Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?

[Nathan@work]

No one is perfect, only Him. We should strive to not sin. The only way thats possible is if we are willing to do God’s will and He provides us with another helper, the Holy Spirit. We all stumble, but we get up represent and try to learn from our sins. God is greater than our sins.

Right, but the law requires us to be perfect. Do you not agree?

Just in case we think that it’s just an insinuation, Jesus made it clear;

Matthew 5:48 (ESV)
You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Is it possible?

 

[BobRyan]

Right, but the law requires us to be perfect. Do you not agree?

Just in case we think that it’s just an insinuation, Jesus made it clear;

Matthew 5:48 (ESV)
You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Is it possible?

For the lost - Romm 3:19-20 the view of the Law is "it demands perfection and we are not perfect so we are lost"

But for the saved.

Rom 3:31 " Do we then nullify the Law through faith? Far from it! On the contrary, we establish the Law."

1 John 5:3 "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome."

Rev 14:12 "the saints keep the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

The Commandments of God where "the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:1-2 is the 5th Commandment

===================

Is it "possible" to obey God?

Rom 8:4-10 says that for the lost it is not possible "they do not submit to the Law of God neither indeed CAN they"

 

[Nathan@work]

For the lost - Romm 3:19-20 the view of the Law is "it demands perfection and we are not perfect so we are lost"

But for the saved.

Rom 3:31 " Do we then nullify the Law through faith? Far from it! On the contrary, we establish the Law."

1 John 5:3 "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome."

Rev 14:12 "the saints keep the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

The Commandments of God where "the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:1-2 is the 5th Commandment

So does the law differentiate between saved and lost?

Does it require something different from each?

Did Jesus mean what He said? Does it apply to you?

 

[BobRyan]

So does the law differentiate between saved and lost?

The New Covenant is where God chooses to write the LAW on the heart and mind - Jer 31:31-34 -- the Law known to Jeremiah and his readers. That Covenant is unchanged in the NT -- Heb 8:6-12

Even apart from that action by God for those who accept the Gospel -- with no New Covenant .. no Gospel solution.. the Spirit uses the Law to point out where the lost fall short (John 16) and STILL does that work even after the cross according to Paul in Rom 3:19-20

Even in the NT "sin IS transgression of THE LAW" 1 John 3:4 where that LAW includes the TEN having as the "first commandment with a promise" -- the 5th commandment (Eph 6:1-2)

Did Jesus mean what He said in Matt 7 and Matt 19, and Mark 7:6-13? Does it apply to you and me?
I think the answer is yes, and yes.

 

[Nathan@work]

The New Covenant is where God chooses to write the LAW on the heart and mind - Jer 31:31-34 -- the Law known to Jeremiah and his readers.

Apart from that action by God -- with no New Covenant .. no Gospel solution.. the Spirit uses the Law to point out where we fall short and STILL does that work even after the cross according to Paul in Rom 3:19-20

Even in the NT "sin IS transgression of THE LAW" 1 John 3:4 where that LAW includes the TEN having as the "first commandment with a promise" -- the 5th commandment (Eph 6:1-2)

Did Jesus mean what He said in Matt 7 and Matt 19, and Mark 7:6-13? Does it apply to you and me?
I think the answer is yes, and yes.

Ok, so the law requires perfection, Jesus requires perfection....does/can the law perfect us?

 

[BobRyan]

Ok, so the law requires perfection, Jesus requires perfection....does/can the law perfect us?

Hmm each time I say "New Covenant" you say "Law without New Covenant"???

The New Covenant SAYS that it "Writes the LAW on the heart and mind" Jer 31:31-34.

Do we agree to that or ...??

And Paul says that the same Law that condemns in Rom 3:19-20 is the one we "ESTABLISH by FAITH" in Rom 3:31. We can both agree to what that says right?

Gal 3 makes the point that simply having the LAW without the Gospel (New Covenant) is not to have salvation since only God's Gospel (New Covenant) can do the saving ..

"If anyone is in Christ Jesus he is a NEW creation old things passed away all things become new" 2 Cor 5

Rom 2 puts it this way at the end of the chapter.

25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a violator of the Law, your circumcision has turned into uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will his uncircumcision not be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a violator of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.

