Repentance and Sin No More, Perfection and Born of the Spirit

[Xavier Cane]

A Biblical Defense of Sinless Perfectionism:

Sinless Perfectionism is the goal of our Sanctification. It is yet another Biblical doctrine that is commonly misunderstood and or denied amongst Eternal Security Proponents or those who do not believe that “Sin Cannot Separate a Believer From God.” Here is a...

List of Verses For Sinless Perfectionism (a.k.a. Entire Sanctification) in Scripture:

1. The 144,000 are found without fault before the throne of God. For John says, “And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.” (Revelation 14:3-5).
   
   
2. Enoch was translated and did not see death because he walked with the LORD and pleased GOD. For the author of Hebrews says, “By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.” (Hebrews 11:5); And Moses had written in the Torah, “And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.” (Genesis 5:24).
   
   
3. Jesus says, “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matthew 5:48).
   
   
4. GOD says, “Be ye holy as I am holy” (1 Peter 1:16 cf. Leviticus 11:45).
   
   
5. Jesus said to two people to, "sin no more." (John 5:14) (John 8:11). In fact, Jesus said to the man that Jesus healed that if he were to sin again, a worse thing would come upon him. For Jesus said, “sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.” (John 5:14).
   
   
6. Jesus says, “If you want to be perfect sell your possessions and give them to the poor” (Matthew 19:21).
   
   
7. We are told in Scripture that he [i.e. anyone] that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin. For Peter says, “Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;” (1 Peter 4:1).
   
   
8. Paul says, “And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.” (Galatians 5:24).
   
   
9. James says, “If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.” (James 3:2).
   
   
10. Paul says, “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.” (1 Corinthians 10:13).
    
    
11. David says, “Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.” (Psalms 119:11).
    
    
12. Paul says, “Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him” (Romans 6:6-8).
    
    
13. Paul says, “Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.” (Romans 6:12). John says, “sin not.” (1 John 2:1).
    
    
14. Paul says, “For sin shall not have dominion over you.” (Romans 6:14).
    
    
15. Paul says, “Don't you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living.” (Romans NLT). Jesus says, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. (John 8:34). John says he that sins is of the devil (1 John 1:8).
    
    
16. Paul says, “You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.” (Romans 6:18 NIV).
    
    
17. Paul says, “For when you were slaves of sin, you were free from righteousness.” (Romans 6:20 BLB). Paul also says, “But now that you have been freed from sin and have become God's slaves, the benefit you reap is sanctification, and the result is eternal life.” (Romans 6:22 ISV).
    
    
18. Peter says, “there are false prophets... who cannot cease from sin.” (2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:14). This is similar to those who are lovers of pleasure more than they are lovers of GOD (1 Timothy 3:1-9). For he that says he knows him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in Him (1 John 2:4).
    
    
19. Jesus says, “Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.” (Matthew 26:41). What is the point of watching and praying so as not to be led into temptation if you are going to inevitably sin again?
    
    
20. Paul says “Be ye angry, and sin not:” (Ephesians 4:26).
    
    
21. John says, “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:9-10)
    
    
22. John says,“For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.” (1 John 5:4). John also says, “For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.” (1 John 2:16). For John says, “Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.” (1 John 2:15).
    
    
23. Paul says, “Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.” (1 Corinthians 15:34).
    
    
24. The author of Hebrews says, “Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen” (Hebrews 13:20-21).
    
    
25. John says, “We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness” (1 John 5:18-19).
    
    
26. Sinless Perfectionism is the goal for a believer’s life. For Paul says, “Not that I have already obtained it [this goal of being Christlike] or have already been made perfect, but I actively press on so that I may take hold of that [perfection] for which Christ Jesus took hold of me and made me His own.” (Philippians 3:12 AMP).
    
    
27. Jesus says, “The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.” (Luke 6:40).
    
    
28. Paul says, “Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.” (Colossians 4:12).
    
    
29. Paul says, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17).
    
    
30. James says, “But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.” (James 1:4). James also says, ““Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?” (James 2:22).
    
    
31. Jesus says, ““Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.” (Revelation 3:2).
    
    
32. Paul says, “Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” (2 Corinthians 7:1).
    
    
33. Paul says, “I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,” (Ephesians 4:1).
    
    
34. Paul says, “For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;” (1 Thessalonians 4:3-4). Paul also says, “For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.” (1 Thessalonians 4:7).
    
    
35. Zacharias says, “That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.” (Luke 1:74-75).
    
    
36. Paul says, “And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;” (Colossians 1:20-23).
    
    
37. Paul says, “And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love for one another and for all men, even as we do for you. To this end may He establish your hearts to be blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.” (1 Thessalonians 3:12-13 MEV).
    
    
38. Paul says,“Men, brothers, I have conducted-myself with all good conscience before God up to this day” (Acts 23:1 DLNT)
    
    
39. Paul says, “This work must continue until we are all joined together in the same faith [or all reach unity in the faith] and in the same knowledge of the Son of God. We must become like a mature person [or the perfect Man; Christ], growing until we become like Christ and have his perfection [ to the measure of the stature of Christ’s fullness ].” (Ephesians 4:13 EXB).
    
    
40. Paul says, “It is he whom we proclaim, admonishing everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone perfect in Christ” (Colossians 1:28 NABRE).
    
    
41. Paul says, “For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.” (2 Corinthians 11:2).
    
    
42. Paul says, “In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ” (Colossians 2:11).
    
    
43. Paul says, “And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Thessalonians 5:23).
    
    
44. The author Hebrews says, “Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord” (Hebrews 12:14).
    
    
45. Paul says, “Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish” (Ephesians 5:25-27). Jesus says, “Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.” (John 17:17-19). For Jesus says, “Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you” (John 15:3).
    
    
46. John says, “For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.” (1 John 3:8).
    
    
47. Paul says, “But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).
    
    
48. Jesus says, “So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Matthew 22:10-13). A Multitude of People in Heaven says, “Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.(Revelation 19:7-8). Note: the fine linen that represents the righteousness of the saints is the same wedding garment that the man at the wedding did not have on.
    
    
49. Paul says, “That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world.” (Philippians 2:15).
    
    
50. John says, “But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.” (1 John 2:5).

Real world example:

An alcoholic can condone his alcohol by him saying he can drink occasionally on his way to being sober free. But he will never be sober free because he has no intention of stopping. He is hoping one day somebody else will stop him.


...

This only applies to you if you believe in sinless perfection.

You know, satan deceived eve with the Word of God. All those scriptures you placed, but have no idea what any of them mean seemingly.sinless and perfect, and no man will ever be that on this side of the grave. Plane and simple. All other thinking is foolish. Read Romans Chapter 7. Paul was a saved man. Yet he was not perfect and cried out to God...Who shall deliver me from the body of this death? Then John went on to say that any man who says they have no sin is a liar, and the truth is not in them.

