Replacement Theology "anti-semitic"?

[Habakk]

For in him every one of God's promises is a 'Yes.' For this reason it is through him that we say the 'Amen', to the glory of God. (2 Corinthians 1:20 NRSV)

There are no promises unfulfilled since Christ has come. He is God's AMEN to all the promises of all the covenants. The land, eternal life, resurrection from the dead, fidelity in life, all these are fulfilled in Christ. A new temple, a sacrifice that really washes sins away, an eternal home free from invasion and war are all fulfilled in Christ. I do not think there is room for any unfulfilled promises.
​

Everything is fulfilled in him concerning our salvation and when he returns all will be fulfilled concerning his kingdom rule on earth. So in him all things are fulfilled.

He came first as the meek mild saviour, to fulfil the law and the prophets, to die and be raised to purchase our salvation.

He is coming again in power to bring God’s rule to the earth. The Jewish People and the land of Israel are in preparation for that day according to bible prophecy. In that day the house of Israel will be saved when they see whom they pierced they will weep.

 

[PaladinValer]

It's good to be positive in ones affirmation of anything, but in this instance I believe you are positively wrong.

And I know for a fact that I am positively right.

RT is a term that generally hits the nail on the head and challenges some deeply held mis-understandings and poor teachings which have taken root over many centuries.

It is a misnomer weasel word.

a bit like the Reformation getting to grips with a few 'sacred cows' that had been reverred for 1,000 years. Believing something for 1,000 years does not give it legitimacy.

It does when it has Apostolic roots.

if it is wrong it merely demonstrates man's capacity to cling to on to things, probably out of misplaced loyalty in submitting to mans words above G-ds words, and a sprinkling of pride and fear.

I don't recognize any being named "G-d". I'm a Christian, not a Jew. Christian theology trumps all Judaism, which is a false, non-salvific religion. The Jews and their theology, including the unwillingness to use vowels out of a semi-Holy Name theology borrowed from Judaism, condemn according to historic, orthodox, ancient, authentic, classic Christian belief. You use a Christian icon, then please don't adhere to Jewish ideas.

And that's not Antisemitic; that's Christianity. You don't see me going around telling my government at the local, state, or national level to draw up laws to limit Jews' rights and privileges in my country, you don't see me setting fire to synagogues, you won't see a copy of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion in my house, you won't see any Neo-Nazi crap about me, etc.

Most of us have not concluded that RT makes people anti-Semitic, rather that it is a catalyst or a spring-board to anti-Semitism, adding a degree of legitimacy to direct bigotry.

Fallacy of Slippery Slope.

These Boards certainly confirm what many of us have experienced...all stemming from an unbiblical understanding of the nature of Israel, and G-ds heart towards His covenant people.

The only thing these boards prove is that practically everyone who condemns people who hold to Covenant Theology or Supersessionism as Anti-Semitic has absolutely no clue what Anti-semitism is. I'm living proof; I've been called an Anti-semite tens of times in my LONG tenure here and I've proven them wrong each and every time.

The Jews are not God's people. That's Christianity; I'm a Christian and I embrace it. Inconvenient truth, I know, but that's not a springboard to anything Anti-semitic. A Jew who accepts Christ is no longer a Jew according to Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform Judaism...and according to the very theocratic country of Israel itself...and according to historic, orthodox Christian theology. That Jew has apostated from Judaism and has become a Christian. Any middle ground has been condemned by both groups to be heretical to each respective religion, and rightly so according to the orthodoxy in both.

If anything is "Anti-semitic," it is the idea that you can be both Christian and Jewish at the same time.

I await the accusations of my Anti-semitism, which I'm almost certain will be issued soon.

 

[Rhamiel]

I have a question for Christian Zionests

those who think that the Jewish people have a claim to a piece of land in the Middle East

the Christian Church is made up of Gentiles and Jews, members of all nations and races have joined the Church

ok, so now that we have that out of the way
Why do you think that Jews who reject Christ have more of a claim to the land then the Jews who follow Christ?

 

[Rhamiel]

PaladinValer

I don't recognize any being named "G-d". I'm a Christian, not a Jew. Christian theology trumps all Judaism

I agree with you on your thoughts about Christian theology and on many other things
but the person you are quoting is, in his own way, trying to show the utmost respect for God, and even though using the spelling "G-d" is not our custom, we should respect the sentiment and try to learn from his deep love of our Lord

 

[Zeek]

And I know for a fact that I am positively right.



It is a misnomer weasel word.



It does when it has Apostolic roots.



