Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?

[Neogaia777]

You should inform the Jews that the Old (Mosaic) Covenant is obsolete. 8^)

"Or do you not know, brothers and sisters (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law is lord over a person as long as he lives?" Romans 7:1 Paul wrote this to the church in Rome after Christ had brought about the New Covenant. Notice the present tense.

Also, if you quote Scripture it is best to include the entire sentence. "When he speaks of a new covenant, he makes the first obsolete. Now what is growing obsolete and aging is about to disappear." Hebrews 8:13

Notice that the author said the Old Covenant is growing obsolete and aging and about to disappear, not that it is already obsolete.

More to the point, Jesus said (in Matthew 5:17-19), “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

If you disagree with the above you're disagreeing with Jesus. Whom should I believe, you or Him?

About Matthew 5:17-19...?

Cause people use this all of the time to try and say that the OT law covenant , with all of it's specific commands, etc, is still in full effect, etc, but Jesus Himself was "the end of the law" cause in Him, it was all "finished and/or accomplished" "at the cross", etc...

Paul said it was passing away, or was about to pass away, cause some were just not letting it go fully yet, etc, so for that reason, it was just about to lose all it's power and/or authority, etc, in place of the new that Jesus Himself instituted/brought about, etc...

But back to Jesus, Jesus also said the "least" would be the "greatest" also, etc, and that the "last would be first, and the first would be last", etc, and whomever makes himself the "least", etc, would be the one who would be called "great", etc...

Now, I'm not at accusing Jesus of deception, but maybe only of some very great exquisite and extreme "cunning", etc, because, think about it for minute, a person who desires to be or become great, or be the "absolute greatest", etc, even if it is even just in his own heart only, etc, but some would even take it much much farther than that, etc, anyway, they would be thinking that they are either are very great, or that they would become very great, by teaching and preaching the law, etc, which is a ministry of condemnation, etc, but, anyway, is this really the right kind of heart to have if you are truly to be a true follower of Jesus, etc, to seek to be called "great", or thought of as being "great", or "very very great", etc, especially by other men, or in the eyes of other men, or even in ones own eyes (and heart) even, etc...? Cause it seems kind of the "exact opposite of someone with true humbleness and humility", etc, and one "knowing they are not any better or greater than or superior to any others at all ever", etc, it would seem that a person who was a true follower of Christ, was actually to always seek to always be "the least" instead of "the greatest", etc...

Like I said, I don't think it was "deception" exactly, but I think it was, or might have been, an example of "extra-ordinary maybe extreme cunning on Jesus part", etc... For He knew He was the fulfillment of the law for all, etc, and that He was going to set them (us) all free from all of that, etc, and that was a big part of the reason why He came, etc, Jesus knew that/this, etc, "all of this", etc, so there has to have been an alternative explanation for Him saying something like this, etc, and I think it has to with the whole "greatest" or else "least", "thing", etc...

He did not say that one would not ever enter into the Kingdom of Heaven or Kingdom of God, etc, just that they would be called the "least", etc... and as I already mentioned, Jesus also talked about the "least" actually being the one(s) who would be the "greatest", etc, or would be called "truly great", also, etc... and I think this is because they did not all ever care about being called or referred to as the "least" ever at all in any way ever, etc... and it was actually those ones who sought to be great, or be called great, especially by anything they would do or perform to bring that about, etc, or by or in the eyes of other men, etc, that would actually, in the end, actually be, or be called the "least" actually, etc...

Cause their heart would not at all be very right at all, etc, if they sought out being "great" and/or being called or thought of, especially by other people, as "great", etc...

They would have the "sin of the Devil" in them, etc, or what caused him to be rejected and/or fall, etc...

If you really are a true Christian, then being called the "greatest or the least" should not at all really ever matter at all to you ever at all, etc, and I would say, in fact, that you should even seek out always being thought of as, or only ever referring to your own self in your own heart, as always "the least" only, etc, if your a true follower of Christ, etc...

And now think about it some more, when you read that, you automatically think that you would want to be thought of as being "great", right, etc...? But is that truly the "right way", etc, or the "true Christ followers true way", etc...? Cause my argument would be that it is not at all ever at all, and most definitely and most certainly "isn't", and "isn't at all", etc...

A person who is like that (the former), either in their own heart, or is just openly like that, etc, does not have the right "true Christ's followers perspective and/or point of view", or "heart" either, etc...