You need to Go back and study the original language of those texts you gave and seek the Spirit of God for clarity. Sanctification is a process, but it is a continual process as far as people are concerned. Every day we grow closer to Christ and we learn to trust him and believe him. Plane and simple.

If only people were honest, they would declare themselves sinful and not worthy of Grace. Even the most devoted children of God sin every single day. To complain is a sin. To not say yes when you can say yes is a sin. Anything that is done outside of faith is sin. If a person knows to do a good deed and does not that deed, it is sin. Sin covers a broad stroke, not just the ones we can see with our human eyes. Pride itself....Yeah, look at me, look what I did...Sin. All Glory goes to God. Whatever you do, in word or deed, do unto the glory of God. Have you done this? If not, it is sin. Do you always say thank you and show gratitude to God for the good and the bad in your life? if not, it is sin. (I say you in general, not you specifically)

God bless.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To add to 1 Timothy 6:3-4,

James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.


...

 

[Xavier Cane]

Sorry. You are not a law keeper if you break God's Law. A belief on Jesus does not make you a Law keeper. Be not deceived he that does righteousness is righteous (1 John 3:7). He that commits sin is of the devil (1 John 3:8); And all who do evil hate that light (John 3:20).

Also,

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

In addition, when Paul spoke out against the Law he was referring to the 613 Laws of Moses (i.e. the Old Testament Laws as a whole). It is why Paul condemned circumcision alongside talking about the "law." Circumcision is a part of the Commands in the Old Testament and they are not a part of the Commands in the New Testament. Paul was not against obeying God's Commands under the New Testament.

Paul says if any speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, they are proud and they know nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Paul says you can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16).

The author of Hebrews says that without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).
This lines up with what Jesus said on the Sermon on the Mount.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God (Matthew 5:8).


...

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


Bam. LOL Paul was saved and filled with the Sprit of God. An unsaved man could care less if he offends God. It is because he is saved that he cares and desires to live for God. Amen.

 

[Xavier Cane]

Sorry. You are not a law keeper if you break God's Law. A belief on Jesus does not make you a Law keeper. Be not deceived he that does righteousness is righteous (1 John 3:7). He that commits sin is of the devil (1 John 3:8); And all who do evil hate that light (John 3:20).

Also,

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

In addition, when Paul spoke out against the Law he was referring to the 613 Laws of Moses (i.e. the Old Testament Laws as a whole). It is why Paul condemned circumcision alongside talking about the "law." Circumcision is a part of the Commands in the Old Testament and they are not a part of the Commands in the New Testament. Paul was not against obeying God's Commands under the New Testament.

Paul says if any speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, they are proud and they know nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Paul says you can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16).

The author of Hebrews says that without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).
This lines up with what Jesus said on the Sermon on the Mount.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God (Matthew 5:8).


...

You sir mis the entire point of Jesus death on the Cross. wow.

◄ Philippians 3 ►
King James Bible
Righteousness through Faith

1Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.

2Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. 3For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. 4Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: 5Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Knowing Christ is Above All

7But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 8Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, 9And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 10That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Press on Toward the Goal

12Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14I

 

[Xavier Cane]

It is all done by faith. This is the problem with the modern church, and this is why there is no victory, A denial of Christ and What he has done. Separating Him from his work.

And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words. 5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ. 6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

 

[cgaviria]

The author never said he was sinless or that he considered himself one of the ones who was baptized in the holy spirit. I asked him twice on 2 of his threads and he didnt answer either time. So I have to assume that he is just stating what he believes....just like the rest of people who study and teach before making it. I find no fault in it.

Excellent perception. You are correct in what you said.

 

[RaymondG]

Excellent perception. You are correct in what you said.

May God bless you on your journey to heaven.

 

[Xavier Cane]

Pride is built when men Deny the grace of God and think that they can somhow sanctify themselves by their good works...Just like Paul said...Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

The scripture does not lie. Though you may lack understanding, the word of God is true, let every man be a lie. Whatsoever is without faith is sin. Romans 14:23

 

[Xavier Cane]

Excellent perception. You are correct in what you said.

I said - That is if you think you are sinless and perfect. IDK if that applies to you or not.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This only applies to you if you believe in sinless perfection.

No. The Bible will still be true regardless if you accept it or not.

You know, satan deceived eve with the Word of God.

And what was the lesson in that?
Eve bought into the lie that she could sin and still be saved.
For the devil told Eve, "yea, ye shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4).
Yet, she did die. She died spiritually.
And the devil is still selling this lie with people today.

All those scriptures you placed, but have no idea what any of them mean seemingly.sinless and perfect, and no man will ever be that on this side of the grave. Plane and simple.

Not true. 1 Peter 4:1-2 says that you can cease from sin in this life here. For we are told to live the rest of our time here not to the lusts of the flesh but to the will of God.

All other thinking is foolish.

If everyone's thinking was foolish, would that not mean that no person can instruct one another in God's ways?

Read Romans Chapter 7. Paul was a saved man. Yet he was not perfect and cried out to God...Who shall deliver me from the body of this death? Then John went on to say that any man who says they have no sin is a liar, and the truth is not in them.

As for Romans 7:

Peter says this about Paul's writings,
"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:16).

In Romans 7:1-6, Paul is telling Messianic Christians (i.e. those brethren who know Old Testament Law - Romans 7:1) that the Old Law is dead and that they should serve in newness of Spirit (i.e. the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed) and not in oldness of the letter (i.e. the Torah, etc.). This makes sense because Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. This lines up with the temple veil being torn from top to bottom when Christ died (Which started the New Covenant officially). The Old Testament Laws on animal sacrifices was no longer in effect anymore and Jesus Christ was now our passover Lamb or perfect sacrifice. Hence, why Romans 7:2 says, "if the husband [i.e. Jesus] be dead, she [i.e. the body of believers] is loosed from the law [i.e. the Old Law] of her husband."

In Romans 7:7-13, Paul is recounting Israelite history and speaking as a Jew throughout time with the coming in of the Law of Moses and what that was like.

In Romans 7:14-24, Paul is recounting his experience as a Pharisee before he became a Christian. Paul (Saul) is describing his experience of what it is like to struggle in keeping the Old Covenant Law that did not include Jesus Christ.

It is true that the use of first-person present verbs in the passage (“I am” “I practice” “I want” “I hate” “I do”) sounds like Paul is talking about his present experience. But Paul sometimes uses “I” in a rhetorical sense to describe generic experience rather than his own present experience (1 Corinthians 10:30; 1 Corinthians 13:2-3, 1 Corinthians 13:11). In at least one other place, Paul uses a first-person present verb to describe his opponents’ experience (Galatians 2:18).