1 John 1:9 "Forgive us our sins AND to cleanse us from all unrighteousness"

Rom 6
15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under the Law but under grace? Far from it! 16 Do you not know that the one to whom you present yourselves as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of that same one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were entrusted, 18 and after being freed from sin, you became slaves to righteousness.

 

[Nathan@work]

Hmm each time I say "New Covenant" you say "Law without New Covenant"???

The New Covenant SAYS that it "Writes the LAW on the heart and mind" Jer 31:31-34.

Do we agree to that or ...??

And Paul says that the same Law that condemns in Rom 3:19-20 is the one we "ESTABLISH by FAITH" in Rom 3:31. We can both agree to what that says right?

The law is the same, old covenant or new covenant, right? That’s what I believe, so I do not make a distinction between them.

Do you believe it is a different law between covenants?

It is written on the heart of people who have Faith; upheld by Faith. Tablets of stone originally.

That’s the law right?

It requires perfection right? Can the law perfect us?

 

[BobRyan]

Is it possible for the saints to obey God or are they stuck enslaved to rebellion

Rev 14:12 the saints "KEEP the Commandments of God"

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the commandments of God"

Rom 6 - the saints no longer enslaved to sinning.

Rom 8:4-10 says that for the lost it is not possible "they do not submit to the Law of God neither indeed CAN they"

 

[Nathan@work]

Is it possible for the saints to obey God or are they stuck enslaved to rebellion

Rev 14:12 the saints "KEEP the Commandments of God"

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the commandments of God"

Rom 6 - the saints no longer enslaved to sinning.

Rom 8:4-10 says that for the lost it is not possible "they do not submit to the Law of God neither indeed CAN they"

Do you have to keep it perfectly?

 

[BobRyan]

The law is the same, old covenant or new covenant, right?

True - the moral law of God is the same OT and NT as all the great Confessions of Faith of all major denominations admit that.

so then "do not take God's name in vain" in OT and in NT.

That’s what I believe, so I do not make a distinction between them.

Do you believe it is a different law between covenants?

No the moral law of God is the same in both --

It is written on the heart of people who have Faith; upheld by Faith. Tablets of stone originally.

That’s the law right?

It requires perfection right? Can the law perfect us?

No because it is a "standard" - a static "thing"

Infinite God via the Holy Spirit and His New Covenant action is what changes us and creates the new heart.

 

[BobRyan]

Do you have to keep it perfectly?

Let's take a simple example

"Do not take God's name in vain" -- do you have to keep it perfectly or does God actually want the saints to "take His name in vain" as often as they feel they must.??

1 Cor 10 "No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man and God IS FAITHFUL who will not ALLOW you to be tempted beyond that which YOU are able, but will with the temptation PROVIDE the way of escape".

1 John 2:1 "These things I write that you sin NOT but if anyone sins - we have an Advocate with the Father"

 

[Nathan@work]

True - the moral law of God is the same OT and NT as all the great Confessions of Faith of all major denominations admit that.

so then "do not take God's name in vain" in OT and in NT.



No the moral law of God is the same in both --



No because it is a "standard" - a static "thing"

Infinite God via the Holy Spirit and His New Covenant action is what changes us and creates the new heart.

What do you mean by “No it is a “standard” - a static “thing””?

Is that a “no” to the law requiring perfection?

Or is a “no” to the law being able to perfect us?

There were two questions there so I just want to make sure I understand.

 

[Nathan@work]

Let's take a simple example

"Do not take God's name in vain" -- do you have to keep it perfectly or does God actually want the saints to "take His name in vain" as often as they feel they must.??

1 Cor 10 "No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man and God IS FAITHFUL who will not ALLOW you to be tempted beyond that which YOU are able, but will with the temptation PROVIDE the way of escape".

1 John 2:1 "These things I write that you sin NOT but if anyone sins - we have an Advocate with the Father"

Could you boil it down to an even simpler “yes” or “no”?

Do we have to keep the law perfectly?

 

[Neogaia777]

I'd like to comment on my comments about "repentance" earlier...?

The number one absolute very first thing that needs to be changed, and must be changed immediately, is the heart needs a big huge changing, etc...

This should happen when you come to a saving knowledge and/or faith, and should happen almost immediately, etc...

Cause if that does not happen, and does not happen first and almost right away, then quite literally, literally, "nothing else ever at all matters", quite literally, etc...

