Reparative theropy

[MrPirate]

It's a known fact that human sexuality changes over time regardless of one's religious persuasion. In my lifetime I've seen straights turn gay and gays turn straight.

Claiming something is a fact implies actual evidence to back it up.
And…surprise surprise. You provided no evidence for this “fact”

Look at the people in the public eye that have crossed over -- Elton John from married to totally gay, David Bowie from bisexual to married, Anne Heche from gay to married.

you are misrepresenting people (what a shock there)

gee…bisexual people getting married. Who would have thought?

To rationalize all this away, one political wing defines sexuality in a such way that change isn't really possible. I call it "sexual predestination." It is based on the illogic of a posteriori rationalization where the facts must be forced to explain the "holy grail" theory of "sexual immutability" rather than theory explaining the facts.

Again this claim of “facts” yet no facts provided

This is how it works:

Let's say Anne Heche stays married for the rest of her life and she is no longer physically attracted to the same sex at all. Well then she's a bisexual according to the "predestinators." The fact that she even dabbled with gay sex at some time in her life makes her bi-sexual according to them. It's an irreversable "taint" that she's always stigmatized with by the gay-affirming crowd that says: once-gay always-gay.

No one, including Ms. Heche, is claiming she is or was gay or that these is now heterosexual for that matter.

Let's say Anne Heche divorces, renounces anything to do with hetero sex -- and says that she's really interested exclusively in the same sex. Well then she's really "gay" according to the predestinators, and she just found it out through self-discovery.

No one, including Ms. Heche, is claiming she is or was gay or that these is now heterosexual for that matter.

As you can see there is no science involved in this definition.

Particularly since the claims made by you are unfounded

If immutabilaty theory had a scientific basis, then it could be used to predict a person's final sex-orientation long beforehand.

Gee…like predicting David Bowie is bisexual ….

If there was science involved then a person's sexuality could be determined on an a priori basis. To further prove that "immutability" theory is logically flawed, nobody can tell if a person will be gay or straight when they are born.

Just like no one can tell if a person is right or left handed at the moment of birth….oh wait…you probably didn’t want any facts like that in this little discussion…sorry…carry on.

When human cloning becomes a reality, inevitably there will be two people identical in every respect except one will be gay and the other straight.

 

[MrPirate]

I would say give the therapy a try.

What is the alternative: eternal damnation.

I am not saying homosexuals cannot overcome their sinful orientation on their own or thorugh a solo quest with God, just that it could not hurt to get some help by professionals who know what they are talking about.

The professions who know what they are talking about reject reparative therapy

From the APA position statement:

In the past, defining homosexuality as an illness buttressed society's moral opprobrium of same-sex relationships. In the current social climate, claiming homosexuality is a mental disorder stems from efforts to discredit the growing social acceptance of homosexuality as a normal variant of human sexuality.

1. APA affirms its 1973 position that homosexuality per se is not a diagnosable mental disorder. Recent publicized efforts to repathologize homosexuality by claiming that it can be cured are often guided not by rigorous scientific or psychiatric research, but sometimes by religious and political forces opposed to full civil rights for gay men and lesbians. APA recommends that the APA respond quickly and appropriately as a scientific organization when claims that homosexuality is a curable illness are made by political or religious groups.
2. As a general principle, a therapist should not determine the goal of treatment either coercively or through subtle influence. Psychotherapeutic modalities to convert or "repair" homosexuality are based on developmental theories whose scientific validity is questionable. Furthermore, anecdotal reports of "cures" are counterbalanced by anecdotal claims of psychological harm. In the last four decades, "reparative" therapists have not produced any rigorous scientific research to substantiate their claims of cure. Until there is such research available, APA recommends that ethical practitioners refrain from attempts to change individuals' sexual orientation, keeping in mind the medical dictum to first, do no harm.
3. The "reparative" therapy literature uses theories that make it difficult to formulate scientific selection criteria for their treatment modality. This literature not only ignores the impact of social stigma in motivating efforts to cure homosexuality; it is a literature that actively stigmatizes homosexuality as well. "Reparative" therapy literature also tends to overstate the treatment's accomplishments while neglecting any potential risks to patients. APA encourages and supports research in the NIMH and the academic research community to further determines "reparative" therapy's risks versus its benefits.



In fact they say that it is people who are bigoted and homophobic that are the ones in need of help

 

[lmnop9876]

Claiming something is a fact implies actual evidence to back it up.
And…surprise surprise. You provided no evidence for this “fact”

actually what MercyBurst describes is a theory held by a number of respected psychologists working in this area. I'll try and get some references on that, but we discussed it under gender and sexuality issues in clinical psychology last semester.

 

[MrPirate]

actually what MercyBurst describes is a theory held by a number of respected psychologists working in this area. I'll try and get some references on that, but we discussed it under gender and sexuality issues in clinical psychology last semester.

Respected by who is the big question. Obviously not their peers

 

[BAFRIEND]

I wonder how the thousands of homosexuals who have been freed from this sinful orientation through this therapy would feel over all the doubt expressed on this thread.

 

[MrPirate]

I wonder how the thousands of homosexuals who have been freed from this sinful orientation through this therapy would feel over all the doubt expressed on this thread.