I don't recognize any being named "G-d". I'm a Christian, not a Jew. Christian theology trumps all Judaism, which is a false, non-salvific religion. The Jews and their theology, including the unwillingness to use vowels out of a semi-Holy Name theology borrowed from Judaism, condemn according to historic, orthodox, ancient, authentic, classic Christian belief. You use a Christian icon, then please don't adhere to Jewish ideas.

And that's not Antisemitic; that's Christianity. You don't see me going around telling my government at the local, state, or national level to draw up laws to limit Jews' rights and privileges in my country, you don't see me setting fire to synagogues, you won't see a copy of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion in my house, you won't see any Neo-Nazi crap about me, etc.



Fallacy of Slippery Slope.



The only thing these boards prove is that practically everyone who condemns people who hold to Covenant Theology or Supersessionism as Anti-Semitic has absolutely no clue what Anti-semitism is. I'm living proof; I've been called an Anti-semite tens of times in my LONG tenure here and I've proven them wrong each and every time.

The Jews are not God's people. That's Christianity; I'm a Christian and I embrace it. Inconvenient truth, I know, but that's not a springboard to anything Anti-semitic. A Jew who accepts Christ is no longer a Jew according to Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform Judaism...and according to the very theocratic country of Israel itself...and according to historic, orthodox Christian theology. That Jew has apostated from Judaism and has become a Christian. Any middle ground has been condemned by both groups to be heretical to each respective religion, and rightly so according to the orthodoxy in both.

If anything is "Anti-semitic," it is the idea that you can be both Christian and Jewish at the same time.

I await the accusations of my Anti-semitism, which I'm almost certain will be issued soon.

Above all your post begs the question why would you be accussed of being anti-Semitic so many times.

Despite what modern Judaism may say or Christians claim...a Jew does not stop being a Jew because He believes in Messiah Yeshua, in the same way that a Gentile does not stop being a Gentile because he has believed in the L-rd Jesus...many Jews that believe in Yeshua prefer to be called Messianic, some don't mind being referred to as Jewish Christians etc...but it all amounts to the same thing in the end...the Church is comprised of Believing Jews and Believing Gentiles.

The Jews most definately are G-ds chosen people...doesn't mean they get a free ticket to Heaven, but it means they are the people group on this earth that He covenanted with, and they are meant to be representative of Him as a nation. 'Chosen' doesn't mean 'elite'...it is an act of G-ds sovereign will to display His glory through the descendents of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob....He chose them because He chose them.

Ogden Nash wrote:

How odd of G-d
to choose the Jews.

to which somebody added:

How odder still that He should die
For such a one as you and I.

Most people aren't troubled by the G-d or L-rd...it is because I have many Orthodox friends and out of deference to them I incorporate it in all my posts...not a biggy, and not something you need to get hung up on unless you choose to.

 

[Zeek]

PaladinValer

I agree with you on your thoughts about Christian theology and on many other things
but the person you are quoting is, in his own way, trying to show the utmost respect for God, and even though using the spelling "G-d" is not our custom, we should respect the sentiment and try to learn from his deep love of our Lord

...good attitude bro.

 

[Zeek]

I have a question for Christian Zionests

those who think that the Jewish people have a claim to a piece of land in the Middle East

the Christian Church is made up of Gentiles and Jews, members of all nations and races have joined the Church

ok, so now that we have that out of the way
Why do you think that Jews who reject Christ have more of a claim to the land then the Jews who follow Christ?

I don't think Jews who reject Christ have more of a claim to the land of Israel than Jews who believe Yeshua is their Messiah...I believe the promise of the land was made to them as a people group...and in a sense those Believing Jews in the Land (the Remnant) have the stronger claim if you like....but it isn't a case of differentiating between belief, or done on the basis or proviso of who accepts or rejects Messiah...it is in these days another sovereign design of G-d to bring His people back from the diaspora and once again establish them in the land of their Forefathers...

 

[PaladinValer]

Above all your post begs the question why would you be accussed of being anti-Semitic so many times.

Again, the actual definition of Anti-semitism is not adhered by those who constantly label it upon orthodox Christian theology and its adherents.

LEARN THE BLOODY DEFINITION BEFORE YOU ACCUSE PEOPLE!

Anti-Semitism is hatred towards Jews and Judaism to the point of persecution and dehumanization. I don't dehumanize Jews...like how most Zionist Christians dehumanize Muslims...I have repeatedly said, over and over, that adherents of Judaism should enjoy equal and same benefits as any other person under the laws of any country they live in. They should have the rights to practice and believe in Judaism without fear of discrimination, persecution, or any other form of violence. They should be able to vote, hold the highest possible offices, and be free to travel, worship, etc, in however way the law allows everyone in common.