Romans 7:25 is a verse that transitions back to the present day reality as Paul being a Christian. He is thankful that he now has victory in Jesus Christ His Lord who can deliver him from his body of death (Which was a problem before). Otherwise why is Paul thanking Jesus?

Paul asks the question in verse 24.

Who shall deliver me from this body of death?

I like how the Good News Translation answers this question. It says,

"Thanks be to God, who does this through our Lord Jesus Christ! This, then, is my condition: on my own I can serve God's law only with my mind, while my human nature serves the law of sin." (Romans 7:25 GNT).

The NTE says,

"...So then, left to my own self I am enslaved to God’s law with my mind, but to sin’s law with my human flesh." (Romans 7:25 NTE).

But Romans 13:14 says,
"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof."

However, if you are still in doubt, there are 8 reasons in Scripture that show us that Paul is indeed talking as a Pharisee (recounting his past experience) and he is not talking in the present tense as a Christian in Romans 7:14-24.

#1. In Romans 7:6, Paul says we should serve in newness of the spirit and not the oldness of the letter (Which is the Old Law and not the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed). We are told to SERVE. How do we serve? Do we just do our own thing? No. We follow God's commands in the New Testament. This talk of the Old Law is the context of verses 14-24.

#2. We are dead to the Law by the body of Jesus Christ (Romans 7:4). Would this be the Old Law or ALL law? 1 John 3:23 is a commandment that says we are to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. This is a New Covenant Law. So obviously we are not dead to this Law or Command. The Scriptures also say, "but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent." (Acts 17:30). Are we dead to this Law? Surely not. Jesus said "repent or perish." (Luke 13:3). Peter told Simon to repent (by way of prayer to God) of his wickedness of trying to pay for the gifts of the Holy Spirit so that he may be forgiven (Acts 8:22). Sin is merely transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). All this lets us know that men of God can break God's laws and they can be separated from GOD because of it. So surely some kind of Law of God is still in effect and has dire consequences for any person's soul who commits them. For Jesus said that if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). If Jesus was talking to unbelievers, this would not make any sense. They would first need to accept Christ. So the only logical conclusion is that Jesus is talking to believers in Matthew 6:15. You do not forgive (i.e. you sin or break this law of God) and you will not be forgiven or saved. 1 John 3:15 says if you hate your brother you are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Again, you hate your brother (which can be a one time act) and you do not have eternal life. It's that simple. Also, Paul condemns circumcision several times. Galatians 5:2 is the biggest verse that condemns circumcision salvationism. Circumcision is an Old Covenant Law and it is not a New Covenant Law. Paul uses the word "law" when he speaks against circumcision. So we have to conclude that Paul is saying we are dead to the Old Covenant Law and not all Law. So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#3. Paul says, "For without the law sin was dead." (Romans 7:8). He also says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." (Romans 7:9). This type of saying is nonsensical from a present tense reading as an adult Christian. The only way it sort of works is if Paul is referring to himself as a baby who had no knowledge of God's laws yet. But there are two problem with even that interpretation. One, this view does not seem as consistent with the phrase, "For without the law sin was dead" because even though Paul as a baby did not have any knowledge of the Law yet, the rest of the adult world would have the Law and sin would still be alive to them. Second, Paul says, "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me." (Romans 7:10-11). Okay, so if Paul grew up and became aware of the Law one day, how could the commandment be ordained to life at this point in his life? The commandment was ordained for life back in the time of the Law of Moses. Also, Paul found that "the commandment" was death unto him and that it slew him. There are no death penalties attached to the commands given to us under the New Testament. Death penalties are only associated with the Laws given to us in the Old Covenant. This is how the Law slew him. For breaking the Old Law could be a loss of his own physical life. So this is talking about the Old Law (and not all Law). So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#4. Paul says, "But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). Okay. Let's break this down. Paul says, "But sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR SIN, works death in me." (Romans 7:13). Now, how can sin make it appear like it may not be sin? Well, if Jesus was raised and Saul (Paul) was still a Pharisee striving to obey the Old Law when the New Covenant Law was still in effect, the sin that Saul (Paul) was struggling with as a pharisee during that time would not really technically be sin in every case. For if Paul disobeyed certain Old Covenant laws while the New Covenant and it's laws were in effect, then Saul (Paul) is not really breaking any real commandments from God in every case. Hence, why Paul said, "...sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR (as) SIN." (Romans 7:13). The beginning of verse 13 is a foreshadow of what is to come in verses 14-24. Paul is stepping out for a brief moment as speaking as an Israelite living throughout history to speak of his condition as a Pharisee when he says, "...sin, that it might appear sin." In the second half of verse 13, Paul says, that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). This is saying that when God provided the written Law of Moses to his people, there would be a double accountability to keeping God's laws because they are written for all to see now. So an Old Testament saint would feel exceedingly sinful or guilty for breaking God's law back in the Old Testament times because he had in his possession a written down visual law clearly telling him what is right and wrong. So again, Paul is referring to the Old Law here and not all law. This talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#5. Paul says in Romans 7:14 that he is carnal and is sold under sin; And yet in Romans 8:2, Pauls says he is free from sin. So unless Paul is contradicting himself, he is talking from two different perspectives.

#6. In Romans 7:25, Paul asks the question: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Asking this kind of question as a Christian does not seem consistent with Paul's following statement if he is already delivered thru Jesus Christ as a Christian. If a believer is delivered by Jesus, and is thankful of that fact, there would be no cry to ask any question that says, "Who shall deliver me from this body of death?"

#7. Here is the final nail in the coffin for this argument. Romans 8:3-4 says,
3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4).

So which Law did God send His Son for so as to condemn sin in the flesh?
It was the Old Covenant Law.
For when Jesus died on the cross, the temple veil was ripped from top to bottom letting us know that the Old Testament laws were no longer valid because the Old Laws on the animal sacrifices and the priesthood were no longer acceptable.
Jesus Christ was now our Passover Lamb.
Jesus Christ was soon be our Heavenly High Priest (after He ascended to His father after His resurrection 3 days later) so He can be our mediator between God the Father and man.

Romans 8:4 says, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

This is saying that the righteous part or aspect of the Old Law can be fulfilled in us.

Paul says elsewhere,
8 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

(Romans 13:8-10).

So loving your neighbor is the righteousness of the Old Law!
We fulfill this law by walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh (i.e. sin).

