Replacement Theology "anti-semitic"?

[Habakk]

I saw this coming when I closed my thread lol

Yes me too, it always seems to happen on the GT forum.

I don’t know what good will come of a thread like this, it would have been better to let things calm down after the other thread was closed. It is concerning how many anti Semitic threads they are on the forums around CF.

My reaction when I first saw this thread was “Oh no, why?” So sad.

 

[Lovely Lane]

I saw this coming when I closed my thread lol

yep, turn the topic into a race issue is usually the best tactic to use when all else fails.
The new testament replaced the old, the Church is the chosen people.

 

[Lovely Lane]

Please not the "you guys” here did not start this thread and I doubt if any of us would after recent debate on the GT forum. However as it has been started, it is being addressed by others who are deeply concerned about the issues of misused theology. Some have even witnessed things first hand.

misused theology? wow, that's a new one. Any one can be racist, don't need theology to mask it.

 

[Lovely Lane]

Yes me too, it always seems to happen on the GT forum.

I don’t know what good will come of a thread like this, it would have been better to let things calm down after the other thread was closed. It is concerning how many anti Semitic threads they are on the forums around CF.

My reaction when I first saw this thread was “Oh no, why?” So sad.

your post #53 isn't full of good will is it?
You seem to push your version of what replacement theology is and that's end of story. I don't agree with your version, and the new covenant is for the Church which replaced the unrepentant Jew and all others who refuse Christ.
How about promoting a Pro-Christ thread on CF, there isn't any anti semitic issue here unless for those who wish to make it one.

 

[Habakk]

your post #53 isn't full of good will is it?
You seem to push your version of what replacement theology is and that's end of story. I don't agree with your version, and the new covenant is for the Church which replaced the unrepentant Jew and all others who refuse Christ.
How about promoting a Pro-Christ thread on CF, there isn't any anti semitic issue here unless for those who wish to make it one.

No it’s a very small part of what actually did historicaly happen.

And I don’t have a version of replacement theology. However a question was asked on this thread so please don’t blame me for that. The way it’s resolved is that we agree to disagree and leave it there. Ad hominem attacks on posters is against CF rules and is not the way to partake in a debate.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Habakk

That’s fine for the armchair theologians but in the real world it has proven to not work like that. Misuse of theology was rampant and without any Christian compassion resulting in real tangible horrors, suffering and inhuman atrocities.

​

Add to the list that , in a 95% Catholic town in the USA , the Jews were always spoken of with venom in their words . In the religion classes thrust upon me , the Jews were the main reason for the Lord's death - very little mentioned about *our* sins being the main reason and full innocence on Rome and its soldiers for killing a man their government declared to be not guilty .

Jesus didn't bring condemnation on all the common Judeans, but rather on the Judean rulers

I would say Jesus came to replace the OC Judean Mosaic Levitical Priesthood with the spiritual Priesthood according to Melchizedek

Kindgdom Bible Studies Royal Priesthood Part 24
THE MELCHIZEDEK CONNECTION

John is good read on that, especially 19:11

Jhn 9:41
Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin;
but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.
Jhn 15:22
If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin.
Jhn 15:24
If I had not done among them the works no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin.
As it is, they have seen, and yet they have hated both me and my Father.
Jhn 19:11
Jesus answered, "You would have no power over Me if it were not given to you from above.
Therefore the one who handed Me over to you is guilty of greater sin."

http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Lazarus
JESUS VS THE JEWISH RULERS






.

 

[Lovely Lane]

only conclusion is to disagree on a presented version about the Church being above all. I support the Church, not Israel, not the Jew and not others who refuse Christ. It's real simple.

 

[Cappadocious]

1826 Pope Leo decreed that Jews were to be confined to ghettoes and their property confiscated.

1826 Pope Pius X said “Jews have not recognised our Lord; therefore we cannot recognise the Jewish people”.

In the 19th century the Roman Catholic Church made a distinction between good and bad anti Semitism. Catholic bishops wrote much condemning the Jews.

1921 A Vatican spokesman said the Catholic Church did not wish to assist the Jewish race which is permeated with a rebellious spirit.

1925 At a conference in Innsbruck Austria, Roman Catholic Bishop Sigismund Waitz said Jews were an alien people.

1939 Josef Tiso, a Catholic priest began exporting Jews to Nazi concentration camps. He said, “It is Christian action to expel the Jews, because it is for the good of the people getting rid of the pests”.

Fascinating how all of these events take place during the rise of nationalism.

 

[Habakk]

Fascinating how all of these events take place during the rise of nationalism.