I mean, are you going to go around saying to other people that you are "greater than them", because you teach and preach the OT letter of the law, and they do not, etc...? You really going to do that or think that way, etc...? Cause if you are, or are going to, or if you do, then I don't think you will ever ever never be truly called "great" ever in the end, etc...

Then the thought come to me about myself even, if by my own saying this, about not minding being called and/or referred to as "the least" or one of the least, then am I am secretly seeking it cause I really truly want to "great" or called "great", etc...?

So, I hope by now you can clearly see the "trap", etc, and how for a true follower of Christ, none of this should at all ever matter at all, etc... Just simply only "getting in" should be "very, very much, way well plenty "good enough"", etc, and just let God figure out what you either will or won't be called or thought of or referred to or whatnot, when you actually get there, etc, cause anything beyond that, I would say is "sin", and maybe even "great sin", etc, (maybe even the same sin as the Devil even), etc, for any real true Christ follower, or true follower of Christ, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

 

[BobRyan]

The Levitical laws are removed (Heb 8:13; Eph 2:15; Col 2:14), and have been for almost 2,000 years now.

No text in the Bible says that.

For example Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself" - - even you might admit that this is not removed.

So childbirth is still defiling (Lev 12:2)?

Laws about washing and various restrictions to prevent infection - address biological facts that do not change at the cross .. however "liturgy" about animal sacrifices and offerings end at the cross according to Heb 10:4-12. (still being ignored in your response)

Which if very different from the non-Bible statement "The Levitical laws are removed" because that would delete Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself"

As already noted.

Texts already given addressed your point - and you are not responding to them... still.

 

[Neogaia777]

You should inform the Jews that the Old (Mosaic) Covenant is obsolete. 8^)

"Or do you not know, brothers and sisters (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law is lord over a person as long as he lives?" Romans 7:1 Paul wrote this to the church in Rome after Christ had brought about the New Covenant. Notice the present tense.

Also, if you quote Scripture it is best to include the entire sentence. "When he speaks of a new covenant, he makes the first obsolete. Now what is growing obsolete and aging is about to disappear." Hebrews 8:13

Notice that the author said the Old Covenant is growing obsolete and aging and about to disappear, not that it is already obsolete.

More to the point, Jesus said (in Matthew 5:17-19), “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

If you disagree with the above you're disagreeing with Jesus. Whom should I believe, you or Him?

Oh and Romans 7:1 in it's context, or just a couple verses right after it, it talks about the testator or originator of that law or covenant dying, and then them being free from it after that, etc...

But it is clearly talking about Christ's death freeing us from being bound by (the letter of) the law, etc... (But not by it's Spirit, etc)... (the Spirit of or behind the law is still Lord or master over us for as long as we live, etc)...

(And Paul tries to explain that or drive that point home later on, etc)... (as it both is, and has always been, "from the very beginning", etc)...

And I would like to point out also, as I have already tried to point out also, that there were times in the OT, where breaking or violating the letter of a certain law was thought be "more superiorly morally righteous" as well, etc, and people were greatly, very greatly, favored or smiled upon by God because of it, etc, because it was in keeping with the Spirit of, or in and behind, the law, but by violating the letter of it, etc, and that, really is what "cunning" is actually, and while God may not like outright "deception", I think He does sometimes smile upon "cunning" sometimes, sometimes for it's wisdom maybe, etc...

There is a righteousness that is greater than that which comes from the letter of the law, and this "cunning" and this "wisdom" has a lot to do with it sometimes I think, etc...

When done for a "more superiorly righteous/just reason and/or motivation", etc, and not just only, only a purely self-serving one only, etc...

And even maybe even more especially, when it is one that is just mostly only a God serving one only, etc...

Catching an enemy in his own cunning, by being even more cunning, etc, etc, etc...

Sometimes is considered very, very righteous, etc, and actually sometimes seems to actually maybe even "impress God" sometimes, etc...

And while there are so very many numerous examples in the OT of this, etc, "Jael" in the OT in sticking out to me pretty profoundly right now, etc...

Maybe just for it's "shock effect" maybe I don't know...?

Pretty shocking, and brutal, and cold, but considered by God to be very, very righteous, etc...

Look it up if you like...

Anyway,

God Bless!

 

[BobRyan]

Oh and Romans 7:1 in it's context, or just a couple verses right after it, it talks about the testator or originator of that law or covenant dying, and then them being free from it after that, etc...