No amount of trying to overcome and/or repent of any kind of sin after that, etc, quite literally "nothing", etc, if that does not happen first, etc... Filthy, very, very filthy, extremely dirty rags, etc, actually and "offensive odor" to God, etc, if this, the change of heart, does not happen first, etc... cause you'll be without the kind of Love God seeks and wants, etc, which makes everything else 100% completely and totally "meaningless", quite literally, etc...

Then, repentance from sin should come after that, etc, and this can be, or will most likely be, a "lifelong process", after that, etc, but God knows those who put forth the effort in repenting from sin, and those who battle with it, and how hard you are fighting and/or struggling or are resisting or have fought, or do fight, etc, and I think we are rewarded for our efforts and for our not ever giving up on it, etc...

I'd recommend trying to find a way that is not just done just primarily in your own will/strength only though regardless, etc, as I don't think that is "the way", etc... but it's just a suggestion, etc...

Ideally as our Love grows, so should our repentance from sin, "ideally" anyway, but I think I am still working on this, etc...

But when I came to a saving knowledge, when I first did, etc, I can, with absolute certainty, tell you there was a definite change in my heart, etc...

And it was a "big change" too, for the first time, my compassion grew to be so very great, that I actually had to/have to, hold it back and reign it in sometimes, etc, and I feel the pain of others now also, etc, and it has completely changed my life, etc, how I view others, what I think about them, all of it totally changed, etc, and I can genuinely truly I very much, very deeply now, Love, all of them, etc, and like I said, that, has 100% totally and completely changed my life, etc...

The Love I feel now, I don't think can be described in words, and words are inadequate, and fail to fully describe it, etc...

And, I was no longer "arrogant", etc, which was another big change in my life also, etc...

Anyway,

Anyway, you got to have that first or none of the rest of it at all matters, the big change of heart, etc, putting away the egotism and arrogance, etc, or none of any of the rest of it ever at all really truly matters ever, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

I'd like to comment on my comments about "repentance" earlier...?

The number one absolute very first thing that needs to be changed, and must be changed immediately, is the heart needs a big huge changing, etc...

This should happen when you come to a saving knowledge and/or faith, and should happen almost immediately, etc...

Cause if that does not happen, and does not happen first and almost right away, then quite literally, literally, "nothing else ever at all matters", quite literally, etc...

No amount of trying to overcome and/or repent of any kind of sin after that, etc, quite literally "nothing", etc, if that does not happen first, etc... Filthy, very, very filthy, extremely dirty rags, etc, actually and "offensive odor" to God, etc, if this, the change of heart, does not happen first, etc... cause you'll be without the kind of Love God seeks and wants, etc, which makes everything else 100% completely and totally "meaningless", quite literally, etc...

Then, repentance from sin should come after that, etc, and this can be, or will most likely be, a "lifelong process", after that, etc, but God knows those who put forth the effort in repenting from sin, and those who battle with it, and how hard you are fighting and/or struggling or are resisting or have fought, or do fight, etc, and I think we are rewarded for our efforts and for our not ever giving up on it, etc...

I'd recommend trying to find a way that is not just done just primarily in your own will/strength only though regardless, etc, as I don't think that is "the way", etc... but it's just a suggestion, etc...

Ideally as our Love grows, so should our repentance from sin, "ideally" anyway, but I think I am still working on this, etc...

But when I came to a saving knowledge, when I first did, etc, I can, with absolute certainty, tell you there was a definite change in my heart, etc...

And it was a "big change" too, for the first time, my compassion grew to be so very great, that I actually had to/have to, hold it back and reign it in sometimes, etc, and I feel the pain of others now also, etc, and it has completely changed my life, etc, how I view others, what I think about them, all of it totally changed, etc, and I can genuinely truly I very much, very deeply now, Love, all of them, etc, and like I said, that, has 100% totally and completely changed my life, etc...

The Love I feel now, I don't think can be described in words, and words are inadequate, and fail to fully describe it, etc...

And, I was no longer "arrogant", etc, which was another big change in my life also, etc...

Anyway,

Anyway, you got to have that first or none of the rest of it at all matters, the big change of heart, etc, putting away the egotism and arrogance, etc, or none of any of the rest of it ever at all really truly matters ever, etc...

God Bless!