So we see a consistent theme here. The word "law" used in general (with no actual description attached to it) is in reference to the Old Law in Romans 7 and Romans 8. This helps us to understand that Paul is telling us his past experience or life as a Pharisee in struggling to keep the Old Law unsuccessfully because he did not have Jesus Christ yet (in verses 14-24).

#8. In addition, in Romans 8:2, we see the mention of how there are TWO laws. We also learn from this verse that keeping one of these Laws helps us to be set FREE from the other one.

In Romans 8:2, we see:

Law #1. - Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.
This is a New Covenant Law that we are still under. What is this Law?
It is fulfilling the righteousness of the Law (i.e. to love your neighbor - Romans 13:8-10) by walking after the Spirit (See Romans 8:3-4).

Law #2. Sin and Death.
This is in reference to the Old Covenant Law as a whole (i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commands within the Torah). It is called the Law of Sin and Death because you could physically be put to death by not obeying this Law.
​

What is the relationship of these two laws in Romans 8:2?

Keeping the New Law helps us to be free of the Old Law.
For there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:1).
​

You need to Go back and study the original language of those texts you gave and seek the Spirit of God for clarity.

Please take no offense, but I really do not think people should study Biblical Greek until they properly know their own Bible in English thru prayer and by comparing Scripture with Scripture. Why? Well, if a person knows how to defend the Bible in English, they would just simply give me the context and cross references to prove their point (Instead of hiding behind a language they really do not know). I also believe Christians should not put forth Biblical Greek definitions unless they know how to speak and write modern day Greek within the country of Greece (or within a Greek speaking group or village), too. For one, the English does not conflict with the Greek. For the KJV was translated from the Hebrew (OT) and the Greek (NT). Sometimes a normal conversation (in our own language) is impossible here with God's Word because folks act like they know Greek (When they have not grown up speaking or writing such a language). My encouragement to all Christians is stick to a language that we can all understand (And whereby it is not so easy to change the meaning of certain words whereby other people would not know). For in my opinion, if a person cannot translate a page in English into the Greek language (with the people who live in Greece agreeing with that person's translation), they are not truly qualified to offer any opinion in what the Greek says in the Bible. In other words, they are merely guessing. An interlinear with a concordance gives us multiple definitions. These interlinears are not by any means the Word of God itself. They are men's opinions on what these words mean. James Strong and his buddies were not divinely inspired to write the work that they did. Furthermore, a Christian also has to select and choose which definition THEY think is best, as well. How do they know they are making the right selection? Do they truly know how to write and speak Greek? This is why I encourage every believer to learn to speak and write among the Greek culture before putting forth any knowledge of what they think that language actually says in our Bibles.

Granted, Biblical Greek and Modern Greek are not exactly identical, but there are many similarities that will help Christian to understand what the Bible is saying in the Greek plainly (if that is truly a believer's pursuit).

Looking at Modern Translations and comparing it with the KJV (Which I believe is our final Word of authority) is the best alternative course of action in my opinion.

Sanctification is a process, but it is a continual process as far as people are concerned. Every day we grow closer to Christ and we learn to trust him and believe him. Plane and simple.

Yes, Sanctificaiton is a process. I do not disagree with that. Sinless Perfection is the goal of the believer's Sanctification in this life. Some believer's acheive this goal at different points in their life. Some do so rather quickly and others it takes a long time. Not having reached a state of Sinless Perfection does not mean one is not saved. But to deny Sinless Perfection is to deny God's plan of Sanctification for your life and that is never a good thing.

If only people were honest, they would declare themselves sinful and not worthy of Grace. Even the most devoted children of God sin every single day. To complain is a sin. To not say yes when you can say yes is a sin. Anything that is done outside of faith is sin. If a person knows to do a good deed and does not that deed, it is sin. Sin covers a broad stroke, not just the ones we can see with our human eyes. Pride itself....Yeah, look at me, look what I did...Sin. All Glory goes to God. Whatever you do, in word or deed, do unto the glory of God. Have you done this? If not, it is sin. Do you always say thank you and show gratitude to God for the good and the bad in your life? if not, it is sin. (I say you in general, not you specifically)

God bless.

This is a position of defeat and it is not one of having victory in Christ. Yes, God can honestly forgive us if we confess our sins and cry out for His mercy to forgive us, and God can be very patient with us in our struggle with falling into sin on occasion, but sin does not control the Christian's life. Sin was a part of their old life. When I say sin, I am talking about serious sins like lying, lusting, hating, not forgiving, etc. To continue in these sins means one has not met the transforming power of God yet. For Jesus set me free from these sins when I repented of them. Yes, at times I could fall on occasion, but God's grace empowered me to give up many of my sinful ways (that were once normal to me). For sin should be a stranger to a Christian and it should not be common place within a believer's life. Granted, not all sin is the same. For there are sins unto death and sins not unto death (1 John 5:16-18). Hence, which then brings up the topic of Sinless Perfectionism.


Source Used For One Short Paragraph Within This Post:
Paul is not Talking about Himself: Why I take the "pre-Christian" Reading of Romans 7:14-25

 

[Xavier Cane]

Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

this is the idea of the modern church. Self sanctification, works, rules and regulations. There is no victory in that life, and you know it. You can hide behind your computer screen, but you cannot hide the pain you feel because of your failures before God. God is perfect. Not people. Only when we get to heaven.

I'm done with this conversation because I can sense this becoming unproductive. But I pray that God will grant not only you but the entire church victory through the Blood of Christ. Victory available to all. But Victory only Comes through Christ and Him Crucified.

For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

People cannot tell me if I am nor not saved. They do not have the authority to do such. Only God. And I am sure that He lives inside of me and moves me forward daily, even when I sin, he does not leave me. If he did, then that means salvation is by works, and not by grace, and the entire bible is of no use because god is a liar. But God is not a liar. Let God be true, and every man a liar. If it is not Christ and Him Crucified, then it is nothing God will accept. You cannot do any righteousness on your own, it is all done by faith in His work. Then the Holy Spirit does the work. He alone can make us what we ought to be.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death

I'm Out. God bless yall, it was fun, I hope you all learn something. May the truth of these words help you. Where light is rejected, eventually, light is withdrawn. Praise God for the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, by whom I am crucified unto the world, and the world is crucified unto me.

 

[Xavier Cane]

No. The Bible will still be true regardless if you accept it or not.



And what was the lesson in that?
Eve bought into the lie that she could sin and still be saved.
For the devil told Eve, "yea, ye shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4).
Yet, she did die. She died spiritually.
And the devil is still selling this lie with people today.



Not true. 1 Peter 4:1-2 says that you can cease from sin in this life here. For we are told to live the rest of our time here not to the lusts of the flesh but to the will of God.



If everyone's thinking was foolish, would that not mean that no person can instruct one another in God's ways?



