Religious Spirits

[Tobias]

Judges 16:1 Now Samson went to Gaza and saw a harlot there, and went in to her. 2 When it was told to the Gazites, saying, “Samson has come here,” they surrounded the place and lay in wait for him all night at the gate of the city. And they kept silent all night, saying, “Let us wait until the morning light, then we will kill him.” 3 Now Samson lay until midnight, and at midnight he arose and took hold of the doors of the city gate and the two posts and pulled them up along with the bars; then he put them on his shoulders and carried them up to the top of the mountain which is opposite Hebron.


One thing I've noticed in my extensive use of this story , is that it does not say that "The spirit of the Lord came upon him, and Samson tore off the gates of the city..."

Does any Christian question whether or not it was God who empowered Samson? Did the fact that he was there to sleep with a harlot preclude God's ability/desire to help him, and leave Samson open to false spirits?

If Samson were alive today, then a very large portion of the Church would be blaming the destroyed city gates on the spirit of Kundalini!!!

 

[Simon Peter]

Oh no, do feel free to criticize away!

Now you are contradicting yourself.

You accuse me of being the "Accuser of the Brethren" - and other things - but now you're saying it's OK to criticize.

Make your mind up Tobias. If it's wrong, then you shouldn't be doing it by accusing me. If it's OK, then don't criticize me for doing it.

So... now Bentley was in an adulterous affair before Lakeland began? According to who?

Rev. Stephen Strader and Fresh Fire said there was another woman before the nanny/babysitter/personal assisitant that Todd ended up marrying.

Also, Todd divorced Shonnah. Shonnah did not divorce Todd.

From Fresh Fire ministries:

It also needs to be clarified that Shonnah has in no way initiated this divorce and has no present intention to do so at any time in the future.


Look, we have a two issues here:

1. I only warned people about Bentley because of his extreme false teaching. I knew nothing of his character, and I didn't claim to, prior to Lakeland falling apart.

2. The second issue became character. Todd's staff consistently claimed Todd was a "pathological liar". Certainly some of the stories he tells have been proven false. Stories that were told prior to and during Lakeland.

The Hotel Fire story is a good example and was well researched.

Todd has serious character problems.


Unfortunately, the sin issue became the main story. I wish it hadn't, because people started talking about restoration etc. But from my perspective, why restore a false teacher?

Bentley has never repented of any of his false teaching. In fact if you read Bentley's post-Lakeland statement carefully, he doesn't really admit or repent of anything.

Two huge problems:

1. False teaching
2. Character

If they are serious issues, and in Todd's case they are, either one should be enough to disqualify him from ministry. Until's there's serious evidence of repentance and change.

Back on topic: Hence my problem with C Peter Wagner. Why I would I trust a guy to write a book on discernment, when he couldn't even spot the 6ft2in wolf in the child's sheep costume?



peace,
Simon

 

[Simon Peter]

Oscarr,

You asked me about half a dozen questions, which I did my best to answer fully.

See here:

questions

At least do me the courtesy of answering the two or three questions I asked you.

peace,
Simon

 

[Tobias]

Several years ago a guy named Mike Warnkey was exposed as a total fraud. He had written a book claiming to be an ex satanist high priest, and spent may years traveling around teaching and preaching and entertaining Christians as a comedian. Then one day somebody decided to ask his old friends what they knew about him, and as it turns out there was no way the details of his secret satanist life had the opportunity to take place.

This "discovery" did not take place by studying the Bible, nor by comparing what he preached with scriptures. It did not happen by someone's awesome ability to discern false spirits. Like I say, there is a different skill set involved in "catching" somebody in the act!

Comparing Wagner's inability to "catch someone in the act" with his ability to discern spirits, is like comparing apples with oranges. The book is not a manual on how to determine who is sinning where, but on the spirit they operate their ministry out of (or so I imagine, I haven't read it.)

So as long as we can keep the two separate, then we can continue this conversation.

Rev. Stephen Strader and Fresh Fire said...

This is the same ministry that erased Bentley's controversial teachings off their website, and changed his testimonies to be more politically correct, right? Perhaps the same that covered up the indiscretion while it was happening? Is it any surprise they would flop sides, and support the ex-wife when it all hit the fan? (Pick as side, either you believe these guys or not, Simon! )


When I encountered Lakeland, I had serious issues with Bentley's style and personality. But I sensed God drawing me in, so I got over it. When things started to unravel, it was difficult to tell if it was just my personal issues with him, and the music leader's inability to stay on key, or the Holy Spirit departing.