That’s not all the events only a few. The full list covers more than sixteen centuries. So nationalism is not an excuse.

 

[Habakk]

Jesus didn't bring condemnation on all the common Judeans, but rather on the Judean rulers

I would say Jesus came to replace the OC Judean Mosaic Levitical Priesthood with the spiritual Priesthood according to Melchizedek

Kindgdom Bible Studies Royal Priesthood Part 24
THE MELCHIZEDEK CONNECTION

John is good read on that, especially 19:11

Jhn 9:41
Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin;
but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.
Jhn 15:22
If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin.
Jhn 15:24
If I had not done among them the works no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin.
As it is, they have seen, and yet they have hated both me and my Father.
Jhn 19:11
Jesus answered, "You would have no power over Me if it were not given to you from above.
Therefore the one who handed Me over to you is guilty of greater sin."

http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Lazarus
JESUS VS THE JEWISH RULERS

I think we can all agree with that and most of the rulers did not survive after 70 AD.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I think we can all agree with that and most of the rulers did not survive after 70 AD.

The Sadducees were part of the Priesthood and thus could have been a more formidable foe than even the Pharisees.
Not much is really known of the Sadducees, and could Jesus be considered "anti-Jewish/Semitic" because of his condemnation of them?

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
Strong's Number G4523 matches the Greek Σαδδουκαῖος (Saddoukaios), which occurs 14 times in 14 verses in the Greek concordance

Mat 3:7
And having seen many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming about his baptism, he said to them,
"Brood of vipers! who did shew you to flee from the being about wrath"?

The Sadducees | Bible.org - Worlds Largest Bible Study Site

One of the major difficulties in describing the Sadducees is that all that we know about them comes from their opponents. They themselves left no written records of their history, their organization, or their views.
They appear on the scene just before the great schism between the Hellenizers and the Hasidim, and they disappear as a group in the great destruction of 70 A.D.
But judging from the comments in the New Testament, the Mishnah, and Josephus, they do form a formidable group.

Many priests belonged to the Sadducees according to Josephus,11 but not all priests were Sadducees. The New Testament shows a close association between the Priests and the Sadducees (Acts 4:1 and 5:17).
According to Josephus, Ananus, a Sadducee, had five sons who all became High Priests. While it is probable that the members of the priestly aristocracy were Sadducees, many priests were Pharisees. It was the priests of the Pharisees who were sent to question John (Jn. 1:19-24). And according to Acts 23, both Sadducees and Pharisees made up the Sanhedrin because Paul rallied the members who were Pharisees to his side.



.

 

[Zeek]

Israel has been replaced by the Christian Church, sounds what the new testament is all about. I agree with that.

Funny...last time I looked on a map I saw this slither of land in the Middle-East that said ISRAEL, not CHURCH.

When I read my Bible, I see that Jesus is going to return to the earth via ISRAEL, not the CHURCH.

So what you are doing is throwing out some unbiblical stanza and then agreeing with it...peculiar to say the least, but its a free country and you can choose to believe the Moon is cheese if you want, but it doesn't make it true.

 

[Zeek]

I saw this coming when I closed my thread lol

Ochhh, you've got to batten down the hatches in these sorts of exchanges and stick to your guns...never be afraid of an argument or debate, especially if you have passionate conviction about something...yes it can get a bit heated at times, but you have to expect that and try not to take things personally.

Obviously if people don't want to get involved, they have the choice to stay out and engage elsewhere, but if you've got something to say then learn to argue your case...IMO too many Christians are rather passive, and don't like argument and get upset when the heat gets turned up... ok sometimes things can be unprofitable and a bit nasty, but generally I find that in robust exchanges you actually learn something and get challenged in ways you might not have imagined.

Anyway that's my take on things...I realise the thread you started was on advice as to what Replacement Theology actually entails, and it kinda ran away from you...but maybe you will be able to put the pieces together over time and get a clearer understanding...who knows, reading posts here as well might have benefit.

Kind regards. Zeek

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Funny...last time I looked on a map I saw this slither of land in the Middle-East that said ISRAEL, not CHURCH.

When I read my Bible, I see that Jesus is going to return to the earth via ISRAEL, not the CHURCH.

So what you are doing is throwing out some unbiblical stanza and then agreeing with it...peculiar to say the least, but its a free country and you can choose to believe the Moon is cheese if you want, but it doesn't make it true.

QFT!