It is difficult to speculate on the feelings of imaginary people

 

[lmnop9876]

so do people who are 'freed' from their homosexual orientation become straight, or do they just become asexual beings?

 

[ChaliceThunder]

Hard to know a number of things:

* are there really "thousands" who have been "freed?"
* were they really gay in the first place?
* are they really "cured?

 

[lmnop9876]

Respected by who is the big question. Obviously not their peers

yes, by their peers. MercyBurst never said that reparative therapy works, he simply stated what is a widely held theory today, that sexuality, including sexual orientation, may be fluid over time for many people, and is not necessarily fixed at birth.

 

[BAFRIEND]

yes, by their peers. MercyBurst never said that reparative therapy works, he simply stated what is a widely held theory today, that sexuality, including sexual orientation, may be fluid over time for many people, and is not necessarily fixed at birth.

Yeah, and that fluidity implys an emotional link.

The implication there is that homosexuality is not a minority as some like to claim. Minoritys do not change the color of their skins (unless they are lizards) or who their parents are or their ethnicity.

 

[OllieFranz]

I would say give the therapy a try.

What is the alternative: eternal damnation.

I am not saying homosexuals cannot overcome their sinful orientation on their own or thorugh a solo quest with God, just that it could not hurt to get some help by professionals who know what they are talking about.

I might have been inclined to agree:

If there were any evidence that the "professionals" did know what they were talking about. Many of them have no professional acreditation at all. Of the rest, it is usually something like minimal drug counselling or pastoral training.

If there were not so much evidence that it can and does "hurt." The horror stories speak for themselves.

If it were voluntary. Many of these groups will allow parents to enroll their teenaged children simply because the child came to them and said that they think they might have some attractions. The teenager is a minor and has no say in the matter.

 

[MrPirate]

Yeah, and that fluidity implys an emotional link.

The implication there is that homosexuality is not a minority as some like to claim. Minoritys do not change the color of their skins (unless they are lizards) or who their parents are or their ethnicity.

I remember a skit done on Saturday Night Live by Eddie Murphy. He had a makeup artist transform him into a white man and there followed jokes … by the standard of what you are saying blacks are not a minority because they can pretend to be white.
.

 

[OllieFranz]

Light-skinned "high yellow" blacks often enjoyed more privileges than darker-skinned blacks. And very light skinned blacks often (and still do) "passed" for white.

And many immigrants anglicized their names because of prejudice against the Jews, the Irish, the Italians, etc.


So I guess in the sense of whether or not they are a dispised minority they can "change" their skin color or who their parents are or their ethnicity.

 

[Brieuse]

yes, by their peers. MercyBurst never said that reparative therapy works, he simply stated what is a widely held theory today, that sexuality, including sexual orientation, may be fluid over time for many people, and is not necessarily fixed at birth.

use the right words! "many" should be "some".

SOME are bisexual, SOME have emotional dramas of the past, MOST don't get "healed", such as Ted Haggard.

They don't get "healed" because there is nothing to heal, and God doesn't see the need to change a perfectly good person.

 

[Brieuse]

use the right words! "many" should be "some".

SOME are bisexual, SOME have emotional dramas of the past, MOST don't get "healed", such as Ted Haggard.

They don't get "healed" because there is nothing to heal, and God doesn't see the need to change a perfectly good person.

As long as ignorant people continue to go see those quacks, there are going to be many broken hearts by "most".

 

[lmnop9876]

use the right words! "many" should be "some".

SOME are bisexual, SOME have emotional dramas of the past, MOST don't get "healed", such as Ted Haggard.

They don't get "healed" because there is nothing to heal, and God doesn't see the need to change a perfectly good person.

I did not once promote the reparative therapy as a solution for homosexual people. As a psychologist-in-training, I am simply stating that many researchers believe that human sexuality, including sexual orientation, is not simply static, as was once believed, but is fluid and dynamic along a continuum from completely homosexual to completely heterosexual. most people's sexual orientation is decided by their early teens, either homosexual, heterosexual, or bisexual. within those broader orientations, many people vary. other people's orientation may change over time, for whatever reason. it is extremely uncommon, however, for a person to just decide to change their orientation and do so, even with substantial 'therapeutic' help.


for example, if sexuality was rated on a 9-point scale, with absolute heterosexuality as 1, absolute homosexuality as 9, and bisexuality as 5, i would normally be at about 2. yet this may fluctuate over time anywhere from 1-3. yet my overall orientation remains heterosexual.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

God can of course do anything. He could turn people ppurple with pink spots if he chose too. He dosent however turn people purple with pink spots or change peoples orientation as neither is nessecery for God to do.

tell that to the lepers! just kidding halo

God doesn't do things out of necessity, He does them according to His will

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

So a straight man can become gay, is that correct?

most definitely

 

[BAFRIEND]

I remember a skit done on Saturday Night Live by Eddie Murphy. He had a makeup artist transform him into a white man and there followed jokes … by the standard of what you are saying blacks are not a minority because they can pretend to be white.
.

That is one of my favorite SNLs.

But your comment is a real stretch.

 

[BAFRIEND]

As long as ignorant people continue to go see those quacks, there are going to be many broken hearts by "most".

By "most" are you refering to homosexuals who loose their partners because they are healed by the therapy ?