Lakeland may not have been for everybody. But I know it was my God who drew me in! I stand in protest to anybody who would argue that there was nothing but human personality and smoke and mirrors that attracted so many saints to the meetings and the tv. As the only other option is to say that it was false spirits that attracted us from the very beginning, I must stand as a man of God and put my integrity on the line and say: NO, IT WAS GOD!

Were there false spirits as well? sure. I even talked with the angel Emma and received one of her buddies into my home through the tv! But I can tell you, that absolutely nothing has come from that spirit! I've spent quite a bit of time looking around for it, but it must have lost interest right away and moved on. Funny how when you seek God and God alone, there just isn't any place for the enemy to take root.

Crafty Bible study and an extreme sense of caution might have kept many people who were meant to go to Lakeland from getting involved. What happens when God moves you to listen to a preacher that your brain disapproves of? God uses imperfect vessels. The key to it is not to worship the vessel, but to keep your eyes on Him.

Generally, a person's integrity is God's business, and those in ministry around them. When the leadership of Lakeland and Fresh Fire covered over the facts, we were left with just our spiritual senses. And Wagner is definitely at fault for trying to establish someone who he obviously knew nothing about! Why God used Bentley despite of his sin, is the same mystery why He is able to use any of us. But I only followed Bentley as far as he was yielding to God, and didn't divorce my wife because I thought that was the thing godly men were supposed to do!

 

[Tobias]

Now you are contradicting yourself.

You accuse me of being the "Accuser of the Brethren" - and other things - but now you're saying it's OK to criticize.

Make your mind up Tobias. If it's wrong, then you shouldn't be doing it by accusing me. If it's OK, then don't criticize me for doing it.

Simon

The "Accuser of the Brethren" is Satan. His purpose in this department is to let us all know just how sinful we are, and unworthy of God's attention.

When Christians also point out one another faults; is there not a chance that we might be siding with Satan on this? Do you think it is impossible to side with Satan, and help assist him in accusing the brethren?

I don't think it's all or nothing. Perhaps there is a line we can draw that distinguishes between accusing someone in the name of Satan, and actually helping to correct the errors of a brother?

What do you think? (I think you are taking stuff I said a little too personally, when I clearly did not address you personally in that post. But if the shoe fits and you are feeling convicted by the H.S.... )

 

[gratefulgrace]

If we are talking about religious spirits, then it is spirits that we are talking about, not men. We then are not talking about Wagner or Bently are we, but how religious spirits work and effect people.

All angels are ministering spirits! Angels that serve the Lord minister in such a way as to glorify the Lord. Fallen angels (demons) minister in ways as to not glority the Lord. We call spirits 'religious spirits' because they minister religion as opposed to ministering the Lord.

Because they are religious spirits, they are spirits that are at work in every Christian church!!!!

This is important to understand so I'll repeat it. Religious spirits can be found working in every Christian church!! And they take up cheif seats if they can. The seats are people.

If you are a person in leadership at a church, you will come under attack by religious spirits!!!

In the book Revelation, John, on behalf of 'Him who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, and from Jesus Christ, and John wrote to seven the seven churches that are in Asia, but John specfically wrote to the seven angels at those churches!!!

Were that angels specfically written to angels that served the Lord or were they demonic angels that we call religious spirits?

Rev 2 To the angel of the church in Ephesus write...Therefor remember from where you have fallen

Demons are fallen angels! There was a religious spirit in a position of authority at Ehpesus

Rev 2:12-13 To the angel of the church in Pergamum write:... I know where you dwell, where Satan's throne is

Jacob saw a ladder where angels from the Lord were ascending and descending. Those anels did not dwell where Satan's throne is.

Rev 33 To the angel of the church in Sardis write: I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.

Angels that serve the Lord are alive

And to the angels at all seven chruches is was written, "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.."

What type of angels has to be told to let those people that can hear, hear what the Spirit has to say?

Religious spirits are deaf dump spirits, and our battle is not with flesh and blood but powers and principalities!! Perhaps the most difficult powers and principalities to deal with and discern are the powers and principalities that take up positions of authority (our leaders) inside our own church!!

Religious spirits are 'religious spirits' because they tell you to make it about works of religion instead of making it about hearing what the Spirit of God has to say to us!!! And they like to minister to people in authority in our church!!

Please note: Religious spirits are not the only spirits that operate inside the church. Religious spirits are deaf dump spirits because they do not want you listening to the Spirit of God. They have to be told to let those that hear, hear what the Spirit of God has to say.

Spirits of false prophecy (and there are many spirits under the False prophet) don't prevent people from hearingm but pretend to be the Spirit of God. Check for spirits of false prophecy using 1 Jn 3:1-4

The best I could tell, Bently was looking to hear from the Spirit of God. It was doubt full that a religious spirit was going to have much effect upon him. He was probably more vulnerable to an attack by a spirit of false prophecy instead of a religious spirit.