These people who say they have been born again, but still have very critical, and judgmental and condemning wicked hard hearts, I don't think are really truly saved, or have been truly truly born again yet, etc, as I think they still have a very, very, "long long way to go" yet, etc...

Maybe they never actually came to a true true saving knowledge yet, etc...? I don't know, etc... I just know they are not truly saved yet, etc, and I feel like I can say that with 100% absolute certainty, etc...

If the truth that you come to and/or learn does not affect and change heart that way, in the way that I describe in the post above, then maybe it wasn't the real kind of saving faith/belief/truth to begin with, etc...

Cause you should have a very great, very very great, great, great, exceedingly great, etc, very genuine and true heartfelt compassion for just about everyone afterwards, or it was never a true heart conversion, etc, and without that, I don't think your really truly saved, etc, not yet anyway, etc...

And if your still walking in a kind of self-assuming, haughty kind of arrogance, I guarantee you, you are not truly saved yet either, etc...

And then repentance from sin comes after this, etc, and may be a lifelong process, but this must be first, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

And you will need to discern God's true will, in any given situation, as they come along, etc, with that new heart, etc, and then do or not do, be, etc, what you know from within is either right, or else wrong, from within, etc, because God's true will will not always be completely in line with the letter of the law always, etc, and in fact there probably will be many times that it just simply won't be, etc, there will be exceptions to the letter of the law sometimes, etc, and you will show/know that you truly have a righteous that exceeds that of the righteousness that can come from the law, when you are able to discern these times, and do what is "truly right" regardless, or irregardless, etc, or God's true will always, etc...

And that "new heart" must be your guide/compass, etc...

Or your born again conscience, etc...

This is how they originally knew (already knew) in the Garden before they fell, etc...

When they ate from the tree that they thought would bring them a better and/or superior knowledge of it (right and wrong) than that, etc....

But what did it do really...?

Well, I guess we all know the answer to that, etc...

Actually brought forth evil, and sin, and death, etc...

Same thing the letter of the law is said to do after Christ in the NT, etc...

God Bless!

 

[klutedavid]

With the growing number of churches that are teaching God’s laws are a thing of the past citing arguments like “we are not under the law we are under grace” or “Gods laws are only for the Jews ” I thought I would create a post to examine what does the Bible teach us about the laws of God. If we remove God's laws what are we really teaching and what are we removing from our lives?

Paul tells us in 2 Corinthians 13: 5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.
According to scripture we should test ourselves to ensure we are in the faith.

My pastor preached a beautiful sermon on this topic so I wanted to share here.

What happens if we remove Gods laws? Is God’s character in Gods laws? If we remove His laws are we removing God?

God is Good:
Luke 18:19 So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God

God’s law is Good:
Romans 7:12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

God is Holy:
Isaiah 5:16 But the Lord of hosts shall be exalted in judgment,
And God who is holy shall be hallowed in righteousness.

God’s law is Holy:
Romans 7:12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

God is Just:
Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, His work is perfect;
For all His ways are justice,
A God of truth and without injustice;
Righteous and upright is He.

God’s laws are Just: Romans 7:12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

God is Perfect:
Mathew 5:48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

God’s law is Perfect:
Psalms 19:7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul;
The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple;

God is Love
1 John 4:8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

God's law is Love:
Romans 13:10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

God is Righteous
Exodus 9:27 2 And Pharaoh sent and called for Moses and Aaron, and said to them, “I have sinned this time. The Lord is righteous, and my people and I are wicked.

God’s laws are Righteous
Psalms 19:9 The fear of the LORD is pure, enduring forever. The decrees of the LORD are firm, and all of them are righteous.

God is Truth:
Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, His work is perfect; For all His ways are justice, A God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright is He.

God’s law is Truth:
Psalms 119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth. Psalms 119:151 You are near, O LORD, And all Your commandments are truth.

God is Pure:
1 John 3:3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

God’s laws are Pure:
Psalms 19:8 the precepts of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart; the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes;

God is Spiritual:
John 4:24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

God’s law is Spiritual:
Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.

God is Unchangeable:
Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

God’s laws are Unchangeable:
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

God is Eternal
Genesis 21:33 And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the LORD, the everlasting God.

God’s laws are Eternal
Psalms 111:7,8 The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure. They stand fast forever and ever, And are done in truth and uprightness

Considering God’s character is reflected in Gods laws, when we remove God’s law what else are we removing?