Indeed - the Law that says "Do not take God's name in vain" Lev 19:18 and "Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5 condemns all mankind as "under the Law" and as "sinners" Rom 3:19-20.

And Christ died the death that the Law demands of said "sinner".


but that did not leave Christians free to "take God's name in vain"' and to refuse to "Love God with all your heart".

That logic is not reasonable.

The NT rejects it.

But it is clearly talking about Christ's death freeing us from being bound by (the letter of) the law, etc... (But not by it's Spirit, etc)

Sin is "still" defined this way - even in the NT "Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4

The gospel was not given to open a new pathway to sin/rebellion against God.

 

[Clare73]

Yes

Would you name a few?

 

[Neogaia777]

And Christ died the death that the Law demands of said "sinner". but that did not leave Christians free to "take God's name in vain"' and to refuse to "Love God with all your heart".

That logic is not reasonable.

Where am I saying that it did, or else didn't, etc...?

But, putting that aside for a minute, there are very, very few exceptions ever to those two commands that you just now mentioned, etc, if any ever at all, etc, but as for "some of the others", etc, there "are times", when it sometimes is "much more superiorly and morally righteous to sometimes make some exceptions to the or that or those normal rules", etc... "sometimes", etc...

And we are supposed to be able to "discern" these/those times, etc, if we want to have a righteousness that exceeds that of the scribes and/or Pharisees, or that which comes from the letter of the law, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Clare73]

No text in the Bible says that.

For example Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself" - - even you might admit that this is not removed.

You know as well as I do that Lev 19 is in regard to the Decalogue, and is not ceremonial law.

In my rather large neck 'o the woods, "Levitical laws" refers to the ceremonial laws, not to the Decalogue.
I suspect you know that as well as I do. . .but maybe not.

Laws about washing and various restrictions to prevent infection - address biological facts that do not change at the cross

To quote a familiar personage: "No text in the Bible says that". . ."The text does not say "to prevent infection" or "biological facts". . .
"You're reading that into the text, and committing eisegesis."

 

[Nathan@work]

Would you name a few?

Love God with all your heart, mind, and soul.

Love your neighbor as yourself.

 

[BobRyan]

Oh and Romans 7:1 in it's context, or just a couple verses right after it, it talks about the testator or originator of that law or covenant dying, and then them being free from it after that, etc...

Indeed - the Law that says "Do not take God's name in vain" Lev 19:18 and "Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5 condemns all mankind as "under the Law" and as "sinners" Rom 3:19-20.

And Christ died the death that the Law demands of said "sinner".


but that did not leave Christians free to "take God's name in vain"' and to refuse to "Love God with all your heart".

That logic is not reasonable.

The NT rejects it.

Where am I saying that it did, or else didn't, etc...?

You appear to be agreeing with my conclusion that such an idea is not in harmony with scripture.

I am hardly in a position to object to that response.

But, putting that aside for a minute, there are very, very few exceptions ever to those two commands that you just now mentioned,

Why do we need "exceptions" to God's commandments ??

but as for "some of the others", etc, there "are times", when it sometimes is "much more superiorly and morally righteous to sometimes make some exceptions to the or that or those normal rules", etc... "sometimes", etc...

Are you suggesting that we play "pick and choose" with God's Word??

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
No text in the Bible says that.

For example Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself" - - even you might admit that this is not removed.

You know as well as I do that Lev 19 is in regard to the Decalogue, and is not ceremonial law.

So then when you say "Levitical laws ended" do you really mean "ceremonial laws ended at the cross but moral law remains in full force"??

In my rather large neck 'o the woods, "Levitical laws" refers to the ceremonial laws, not to the Decalogue.

So then you are saying that Laws in Leviticus that are not ceremonial but rather are part of the moral law of God defining what sin is - remain?

BTW I assume you agree that "Love your neighbor as yourself" is not a "Quote of the Decalogue"

======

be very careful here - else we might agree on something.

 

[pescador]

There is no other covenant, the Old (Mosaic) Covenant is obsolete (Heb 8:13), no one is under it.

I am going to repost this, then I am leaving... The OT laws -- not just those in Leviticus -- are still in effect for all those who are not living under the New Covenant. Christians only are dead to the law but alive to God in Christ Jesus. (Romans 6:11)

Matthew 5:17-18, " “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." As far as I can tell, heaven and earth have not disappeared, so whom should I believe, you or the Lord?