As for Romans 7:

Peter says this about Paul's writings,
"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:16).

In Romans 7:1-6 is Paul telling Messianic Christians (i.e. those brethren who know Old Testament Law - Romans 7:1) that the Old Law is dead and that they should serve in newness of Spirit (i.e. the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed) and not in oldness of the letter (i.e. the Torah, etc.). This makes sense because Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. This lines up with the temple veil being torn from top to bottom when Christ died (Which started the New Covenant officially). The Old Testament Laws on animal sacrifices was no longer in effect anymore and Jesus Christ was now our passover Lamb or perfect sacrifice. Hence, why Romans 7:2 says, "if the husband [i.e. Jesus] be dead, she [i.e. the body of believers] is loosed from the law [i.e. the Old Law] of her husband."

In Romans 7:7-13, Paul is recounting Israelite history and speaking as a Jew throughout time with the coming in of the Law of Moses and what that was like.

In Romans 7:14-24, Paul is recounting his experience as a Pharisee before he became a Christian. Paul (Saul) is describing his experience of what it is like to struggle in keeping the Old Covenant Law that did not include Jesus Christ.

It is true that the use of first-person present verbs in the passage (“I am” “I practice” “I want” “I hate” “I do”) sounds like Paul is talking about his present experience. But Paul sometimes uses “I” in a rhetorical sense to describe generic experience rather than his own present experience (1 Corinthians 10:30; 1 Corinthians 13:2-3, 1 Corinthians 13:11). In at least one other place, Paul uses a first-person present verb to describe his opponents’ experience (Galatians 2:18).

Romans 7:25 is a verse that transitions back to the present day reality as Paul being a Christian. He is thankful that he now has victory in Jesus Christ His Lord who can deliver him from his body of death (Which was a problem before). Otherwise why is Paul thanking Jesus?

Paul asks the question in verse 24.

Who shall deliver me from this body of death?

I like how the Good News Translation answers this question. It says,

"Thanks be to God, who does this through our Lord Jesus Christ! This, then, is my condition: on my own I can serve God's law only with my mind, while my human nature serves the law of sin." (Romans 7:25 GNT).

The NTE says,

"...So then, left to my own self I am enslaved to God’s law with my mind, but to sin’s law with my human flesh." (Romans 7:25 NTE).

But Romans 13:14 says,
"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof."

However, if you are still in doubt, there are 8 reasons in Scripture that show us that Paul is indeed talking as a Pharisee (recounting his past experience) and he is not talking in the present tense as a Christian in Romans 7:14-24.

#1. In Romans 7:6, Paul says we should serve in newness of the spirit and not the oldness of the letter (Which is the Old Law and not the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed). We are told to SERVE. How do we serve? Do we just do our own thing? No. We follow God's commands in the New Testament. This talk of the Old Law is the context of verses 14-24.

#2. We are dead to the Law by the body of Jesus Christ (Romans 7:4). Would this be the Old Law or ALL law? 1 John 3:23 is a commandment that says we are to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. This is a New Covenant Law. So obviously we are not dead to this Law or Command. The Scriptures also say, "but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent." (Acts 17:30). Are we dead to this Law? Surely not. Jesus said "repent or perish." (Luke 13:3). Peter told Simon to repent (by way of prayer to God) of his wickedness of trying to pay for the gifts of the Holy Spirit so that he may be forgiven (Acts 8:22). Sin is merely transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). All this lets us know that men of God can break God's laws and they can be separated from GOD because of it. So surely some kind of Law of God is still in effect and has dire consequences for any person's soul who commits them. For Jesus said that if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). If Jesus was talking to unbelievers, this would not make any sense. They would first need to accept Christ. So the only logical conclusion is that Jesus is talking to believers in Matthew 6:15. You do not forgive (i.e. you sin or break this law of God) and you will not be forgiven or saved. 1 John 3:15 says if you hate your brother you are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Again, you hate your brother (which can be a one time act) and you do not have eternal life. It's that simple. Also, Paul condemns circumcision several times. Galatians 5:2 is the biggest verse that condemns circumcision salvationism. Circumcision is an Old Covenant Law and it is not a New Covenant Law. Paul uses the word "law" when he speaks against circumcision. So we have to conclude that Paul is saying we are dead to the Old Covenant Law and not all Law. So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#3. Paul says, "For without the law sin was dead." (Romans 7:8). He also says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." (Romans 7:9). This type of saying is nonsensical from a present tense reading as an adult Christian. The only way it sort of works is if Paul is referring to himself as a baby who had no knowledge of God's laws yet. But there are two problem with even that interpretation. One, this view does not seem as consistent with the phrase, "For without the law sin was dead" because even though Paul as a baby did not have any knowledge of the Law yet, the rest of the adult world would have the Law and sin would still be alive to them. Second, Paul says, "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me." (Romans 7:10-11). Okay, so if Paul grew up and became aware of the Law one day, how could the commandment be ordained to life at this point in his life? The commandment was ordained for life back in the time of the Law of Moses. Also, Paul found that "the commandment" was death unto him and that it slew him. There are no death penalties attached to the commands given to us under the New Testament. Death penalties are only associated with the Laws given to us in the Old Covenant. This is how the Law slew him. For breaking the Old Law could be a loss of his own physical life. So this is talking about the Old Law (and not all Law). So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#4. Paul says, "But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). Okay. Let's break this down. Paul says, "But sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR SIN, works death in me." (Romans 7:13). Now, how can sin make it appear like it may not be sin? Well, if Jesus was raised and Saul (Paul) was still a Pharisee striving to obey the Old Law when the New Covenant Law was still in effect, the sin that Saul (Paul) was struggling with as a pharisee during that time would not really technically be sin in every case. For if Paul disobeyed certain Old Covenant laws while the New Covenant and it's laws were in effect, then Saul (Paul) is not really breaking any real commandments from God in every case. Hence, why Paul said, "...sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR (as) SIN." (Romans 7:13). The beginning of verse 13 is a foreshadow of what is to come in verses 14-24. Paul is stepping out for a brief moment as speaking as an Israelite living throughout history to speak of his condition as a Pharisee when he says, "...sin, that it might appear sin." In the second half of verse 13, Paul says, that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). This is saying that when God provided the written Law of Moses to his people, there would be a double accountability to keeping God's laws because they are written for all to see now. So an Old Testament saint would feel exceedingly sinful or guilty for breaking God's law back in the Old Testament times because he had in his possession a written down visual law clearly telling him what is right and wrong. So again, Paul is referring to the Old Law here and not all law. This talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#5. Paul says in Romans 7:14 that he is carnal and is sold under sin; And yet in Romans 8:2, Pauls says he is free from sin. So unless Paul is contradicting himself, he is talking from two different perspectives.

