such fine expression in the Jewish National Homeland in Palestine."
​

 

[Cappadocious]

I do know that.

Replacement theology denies the promises of God to the Jewish people and the Land of Israel because physical Israel has been replaced by spiritual Israel (the Church). This is the precursor to its misuse and the Jewish people being labelled a cursed people.

Except it doesn't.

The theology pejoratively labelled "replacement theology" says that the Israel of God now exists in the Messiah, as the Body of Christ. There has been no replacement, there is only continuation. That body is made up of both Jews and Gentiles, so there is nothing anti-Jewish about it.

 

[Knee V]

No.

There is not an anti-Semetic boogie man behind every bush.

Also, what Cappadocious said.

 

[Habakk]

Except it doesn't.

The theology pejoratively labelled "replacement theology" says that the Israel of God now exists in the Messiah, as the Body of Christ. There has been no replacement, there is only continuation. That body is made up of both Jews and Gentiles, so there is nothing anti-Jewish about it.

That’s fine for the armchair theologians but in the real world it has proven to not work like that. Misuse of theology was rampant and without any Christian compassion resulting in real tangible horrors, suffering and inhuman atrocities.

1826 Pope Leo decreed that Jews were to be confined to ghettoes and their property confiscated.

1826 Pope Pius X said “Jews have not recognised our Lord; therefore we cannot recognise the Jewish people”.

In the 19th century the Roman Catholic Church made a distinction between good and bad anti Semitism. Catholic bishops wrote much condemning the Jews.

1921 A Vatican spokesman said the Catholic Church did not wish to assist the Jewish race which is permeated with a rebellious spirit.

1925 At a conference in Innsbruck Austria, Roman Catholic Bishop Sigismund Waitz said Jews were an alien people.

1939 Josef Tiso, a Catholic priest began exporting Jews to Nazi concentration camps. He said, “It is Christian action to expel the Jews, because it is for the good of the people getting rid of the pests”.

A very very small example of sixteen centuries of Jewish persecution by orthodox Christians. Fuelled by bad or misused theology. Denying the Jewish people their freedom because they collectively denied the Lord and killed the savoir. A precursor of bad or misused theology that cumulated in an attempted to wipe out the entire Jewish nation in the final solution.

 

[Zeek]

The theology pejoratively labelled "replacement theology" says that the Israel of God now exists in the Messiah, as the Body of Christ. There has been no replacement, there is only continuation. That body is made up of both Jews and Gentiles, so there is nothing anti-Jewish about it.

Except that the very expression 'Israel of G-d' has been misrepresented as meaning all those who believe in Jesus as their Saviour, both Jew and Gentile...as quoted from Gal 6:16..and with a bit of theological gymnastics this has come to mean the 'Church' and thus the Church is the new 'Israel'....having replaced the old redundant Israel and the promises to the Jewish people..these are now all spiritualized and given over to the 'true Israel'....and 'hey presto' the replacement is complete.

Therefore it seems apt to label this metamorphosis as 'Replacement Theology'....especially when the vast majority of Believers who subscribe to such a teaching dismiss current Israel as an irrelevance...despite the evidence unfolding before their very eyes and despite many prophetic references...to me it seems as if they cling to their traditional doctrines because it is more important to honour these than consider having got things a bit muddled.....(where are the Aquila and Priscilla's when you need them ?)

Like everything the term 'Replacement Theology' is a blanket expression and will not cover every aspect of individual belief, but as a general term it seems to sum things up.

 

[New_Wineskin]

That’s fine for the armchair theologians but in the real world it has proven to not work like that. Misuse of theology was rampant and without any Christian compassion resulting in real tangible horrors, suffering and inhuman atrocities.

1826 Pope Leo decreed that Jews were to be confined to ghettoes and their property confiscated.

1826 Pope Pius X said “Jews have not recognised our Lord; therefore we cannot recognise the Jewish people”.

In the 19th century the Roman Catholic Church made a distinction between good and bad anti Semitism. Catholic bishops wrote much condemning the Jews.

1921 A Vatican spokesman said the Catholic Church did not wish to assist the Jewish race which is permeated with a rebellious spirit.

1925 At a conference in Innsbruck Austria, Roman Catholic Bishop Sigismund Waitz said Jews were an alien people.

1939 Josef Tiso, a Catholic priest began exporting Jews to Nazi concentration camps. He said, “It is Christian action to expel the Jews, because it is for the good of the people getting rid of the pests”.

A very very small example of sixteen centuries of Jewish persecution by orthodox Christians. Fuelled by bad or misused theology. Denying the Jewish people their freedom because they collectively denied the Lord and killed the savoir. A precursor of bad or misused theology that cumulated in an attempted to wipe out the entire Jewish nation in the final solution.

Add to the list that , in a 95% Catholic town in the USA , the Jews were always spoken of with venom in their words . In the religion classes thrust upon me , the Jews were the main reason for the Lord's death - very little mentioned about *our* sins being the main reason and full innocence on Rome and its soldiers for killing a man their government declared to be not guilty .

 

[Lovely Lane]

Israel has been replaced by the Christian Church, sounds what the new testament is all about. I agree with that.





https://theuglytruth.wordpress.com/2012/02/22/jews-who-hate-christians/

 

[Lovely Lane]

That’s fine for the armchair theologians but in the real world it has proven to not work like that. Misuse of theology was rampant and without any Christian compassion resulting in real tangible horrors, suffering and inhuman atrocities.

1826 Pope Leo decreed that Jews were to be confined to ghettoes and their property confiscated.

1826 Pope Pius X said “Jews have not recognised our Lord; therefore we cannot recognise the Jewish people”.

In the 19th century the Roman Catholic Church made a distinction between good and bad anti Semitism. Catholic bishops wrote much condemning the Jews.

1921 A Vatican spokesman said the Catholic Church did not wish to assist the Jewish race which is permeated with a rebellious spirit.

1925 At a conference in Innsbruck Austria, Roman Catholic Bishop Sigismund Waitz said Jews were an alien people.

1939 Josef Tiso, a Catholic priest began exporting Jews to Nazi concentration camps. He said, “It is Christian action to expel the Jews, because it is for the good of the people getting rid of the pests”.

A very very small example of sixteen centuries of Jewish persecution by orthodox Christians. Fuelled by bad or misused theology. Denying the Jewish people their freedom because they collectively denied the Lord and killed the savoir. A precursor of bad or misused theology that cumulated in an attempted to wipe out the entire Jewish nation in the final solution.

So what? This has nothing to do with the thread.

 

[Lovely Lane]

Add to the list that , in a 95% Catholic town in the USA , the Jews were always spoken of with venom in their words . In the religion classes thrust upon me , the Jews were the main reason for the Lord's death - very little mentioned about *our* sins being the main reason and full innocence on Rome and its soldiers for killing a man their government declared to be not guilty .

So, what does that got to do with this thread?

You guy's are great in pointing out the Christian error, show what you got in ways of the faults of the Jew.

 

[motherprayer]

I saw this coming when I closed my thread lol

 

[Habakk]

You guy's are great in pointing out the Christian error, show what you got in ways of the faults of the Jew.

Please note the "you guys” here did not start this thread and I doubt if any of us would after recent debate on the GT forum. However as it has been started, it is being addressed by others who are deeply concerned about the issues of misused theology. Some have even witnessed things first hand.