Believing that the Jews follow a false religion that is condemnatory is not Anti-semitic; it is only orthodox Christian. Believing that any sort of observation of Jewish feast or belief that is contrary to Christianity for religious reasons is an act of apostacy and heresy isn't Anti-semitic; it is Christian orthodoxy. I'm not going to be bullied by those who don't even know what Anti-semitism is to be fasely accused of it nor to give up the pure, orthodox Christian faith. Not happening.

So please, by all means, all Christian Zionists continue the crusade against me and others with false accusations of Anti-semitism. Persecute us! Jesus the Christ said that I am among the blessed in the Beatitudes by it, and by other sayings, well, we all know them.

Despite what modern Judaism may say or Christians claim...a Jew does not stop being a Jew because He believes in Messiah Yeshua, in the same way that a Gentile does not stop being a Gentile because he has believed in the L-rd Jesus

Sorry, Judaism has always disagreed with this. What you say is typically believed by many so-called "Messianic Jews" (another misnomer), but it is historically false.

...many Jews that believe in Yeshua prefer to be called Messianic, some don't mind being referred to as Jewish Christians etc...but it all amounts to the same thing in the end...the Church is comprised of Believing Jews and Believing Gentiles.

Misnomer. Judaism, whether anyone else likes it or not, is a Messianic religion because the very term "Messianic" refers to any sort of Messiah-like being. All Jews, if they are true to their religion, are Messianic because Judaism teaches of a coming Messiah. Their definition of that Messiah excludes Jesus, which is why they are wrong in their beliefs, but that's a particularlist, theological interpretation that has no bearing on the the dictionary definition.

Muslims are equally Messianic in very similar ways Jews are, making Islam as much a Messianic religion as Judaism and Christianity...and Zoroastrianism and a number of other religions really.

No Jew can be a Christian unless he or she abandons Judaism. In actual historic Jewish belief, that person is no longer a Jew. Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel would have a field day with posts like this!

The Jews most definately are G-ds chosen people.

They are not God's People. They are outside the visible Church and are therefore outside God's grace visibly. Only Christians are God's People in the sense you describe. The Jews forsook Jesus and have been cast out.

.doesn't mean they get a free ticket to Heaven, but it means they are the people group on this earth that He covenanted with, and they are meant to be representative of Him as a nation. 'Chosen' doesn't mean 'elite'...it is an act of G-ds sovereign will to display His glory through the descendents of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob....He chose them because He chose them.

This is not historic, orthodox Christian teaching. No Jew, least he or she forsakes Judaism and being a Jew and becomes a Christian, is membered in the True Israel. They are outside.

I agree with you on your thoughts about Christian theology and on many other things
but the person you are quoting is, in his own way, trying to show the utmost respect for God, and even though using the spelling "G-d" is not our custom, we should respect the sentiment and try to learn from his deep love of our Lor

Usually I'm fine with custom, but when it is out of a non-salvific religion, then it needs to be ended. Jews don't spell it out because of their Jewish beliefs. Christianity rejects those beliefs because of theological grounds. Therefore, to hold onto them for any religious reason is a rebellion against Christ. That's why the ancient Church forbade celebration of Jewish feasts by Christians; fine for the Jews, but for Christians to celebrate them, it implies a faith in them.

In other words, observing a non-Christian ritual or feast or celebration is one thing. There's no harm in it, and I believe people should be educated to learn what other religions actually teach, belief, and practice instead of hearing it from some crazed and bigoted televangelist or pastor (the world would be a far better place - less reliance on lies and bigotry and more on reality and truth.). However, participating in it is an entirely different animal.

G-d, L-rd, "Yeshua", is all Judaic, not Christian. Reverence is commendable, but Jewish reverence like this has no place among Christians. The Jews are more than welcome to use those terms and if they wish to be good orthodox Jews, I hope that they would! However, for a Christian to use them would violate essential aspects of key Christian theology. That is why I cannot stand it when Christians do such things.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Time to unsubscribe.

There's nothing more to say from my perspective.

God bless and keep you all.

 

[Habakk]

There is no such thing as replacement theology; it is a weasel term used against the historic and orthodox Christian theology by certain Evangelical Protestants. The vast majority of Protestants and all Apostolic/Catholic churches adhere to supersessionism or at least Covenant theology and rightly so. All else is contrary to the Gospel, unorthodox, and unhistorical.

The charge of antisemitism towards supersessionism and its adherents is nothing more than a pick-choose of carefully selected snippets of writings and occurrences along with old heretical beliefs mixed in. If they want to find real antisemitic theology, they need to target the conspiracy-theorist British/Anglo-Israelists and their heretical theology, not the only true and orthodox Christian theology right with God, supersessionism.