#6. In Romans 7:25, Paul asks the question: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Asking this kind of question as a Christian does not seem consistent with Paul's following statement if he is already delivered thru Jesus Christ as a Christian. If a believer is delivered by Jesus, and is thankful of that fact, there would be no cry to ask any question that says, "Who shall deliver me from this body of death?"

#7. Here is the final nail in the coffin for this argument. Romans 8:3-4 says,
3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4).

So which Law did God send His Son for so as to condemn sin in the flesh?
It was the Old Covenant Law.
For when Jesus died on the cross, the temple veil was ripped from top to bottom letting us know that the Old Testament laws were no longer valid because the Old Laws on the animal sacrifices and the priesthood were no longer acceptable.
Jesus Christ was now our Passover Lamb.
Jesus Christ was soon be our Heavenly High Priest (after He ascended to His father after His resurrection 3 days later) so He can be our mediator between God the Father and man.

Romans 8:4 says, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

This is saying that the righteous part or aspect of the Old Law can be fulfilled in us.

Paul says elsewhere,
8 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

(Romans 13:8-10).

So loving your neighbor is the righteousness of the Old Law!
We fulfill this law by walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh (i.e. sin).

So we see a consistent theme here. The word "law" used in general (with no actual description attached to it) is in reference to the Old Law in Romans 7 and Romans 8. This helps us to understand that Paul is telling us his past experience or life as a Pharisee in struggling to keep the Old Law unsuccessfully because he did not have Jesus Christ yet (in verses 14-24).

#8. In addition, in Romans 8:2, we see the mention of how there are TWO laws. We also learn from this verse that keeping one of these Laws helps us to be set FREE from the other one.

In Romans 8:2, we see:

Law #1. - Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.
This is a New Covenant Law that we are still under. What is this Law?
It is fulfilling the righteousness of the Law (i.e. to love your neighbor - Romans 13:8-10) by walking after the Spirit (See Romans 8:3-4).

Law #2. Sin and Death.
This is in reference to the Old Covenant Law as a whole (i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commands within the Torah). It is called the Law of Sin and Death because you could physically be put to death by not obeying this Law.​

What is the relationship of these two laws in Romans 8:2?

Keeping the New Law helps us to be free of the Old Law.
For there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:1).​

Please take no offense, but I really do not think people should study Biblical Greek until they properly know their own Bible in English thru prayer and by comparing Scripture with Scripture. Why? Well, if a person knows how to defend the Bible in English, they would just simply give me the context and cross references to prove their point (Instead of hiding behind a language they really do not know). I also believe Christians should not put forth Biblical Greek definitions unless they know how to speak and write modern day Greek within the country of Greece (or within a Greek speaking group or village), too. For one, the English does not conflict with the Greek. For the KJV was translated from the Hebrew (OT) and the Greek (NT). Sometimes a normal conversation (in our own language) is impossible here with God's Word because folks act like they know Greek (When they have not grown up speaking or writing such a language). My encouragement to all Christians is stick to a language that we can all understand (And whereby it is not so easy to change the meaning of certain words whereby other people would not know). For in my opinion, if a person cannot translate a page in English into the Greek language (with the people who live in Greece agreeing with that person's translation), they are not truly qualified to offer any opinion in what the Greek says in the Bible. In other words, they are merely guessing. An interlinear with a concordance gives us multiple definitions. These interlinears are not by any means the Word of God itself. They are men's opinions on what these words mean. James Strong and his buddies were not divinely inspired to write the work that they did. Furthermore, a Christian also has to select and choose which definition THEY think is best, as well. How do they know they are making the right selection? Do they truly know how to write and speak Greek? This is why I encourage every believer to learn to speak and write among the Greek culture before putting forth any knowledge of what they think that language actually says in our Bibles.

Granted, Biblical Greek and Modern Greek are not exactly identical, but there are many similarities that will help Christian to understand what the Bible is saying in the Greek plainly (if that is truly a believer's pursuit).

Looking at Modern Translations and comparing it with the KJV (Which I believe is our final Word of authority) is the best alternative course of action in my opinion.



Yes, Sanctificaiton is a process. I do not disagree with that. Sinless Perfection is the goal of the believer's Sanctification in this life. Some believer's acheive this goal at different points in their life. Some do so rather quickly and others it takes a long time. Not having reached a state of Sinless Perfection does not mean one is not saved. But to deny Sinless Perfection is to deny God's plan of Sanctification for your life and that is never a good thing.



This is a position of defeat and it is not one of having victory in Christ. Yes, God can honestly forgive us if we confess our sins and cry out for His mercy to forgive us, and God can be very patient with us in our struggle with falling into sin on occasion, but sin does not control the Christian's life. Sin was a part of their old life. When I say sin, I am talking about serious sins like lying, lusting, hating, not forgiving, etc. To continue in these sins means one has not met the transforming power of God yet. For Jesus set me free from these sins when I repented of them. Yes, at times I could fall on occasion, but God's grace empowered me to give up many of my sinful ways (that were once normal to me). For sin should be a stranger to a Christian and it should not be common place within a believer's life. Granted, not all sin is the same. For there are sins unto death and sins not unto death (1 John 5:16-18). Hence, which then brings up the topic of Sinless Perfectionism.


Source Used For One Short Paragraph Within This Post:
Paul is not Talking about Himself: Why I take the "pre-Christian" Reading of Romans 7:14-25

 

[Xavier Cane]

I think you all misunderstand my point. I am not saying that sin should control a person's life. But the fact is that many who come to christ are not instantly made perfect and everything goes away. No, not at all. This forum is full of self-righteousness, which I hate. And God hates it too. God hates all sin. But the sad fact is that we still have a sin nature. No it should not rule within our lives. But its very presence is proof that we all sin. An evil desire is a sin, even if for a moment. I'm saying that a person practices such sinful desires. That's not what I am saying. I am saying that no person on the earth can claim sinless perfect at any time in their life. point blank. None. To do so is to call yourself a lair.


If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

When a woman gets raped. A woman who is saved. It may be hard for her to forgive her rapist. Especially if she has to look at the rapist often. I'm sure she will have a hard time forgiving that person who raped her. That unforgiveness is a sin. Yet, I trust that God understands such a hurting heart, and will help that person learn to forgive....Yet, she has not forgiven him. She asked God for help, but yet, she cannot find it in herself to forgive him. Sounds like a continual sin to me. But according to most of the untruth spoken by many on this post, this poor lady soul would be lost if she dropped dead. Why? because she did not forgive the man who raped her, even though she tried with everything she had. Unforgiveness is sin, a sin many practice daily. Not because they want to, but because they have not learned how to...god understand this.. Which is why we are all saved by grace and grace alone. Grace makes the change in our hearts and life. Period. This is done through the Holy Spirit, made possible only....only..only...not by good works, but only by the Sacrifice of Christ. The Spirit will work no other way.