Glad I am in Texas

Act 2:20
The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD

Eze 38:19
"For in My jealousy [and] in the fire of My wrath I have spoken: 'Surely in that day there shall be a great earthquake ground of Israel,

Rev 6:12
I looked when He opened the sixth seal and behold! there was a great earthquake;
and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.


.

 

[Lovely Lane]

Funny...last time I looked on a map I saw this slither of land in the Middle-East that said ISRAEL, not CHURCH.

When I read my Bible, I see that Jesus is going to return to the earth via ISRAEL, not the CHURCH.

So what you are doing is throwing out some unbiblical stanza and then agreeing with it...peculiar to say the least, but its a free country and you can choose to believe the Moon is cheese if you want, but it doesn't make it true.

show me some verses of what you state here.
And I don't believed I made fun of your posts, so what's with the moon and cheese thing? (it being Americans that proved the moon is rock not cheese btw)

 

[Zeek]

show me some verses of what you state here.
And I don't believed I made fun of your posts, so what's with the moon and cheese thing? (it being Americans that proved the moon is rock not cheese btw)

Nothing malicious...sometimes a bit of pointed/barbed humour gets the point across, it's just another method of delivering the message.

In response to your challenge:

Zech:14
3Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle. 4In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.

16Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths.

Here we see that at the return of the L-rd, not only is it to Israel that He returns, but it is from Jerusalem that He reigns, and every nation that is left will sent representatives yearly to celebrate the Feast of Booths (Succoth)

Amos talks of the restoration of Israel as a nation...something that many deride because they think it has to be initially established in righteousness, but my understanding is that G-ds program includes the physical restoration of the people back to their land, and then their spiritual restoration to Him through recognizing their Messiah.

YHWH specifically identifies Himself with Israel..they have not been cast aside as a nation, but restored, and it is within the nation that His plans for them as His people Israel will unfold.

Amos 9:
14“Also I will restore the captivity of My people Israel,
And they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them;
They will also plant vineyards and drink their wine,
And make gardens and eat their fruit.
15“I will also plant them on their land,
And they will not again be rooted out from their land
Which I have given them,”
Says the LORD your God.

Where does this leave the Church...we are beloved by G-d, we have been bought with a price (the blood of the Lamb), and the L-rd will come for His glorious Bride both Jews and Gentiles that know Jesus.

My contention is that as individuals that know the mercy, grace and love of G-d, even when we were afar off and in rebellion against Him...we should seek G-ds favour on His people Israel, pray for them, encourage them, stand with them and not repeat the mistakes of the past where we despised them, denegrated them and called them Christ-Killers.

The underlying sin of Replacement Theology is that it causes people who embrace it to dismiss Israel, and to skim over what the Bible says about Israel, and how G-d views His people Israel, even when they have been stubborn and rebellious, He has not cast them adrift forever and just as His mercy has reached out to us, so in these days His mercy is being extended to the children of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Jer 31:
37Thus says the LORD,
“If the heavens above can be measured
And the foundations of the earth searched out below,
Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel
For all that they have done,” declares the LORD.

 

[Habakk]

show me some verses of what you state here.
And I don't believed I made fun of your posts, so what's with the moon and cheese thing? (it being Americans that proved the moon is rock not cheese btw)

There are a multitude of prophetic verses in scripture concerning Israel. It all depends on your view of eschatology, but any pure historic view will only give you a partial fulfilment of prophecy. That is one of the real arguments associated with replacement theology, because I believe that God will do exactly as he says he will in his written word.

Let’s be realistic God doesn’t curse a people and then go on a 2000 year rampage persecuting a nation and inflicting them with unspeakable torture, atrocities and murder. Men have done that and a lot of Christian men with bad theology have played their part. A lot of Jews are simply fearful of Christian theology, however in these last days Jews are also finding Yeshua as their Messiah. I know messianic Jews that are adding much to the church and also act as a bridge to preach to orthodox Jews concerning the gospel.

One lady I heard of after hearing the Gospel grabbed the preacher saying “I need to know more, because if this is true then Jesus is our messiah.” After hearing the scriptures she fell to her knees in tears and accepted the saviour. How glorious will be that day when all Israel sees whom they pierced and weep.

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn (Zechariah 12:10).

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob (Romans 11:26).

The Apostle Paul said that Israel was blinded for a season for the sake of the gentiles, that we might have the Gospel. BUT God PROMISED in his word that he would again restore his people and the nation of Israel. Even while they were in a state of blind unbelief. Today we see the unfolding of that amazing miracle transpire before our eyes. God said that he would bless those that bless Israel and he would curse those that curse Israel.