That’s your opinion but unfortunately it will not remove the history of anti-Semitism that resulted due to the misuse of replacement and other bad theology. From the middle ages the Roman Catholic Church and clergy have held the Jewish people collectively responsible for the killing of Jesus. So no use blaming evangelicals or starting denomination bible wars.

During 11th, 12th and 13th centuries there was massive full scale persecution of Jews resulting in practices blood libels, expulsions, forced conversions (including forced eating of non kosher food) and massacres. Crusades, expulsions and banishment continued for many long years they were even blamed for the Black Death. Papal States confined Jews to live in designated ghettoes.

In the 19th century the Roman Catholic Church made a distinction between good and bad anti Semitism. Catholic bishops wrote much condemning the Jews.

A history of massacred hurt and confused Jewish people who can’t understand why Christian theology has robbed them of compassion and humanity.

Replacement theology was a direct precursor to the final solution and the holocaust. This is misused theology in the wrong hands.

I truly endeavour to get along with my Christian brothers and sisters in Christ. I am an evangelical but have several good catholic and Anglican friends. I would never post such a thread on the GT board (a similar thread was closed at the OP’s request) but it is here and as a Christian I feel obligated to speak on behalf of injustices to the Jewish people validated by history.
God bless you all.

 

[Habakk]

There is no such thing as replacement theology; it is a weasel term used against the historic and orthodox Christian theology by certain Evangelical Protestants. The vast majority of Protestants and all Apostolic/Catholic churches adhere to supersessionism or at least Covenant theology and rightly so. All else is contrary to the Gospel, unorthodox, and unhistorical.

The charge of antisemitism towards supersessionism and its adherents is nothing more than a pick-choose of carefully selected snippets of writings and occurrences along with old heretical beliefs mixed in. If they want to find real antisemitic theology, they need to target the conspiracy-theorist British/Anglo-Israelists and their heretical theology, not the only true and orthodox Christian theology right with God, supersessionism.

That’s your opinion but unfortunately it will not remove the history of anti-Semitism that resulted due to the misuse of replacement and other bad theology. From the middle ages the Roman Catholic Church and clergy have held the Jewish people collectively responsible for the killing of Jesus. So no use blaming evangelicals or starting denomination bible wars.

During 11th, 12th and 13th centuries there was massive full scale persecution of Jews resulting in practices of blood libels, expulsions, forced conversions (including forced eating of non kosher food) and massacres. Crusades, expulsions and banishment continued for many long years they were even blamed for the Black Death. Papal States confined Jews to live in designated ghettoes.

In the 19th century the Roman Catholic Church made a distinction between good and bad anti Semitism. Catholic bishops wrote much condemning the Jews.

A history of massacred, hurt and confused Jewish people who can’t understand why Christian theology has robbed them of compassion and humanity.

Replacement theology was a direct precursor to the final solution and the holocaust. This is misused theology in the wrong hands.

I truly endeavour to get along with my Christian brothers and sisters in Christ. I am an evangelical but have several good Catholic and Anglican friends. I would never post such a thread on the GT board (a similar thread was closed at the OP’s request) but it is here and as a Christian I feel obligated to speak on behalf of injustices to the Jewish people validated by history.

God bless you all.

 

[Cappadocious]

Replacement theology was a direct precursor to the final solution and the holocaust.

Nonsense.

 

[Habakk]

Nonsense.

Most certainly not nonsense, read about what Hitler did and how he used church doctrine in his propaganda campaign of hatred against the Jews. Or ask some surviving Jews if it was nonsense.

 

[Cappadocious]

Most certainly not nonsense, read about what Hitler did and how he used church doctrine in his propaganda campaign of hatred against the Jews.

And you think that particular piece of propaganda caused the holocaust? Not saying religious polemics helped, but come on.

You won't find historians backing that up.

Most lay the blame on nationalism.

Anyone who has even a high school level exposure to Western History 1800-2000 knows that your claim is silly.

Also, I want everyone to notice how his claim has changed. First it was that "replacement theology" was "a direct precursor" to the Holocaust. Now his claim is merely that Hitler "used church doctrine" in his propaganda. See, there is no real substance here.

 

[Habakk]

And you think that particular piece of propaganda caused the holocaust? Not saying religious polemics helped, but come on.

Also, I want everyone to notice how his claim has changed. First it was that "replacement theology" was "a direct precursor" to the Holocaust. Now his claim is merely that Hitler "used church doctrine" in his propaganda. See, there is no real substance here.

Same thing, same claim.

Lets just agree to disagree, this is a Christian debate forum and I will concentrate on the debate.

 

[Cappadocious]

Manufactured controversy: The tastiest kind.

 

[Habakk]

Manufactured controversy: The tastiest kind.

I ask again, lets just agree to disagree, I dont have time or the inclination for personal arguments or insults.

 

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