 

[Xavier Cane]

Yes, Sanctificaiton is a process. I do not disagree with that. Sinless Perfection is the goal of the believer's Sanctification in this life. Some believer's acheive this goal at different points in their life. Some do so rather quickly and others it takes a long time. Not having reached a state of Sinless Perfection does not mean one is not saved. But to deny Sinless Perfection is to deny God's plan of Sanctification for your life and that is never a good thing.

Nope, no one ever reaches the level of sinless perfection. none. The bible does not teach that in any place. To teach such is to take Gods word completely out of context.

 

[Xavier Cane]

Sinless perfection only happens when we get to heaven. If people could be sinless and perfect, what was the purpose of the Cross of Christ? If we could truly learn how to live a perfect life, why did Christ have to die? That is Pauls argument, and it is mine as well. The holy Spirit must make us Holy. We cannot make ourselves Holy. So I ask you the question paul asked the Galatians...Have you begun in the spirit and are now made perfect by the flesh? Come one....Thats silly. Then paul said..not as though I have already attained, but I press toward the mark...He never attained his mark my friend...but He did finish the work that God had for him. Listen....To be sinless in this life means that the sin nature is totally and completely gone out of the body. That does not happen until the last trump.

I will say that again, and it is the point of it all...We can't be sinlessly perfect because our bodies are tainted with something called the Sin Nature. At salvation, this sin nature was not removed, but it's power was forever broke....Its power was broken. The child of God gives this sin nature power as we try to live for God by the means of the flesh. Only the Spirit of God can control the Sin nature, and he will as long as we maintain our faith and consider ourselves CRUCIFIED WITH CHRIST- Praise God. But alive unto God.

The sin nature is the desire to sin. It is that thing inside of us that turns to do what we see, and have what we want...But again, The sin nature is not to rule in our lives. Sadly, this is the case for most Christians, even the most devout. Because they do not know Gods way of justification and sanctification, wich is the Cross. Anything else, is spiritual adultery. It says that What Jesus did is not enough, so now I have to do something else. This is a slap in the face of God.

1)Jesus Christ is the Source of all blessing from God
2)The Cross of Christ is the means by which all blessing flow
3)The Cross of Christ must ever be the object of our faith (not the wooden beam, but the price he there paid
4)That being done, the Holy Spirit will begin to work in our lives, and make us what we ought to be, which only He can.

Here is another illustration for Gods way of living and mans way of living.

God's way
1) Source- Jesus Christ (We look to Christ for all things)
2)Object of faith - The Cross of Christ (not the wooden beam, but what he accomplished)
3)Power source - Holy Spirit (The Spirit only works within the confines of the Cross Romans 8:2)
4) Results - Victory

Man's way
1)Source - self
2)object of faith - works (prayer, fasting, bible study. although not wrong, they do not set you free from sin, to think so, misplaces Christ as the one who can set you free)
3) Power source - will power (Though the will is important, it is no match for the sin nature)
4) result - failure (God will not help, because this is spiritual adultery, trying to replace Gods way with your own way).

You see God only has one way to live for him, and that is through faith. Faith produces the proper works, but works can never produce faith, but always self-righteousness. I will say that again. Pride is always the results of trying to earn salvation. Proper works for the Lord will always always always be the result of proper faith, which results in the humbling of a person. Because the Cross declares that there is absolutely nothing that I can offer God for my salvation. This strikes man's pride. What do you mean that God won't accept me? Nope, not outside of Christ. No you cannot earn grace, nor do you deserve it, or ever will. It is a gift.

I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed........

But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness.

For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

God bless you Brother. and whoever may read this. May it set you free from religion. Christianity is a relationship, and not at all religion. Cain was religious, and he slew his brother. Able had a relationship and caused jealousy in the religious man. Amen, Amen, and Amen. Let God be true and every man a lie. I would rather trust God and His leading rather than man and his taught interpretation of the bible. When you are set free by the Cross, you can see the false teaching so clearly and you can see their destruction.

Christ and Him Crucified. This is the only way of salvation, and the only way to live for God.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Pride is built when men Deny the grace of God

Paul says he that speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and they know nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

James says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble (James 4:6).

So being proud is talking against the words of Jesus and talking against Godliness.

Jude 1:4 says there are those who turn God's grace into a license for immorality. This would obviously be the grace doctrine that seeks to think of works as bad in relation to salvation because it ignores morality in favor of grace. But the true grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and Godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12).

and think that they can somhow sanctify themselves by their good works.

Sanctify:

John 17:17
"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."

Ephesians 5:25-27
25 "...even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."

"Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you." (John 15:3).

"Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit...". (1 Peter 1:22).

"Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word."
(Psalms 119:9)

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

“But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.” (1 John 2:5).​

Sanctify & Sanctified:

John 17:19
"And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth."

1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God." (1 Peter 4:1-2).

“He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.” (1 John 2:6).

"For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps." (1 Peter 2:21).​

Sanctification:

1 Thessalonians 4:3
"For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:"

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Corinthians 7:1).

"For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness." (1 Thessalonians 4:7).

"So all people who have this confidence in Christ keep themselves pure, as Christ is pure." (1 John 3:3 GW).

"Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also." Matthew 23:26).

"A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh." (Luke 6:45).

"Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God." (Matthew 5:8).
​

Sanctification & Sanctified:

1 Thessalonians 4:4
"That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;"

2 Timothy 2:21
If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

7 "But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
8 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;
9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;
10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body." (2 Corinthians 4:7-10).

16 "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."
(1 Corinthians 3:16-17).​

In John 17:17, Jesus essentially says to the Father,
""Make them holy" (i.e. Sanctify) with your truth, for your Word is truth."

Jesus is saying to the Father that His Word (i.e. God's Word) can make His people holy in conduct (See 2 Timothy 3:16-17).

Ephesians 5:25-27 is saying Christ gave Himself for the church that He might cleanse it or "Make it holy" by the washing of the Water of the Word (i.e. Scripture). Jesus does this so as to present to Himself a church that is holy and without spot, and blemish; This is similiar to what Titus says. For Titus 2:14 says, "Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works."

Jesus said to the Pharisees,

"He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God" (John 8:47).

So hearing God's Word or not determines if one is even of God.

Jesus also says,

"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." (John 12:48).