Yes, we are saved by grace (God’s gift) but what else does the Word of God tell us?

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

2 John 1:6 This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it.

1 John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

Mathew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

1 John 2:4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Mathew 19:17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Revelations 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

God's commandments are found in Exodus 20 written in our hearts and mind in the new covenant Hebrews 10:16.

God bless

Grace removed the condemnation of the law. Now salvation is a gift by grace through faith. Christ changed everything.

 

[Neogaia777]

And you will need to discern God's true will, in any given situation, as they come along, etc, with that new heart, etc, and then do or not do, be, etc, what you know from within is either right, or else wrong, from within, etc, because God's true will will not always be completely in line with the letter of the law always, etc, and in fact there probably will be many times that it just simply won't be, etc, there will be exceptions to the letter of the law sometimes, etc, and you will show/know that you truly have a righteous that exceeds that of the righteousness that can come from the law, when you are able to discern these times, and do what is "truly right" regardless, or irregardless, etc, or God's true will always, etc...

And that "new heart" must be your guide/compass, etc...

Or your born again conscience, etc...

This is how they originally knew (already knew) in the Garden before they fell, etc...

When they ate from the tree that they thought would bring them a better and/or superior knowledge of it (right and wrong) than that, etc....

But what did it do really...?

Well, I guess we all know the answer to that, etc...

Actually brought forth evil, and sin, and death, etc...

Same thing the letter of the law is said to do after Christ in the NT, etc...

God Bless!

There are so very many parallels between the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and the OT law covenant in scripture that I hardly no where to begin, or end with it, etc...

We "eat" words, or we "eat" what see and/or hear or perceive or take in with the five senses, etc, but in this case it will be what we "read", etc...

When we read the law it is like eating of the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil... And the more we retain consciousness of it, the letter of them anyway, the worse off we become... Paul talks about how sin revived in him because of the law, etc, and how having a constant consciousness of it only gave strength to the evil and sinful passions within him, etc, and how that was it's curse, etc, and how it killed him and caused him to die spiritually, because of it, etc...

And is that not just exactly what happened to or with Adam and Eve when they ate from the tree, etc...? A curse came upon them, and they died, spiritually, etc, separated them from God, etc...

It created a sin consciousness in them that they did not have before, and they hid themselves from God and ran away from the presence of God because they were afraid, etc...

And they already knew good from evil, and that is the thing, but the lie of the enemy made them doubt that, and convinced them they didn't already, etc...

And it was superior to the former, that righteousness, cause, although they did not have the letter of it, they already fully knew and understood it's spirit, or the spirit of it, etc, which both is, and always was, and always will be, superior to the letter of it, the law, etc...

You have to be very very careful with "sin consciousness", as it can be a trap a lot of time, etc...

I suggested this to one person in another thread for whom nothing else was working for him in his battle to overcome sin, etc, it's very unorthodox, but if you want to check it out, I will leave the link here below...

need advice...

It suggests a methodical and progressive approach with the battle against sin, etc...

And how I told him to only have a consciousness of only the ones he was working on at the time, etc...

Sin consciousness is the problem, and the problem with the OT law covenant, and is why it comes with a curse normally, etc...

Too much, and your certain to fall and fail, etc, not enough or not any at all, then you may not ever get anywhere in your battle against sin, or ever grow at all, etc...

I know the commandments, but I don't actively review them all of the time, etc, but they are in "the back of my mind", etc, and that's exactly where I like them to be, etc, at the front is Love, and I will follow it first, with my new heart and new born again conscience, etc, for I know that no written down law is ever absolute, etc, and so I am trusting my new heart and my new conscience to hopefully be able to fully know and accurately discern all of the "exceptions", etc, as I think this will make me have a righteousness that exceeds that that can be attained, and/or come from the letter of the law only alone, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

And that's where the Holy Spirit operates, in the new born again heart and conscience, etc...

And you will definitely need His help to "discern", etc...

God Bless!

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Grace removed the condemnation of the law. Now salvation is a gift by grace through faith. Christ changed everything.

I’ve stated this couple times and maybe you missed it. We are saved by God’s grace (His gift). We don’t obey to be saved. We obey because we are saved and have a changed heart.