There is a multitude of biblical prophecy that can’t be fulfilled without a physical nation of Israel. It is alright saying that the Church is the spiritual Israel but then you terminate the promises concerning the land.

 

[Lovely Lane]

Nothing malicious...sometimes a bit of pointed/barbed humour gets the point across, it's just another method of delivering the message.

In response to your challenge:

Zech:14
3Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle. 4In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.

16Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths.

Here we see that at the return of the L-rd, not only is it to Israel that He returns, but it is from Jerusalem that He reigns, and every nation that is left will sent representatives yearly to celebrate the Feast of Booths (Succoth)

Amos talks of the restoration of Israel as a nation...something that many deride because they think it has to be initially established in righteousness, but my understanding is that G-ds program includes the physical restoration of the people back to their land, and then their spiritual restoration to Him through recognizing their Messiah.

YHWH specifically identifies Himself with Israel..they have not been cast aside as a nation, but restored, and it is within the nation that His plans for them as His people Israel will unfold.

Amos 9:
14“Also I will restore the captivity of My people Israel,
And they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them;
They will also plant vineyards and drink their wine,
And make gardens and eat their fruit.
15“I will also plant them on their land,
And they will not again be rooted out from their land
Which I have given them,”
Says the LORD your God.

Where does this leave the Church...we are beloved by G-d, we have been bought with a price (the blood of the Lamb), and the L-rd will come for His glorious Bride both Jews and Gentiles that know Jesus.

My contention is that as individuals that know the mercy, grace and love of G-d, even when we were afar off and in rebellion against Him...we should seek G-ds favour on His people Israel, pray for them, encourage them, stand with them and not repeat the mistakes of the past where we despised them, denegrated them and called them Christ-Killers.

The underlying sin of Replacement Theology is that it causes people who embrace it to dismiss Israel, and to skim over what the Bible says about Israel, and how G-d views His people Israel, even when they have been stubborn and rebellious, He has not cast them adrift forever and just as His mercy has reached out to us, so in these days His mercy is being extended to the children of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Jer 31:
37Thus says the LORD,
“If the heavens above can be measured
And the foundations of the earth searched out below,
Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel
For all that they have done,” declares the LORD.

thanks
but ancient Israel isn't today's Israel. Got anything in regards to NT, where the Church replaces Israel because the Jews refused Christ?

 

[Lovely Lane]

There are a multitude of prophetic verses in scripture concerning Israel. It all depends on your view of eschatology, but any pure historic view will only give you a partial fulfilment of prophecy. That is one of the real arguments associated with replacement theology, because I believe that God will do exactly as he says he will in his written word.

Let’s be realistic God doesn’t curse a people and then go on a 2000 year rampage persecuting a nation and inflicting them with unspeakable torture, atrocities and murder. Men have done that and a lot of Christian men with bad theology have played their part. A lot of Jews are simply fearful of Christian theology, however in these last days Jews are also finding Yeshua as their Messiah. I know messianic Jews that are adding much to the church and also act as a bridge to preach to orthodox Jews concerning the gospel.

One lady I heard of after hearing the Gospel grabbed the preacher saying “I need to know more, because if this is true then Jesus is our messiah.” After hearing the scriptures she fell to her knees in tears and accepted the saviour. How glorious will be that day when all Israel sees whom they pierced and weep.

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn (Zechariah 12:10).

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob (Romans 11:26).

The Apostle Paul said that Israel was blinded for a season for the sake of the gentiles, that we might have the Gospel. BUT God PROMISED in his word that he would again restore his people and the nation of Israel. Even while they were in a state of blind unbelief. Today we see the unfolding of that amazing miracle transpire before our eyes. God said that he would bless those that bless Israel and he would curse those that curse Israel.

There is a multitude of biblical prophecy that can’t be fulfilled without a physical nation of Israel. It is alright saying that the Church is the spiritual Israel but then you terminate the promises concerning the land.

It sure will take the power of God to change the Jews opinion. They didn't comply in first century and they haven't in the 21st century. Because they are as lost as the Muslim, and all others who refuse Christ. It's real simple to me, why others make it difficult to prove their brand of interpretation amazes me. The Church is Israel, Israel is the Church, The Church is all believers, the Jews and all others who refuse Christ just don't get a boarding ticket. And the train is coming.

 

[Habakk]

thanks
but ancient Israel isn't today's Israel. Got anything in regards to NT, where the Church replaces Israel because the Jews refused Christ?

Yes, a lot.

Here are two:

And so ALL ISRAEL shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob (Romans 11:26).

For I would not, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles comes in (Romans 11:25).