Jesus says he that receives not his words will be judged by the very words that He had spoken on the last day (Judgment). For example: If a person rejects Matthew 6:15, or Matthew 5:28-30, or Matthew 5:22, then those very words will judge (condemn) that person on the last day.

In addition, John says,

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4).

"He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." (1 John 5:12).

"But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him." (1 John 2:5).

In other words, we cannot have life (eternal life) without Jesus, and the way we can have an assurance in knowing if we truly do know Him is if we find that we are keeping His Word or Commandments.

To put it to you another way, Sanctification involving God's Word (Scripture) and or His commands is an essential step or stage in the salvation process.

James says,
21 "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves."
(James 1:21-22).

Jesus says,
"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

Just like Paul said...Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

This is talking about the Old Law and not all Law. This is obvious if you were to pay attention to the topic of conversation in Galatians 2. Paul mentions the word "circumcision" 5 times and the word "circumcised" 1 time. Circumcision was a part of the Old Laws (in the Old Testament) and not the New Laws that come from Jesus and His followers (In the New Testament). In addition, Galatians 3 says,

"And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect." (Galatians 3:17).​

Did you catch that?
It says the "Law" which came 430 years after cannot disannul and make the promise of no effect. This is clearly the Law of Moses and not all Law being talked about. So Paul is talking about the Old Law and not all Law or the New Law.

The Old Covenant Law was no more when Jesus died upon the cross because the temple veil was torn from top to bottom in the temple letting us know the laws on animal sacrifices were no longer in effect anymore because Jesus is our perfect sacrifice (or Lamb).

The scripture does not lie.

This is true, but one's interpretation on what they think the Scripture says can be wrong.

Though you may lack understanding, the word of God is true, let every man be a lie.

Surely if all men were liars or if all men were in sin, then how could they teach the truth?
Surely sin would corrupt their minds and their thoughts, no?

Anyways, if you believe Romans 3 applies to even the faithful believer (if there is such a thing in your belief) then obviously Romans 3:11 would apply, no?
No believer could have any knowledge of the things of God and or seek after God.

But we know that believers can have the knowledge of the things of God (in knowing all things) (See 1 John 2:20).

Whatsoever is without faith is sin. Romans 14:23

Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).

Jesus said to the Pharisees,
"He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God." (John 8:47).

This was in context to their sin.

"I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you." (John 8:37).

For sin is transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4).


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Nope, no one ever reaches the level of sinless perfection. none. The bible does not teach that in any place. To teach such is to take Gods word completely out of context.

Either address the verses on the list or move on.
For just saying that you are right does not really mean anything.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Sinless perfection only happens when we get to heaven. If people could be sinless and perfect, what was the purpose of the Cross of Christ? If we could truly learn how to live a perfect life, why did Christ have to die? That is Pauls argument, and it is mine as well. The holy Spirit must make us Holy. We cannot make ourselves Holy. So I ask you the question paul asked the Galatians...Have you begun in the spirit and are now made perfect by the flesh? Come one....Thats silly. Then paul said..not as though I have already attained, but I press toward the mark...He never attained his mark my friend...but He did finish the work that God had for him. Listen....To be sinless in this life means that the sin nature is totally and completely gone out of the body. That does not happen until the last trump.

I will say that again, and it is the point of it all...We can't be sinlessly perfect because our bodies are tainted with something called the Sin Nature. At salvation, this sin nature was not removed, but it's power was forever broke....Its power was broken. The child of God gives this sin nature power as we try to live for God by the means of the flesh. Only the Spirit of God can control the Sin nature, and he will as long as we maintain our faith and consider ourselves CRUCIFIED WITH CHRIST- Praise God. But alive unto God.

The sin nature is the desire to sin. It is that thing inside of us that turns to do what we see, and have what we want...But again, The sin nature is not to rule in our lives. Sadly, this is the case for most Christians, even the most devout. Because they do not know Gods way of justification and sanctification, wich is the Cross. Anything else, is spiritual adultery. It says that What Jesus did is not enough, so now I have to do something else. This is a slap in the face of God.

1)Jesus Christ is the Source of all blessing from God
2)The Cross of Christ is the means by which all blessing flow
3)The Cross of Christ must ever be the object of our faith (not the wooden beam, but the price he there paid
4)That being done, the Holy Spirit will begin to work in our lives, and make us what we ought to be, which only He can.

Here is another illustration for Gods way of living and mans way of living.

God's way
1) Source- Jesus Christ (We look to Christ for all things)
2)Object of faith - The Cross of Christ (not the wooden beam, but what he accomplished)
3)Power source - Holy Spirit (The Spirit only works within the confines of the Cross Romans 8:2)
4) Results - Victory

Man's way
1)Source - self
2)object of faith - works (prayer, fasting, bible study. although not wrong, they do not set you free from sin, to think so, misplaces Christ as the one who can set you free)
3) Power source - will power (Though the will is important, it is no match for the sin nature)
4) result - failure (God will not help, because this is spiritual adultery, trying to replace Gods way with your own way).

You see God only has one way to live for him, and that is through faith. Faith produces the proper works, but works can never produce faith, but always self-righteousness. I will say that again. Pride is always the results of trying to earn salvation. Proper works for the Lord will always always always be the result of proper faith, which results in the humbling of a person. Because the Cross declares that there is absolutely nothing that I can offer God for my salvation. This strikes man's pride. What do you mean that God won't accept me? Nope, not outside of Christ. No you cannot earn grace, nor do you deserve it, or ever will. It is a gift.

I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed........

But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness.

For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

God bless you Brother. and whoever may read this. May it set you free from religion. Christianity is a relationship, and not at all religion. Cain was religious, and he slew his brother. Able had a relationship and caused jealousy in the religious man. Amen, Amen, and Amen. Let God be true and every man a lie. I would rather trust God and His leading rather than man and his taught interpretation of the bible. When you are set free by the Cross, you can see the false teaching so clearly and you can see their destruction.

Christ and Him Crucified. This is the only way of salvation, and the only way to live for God.

Not true!

1 "Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God." (1 Peter 4:1-2).


....

 

[Ron Gurley]

Please: Learn the TRUE Greek meaning of "perfect / perfected"

Matthew 5:48 (NASB)...Jesus: Sermon on the Mount
Therefore you are to be perfect,
as your heavenly Father is perfect.

perfect...Greek 5046...teleios...(= NOT: without FAULT)
I.brought to its end, finished
II.wanting nothing necessary to completeness (mature)
III....
IV.that which is perfect
A.consummate human integrity and virtue
B.of men
i.full grown, adult, of full age, MATURE

 

[Ron Gurley]

NO ONE has ever: "became perfected to never sin again."

All believers continue to sin!! 1 John 1 !!