Luke 16:17, "It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.

Romans 2:12-13, "All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous."

Romans 3:19-20, "Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law [present tense] , so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

Romans 3:31, "Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law."

Galatians 3:10, "For all who rely on the works of the law [present tense] are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” [present tense]

1 Timothy 1:8-11, "We know that the law is good [present tense] if one uses it properly. We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me."

Hebrews 7:5, "Now the law requires [present tense] the descendants of Levi who become priests to collect a tenth from the people—that is, from their fellow Israelites—even though they also are descended from Abraham.

Hebrews 9:22, "In fact, the law requires [present tense] that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Hebrews 10:1, "The law is [present tense] only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.

James 2:9-10, "But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted [present tense] by the law as lawbreakers. For whoever keeps the whole law [present tense] and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

James 4:11, "Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister or judges them speaks [present tense] against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it."

1 John 3:4, "Everyone who sins breaks [present tense] the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.

Finally, Paul wrote this to Titus (3:9): "But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless."

 

[Clare73]

Love God with all your heart, mind, and soul.

Love your neighbor as yourself.

Okay, so we're not talking about the Mosaic covenant and the Levitical laws given by Moses, as we were previously.

We're now talking about the new law given by Jesus, the new Lawgiver.

Didn't see when we turned the corner there. .musta' been lookin' 'tother way.

 

[Neogaia777]

I'm no good at "cunning" BTW, and I'm not saying that because I think I am in any way "better than that", or "too good for that", etc, but just that, truth be completely told, I'm just "not that smart", etc...

But am just saying I know I've seen numerous examples of it in the OT, and God seemed almost "impressed by it", etc, and rewared them for it, etc, is all I'm saying, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

@BobRyan

"There can be no true justice, or higher righteousness, as long as, especially "all laws" are "absolute", etc"...

Exceptions are made in the postive as well, (and not just the negative, etc) and "Jesus Himself" is the "most number one primary most best example of that", etc...

God Bless!

 

[Clare73]

So then when you say "Levitical laws ended" do you really mean "ceremonial laws ended at the cross but moral law remains in full force"??
So then you are saying that Laws in Leviticus that are not ceremonial but rather are part of the moral law of God defining what sin is - remain?

I am saying, and have always said, the Decalogue remains and, according to Jesus, is completely complied with in his two commands
(Mt 22:37-40; Ro 13:8-10).

 

[Neogaia777]

"There can be no true justice, or higher righteousness, as long as, especially "all laws" are "absolute", etc"...

And the letter always fails in this, etc, and Jesus Himself showed it/this and proved it/this the best, etc...

Although there are "other examples" as well, etc, in scripture, etc...

God Bless!

 

[BobRyan]

@BobRyan

"There can be no true justice, or higher righteousness, as long as, especially "all laws" are "absolute", etc"...

Exceptions are made in the postive as well, (and not just the negative, etc) and "Jesus Himself" is the "most number one primary most best example of that", etc...

God Bless!

Exceptions then to "Love God with all your heart"? Lev 19:18
Exceptions then to "Love your neighbor as yourself" Deut 6:5

What is your point?

You "need exceptions" for what?

 

[BobRyan]

I am saying, and have always said, the Decalogue remains and, according to Jesus, is completely complied with in his two commands
(Mt 22:37-40; Ro 13:8-10).

You are using "your words" not Christ's

in Matt 22 Jesus said "on these two commandments depend ALL THE LAW and the PROPHETS" so then "all of scripture" -- not just the ten.

 

[Neogaia777]

Exceptions then to "Love God with all your heart"? Lev 19:18
Exceptions then to "Love your neighbor as yourself" Deut 6:5

What is your point?

You "need exceptions" for what?

Go and learn what this means, "I desire mercy (and compassion) and not (unjust judgment and) sacrifice", etc...

And if you are doing allright in this, then I have "no bone to pick with you", etc...

Hold absolutely nothing against you, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Clare73]

I am going to repost this, then I am leaving... The OT laws -- not just those in Leviticus -- are still in effect for all those who are not living under the New Covenant. Christians only are dead to the law but alive to God in Christ Jesus. (Romans 6:11)

There is no other covenant than the New Covenant, the Old (Mosaic) Covenant is obsolete (Heb 8:13), no one is under it.

You are wrestling the Scriptures (2Pe 3:16).