The devil/ devils come to kill and destroy, and that means they come after us. We are all subject to it. There are demons that love to accuse also. So we need to turn to the Lord and hear what the Spirit of God has to say, and we need to check the spirits like is written in the Scriptures, and we all battle with powers and principalities, so if anyone is thinking they have it all together and they are not subject to attack or being tricked by a fallen ministering spirit (demon) they need to remember that the Lord told his disciple to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees.

I have some questions. When Jesus told the Pharisees that their father was the devil, was Jesus talking to the person or the religious spirits manipulating the person?

When He told Peter, "Satan get behind Me." was Jesus talking to Peter or the spirit manipulation Peter?

If we don't listen to what the Spirit has to say and check the spirits, who is going to get fooled?

It's a good thing that God has choosen to use the foolish things of the world>

I have to say I have never heard Revelation 3 described this way. I do not agree with it but it is different. Perhaps you could elaborate. gg

 

[gratefulgrace]

Oh no, do feel free to criticize away!


So... now Bentley was in an adulterous affair before Lakeland began? According to who? Because according to the two people who would actually know (himself and the new Mrs. Bentley), nothing happened before the marriage fell apart. This is where I draw the line, personally. This is where I sensed things go south at Lakeland, and also when Bentley stepped back and started letting other people take over.


In the Bible we see the story of the Pharisees bringing a woman caught in adultery before Jesus. How was this woman caught? Did the Pharisees spend their time looking into people's windows and seeing what they are up to?

The ability to catch someone in adultery has nothing to do with being able to rightly divide the Truth from the scriptures. It also has little to do with being able to correctly sense the Spirit of God. Samson got up one night out of the bed of a harlot, and ripped the gates off the city and carried them up to the top of a nearby mountain.

I'm not sure exactly where God draws the line with a preacher that is struggling. But just like Samson, we know that He does use them, up until the point when He doesn't. If God was using Bentley at Lakeland during the evenings, and he was cheating on his wife during the rest of his time... then I will refer you to Samson. But if it simply is people who follow religious spirits that have special insight into the extent of Bentley's sin, then we need to recognize that as well and consider the source of their information!

Did the Pharisees really want to find adulterers, so they believed everybody who came to them with eyewitness accounts? Did they already determine that the guy she slept with was a danger to their teachings, so when he "fell" they jumped up and down in glee, and immediately executed him but weren't sure what to do with the woman?


Peeping Tom abilities are a completely different set of skills than being able to understand and teach the scriptures!

I would talk to the original Mrs. Bentley they had had problems before Lakeland perhaps that would be more revealing. And for the record, the time line seems to indicate that the 'innapropriate encounter with a female assistant' happened before the Aughust 12th announcement of separation.
Bentley, who led a heavily publicized revival in Lakeland, Fla., beginning this spring, announced in a statement Aug. 12 that he and his wife Shonnah were separating. The staff of Bentley’s Fresh Fire Ministries said “an atmosphere of fatigue and stress” created by the daily revival meetings “exacerbated existing issues in [his marriage],” according to Charisma. On Aug. 15, the board of Fresh Fire released a statement saying it had learned Bentley had been involved in “an unhealthy relationship on an emotional level with a female member of his staff.” The statement said Bentley had agreed to “to refrain from all public ministry for a season to receive counsel in his personal life.”Psted August 19 by David Roach.

 

[Tobias]

I would talk to the original Mrs. Bentley they had had problems before Lakeland perhaps that would be more revealing.

From the moment she showed up in Lakeland (weeks after Todd had already been there) it was made known that they were having some marital difficulties. But, they were trying to work through them.

I just assume that God honor's our attempts to live a life of integrity. That His Holy Spirit can use a person who isn't perfect, but is trying. This would explain why God did use Bentley for a while, until things got beyond that which is necessary for God to continue using him. Kind of like Samson flirting with sin all the way up until he got the haircut, which only at that point finished his ministry off!

 

[Simon Peter]

Several years ago a guy named Mike Warnkey was exposed as a total fraud.

Yes I read Warnkey's book and am familiar with the fraud.

Comparing Wagner's inability to "catch someone in the act" with his ability to discern spirits, is like comparing apples with oranges. The book is not a manual on how to determine who is sinning where, but on the spirit they operate their ministry out of (or so I imagine, I haven't read it.)

So as long as we can keep the two separate, then we can continue this conversation.

I agree these are two seperate, but related, issues.

I didn't expect Wagner to spiritually discern that Bentley was a liar, adulterer and drunk.

I did expect Wagner to question Bentley's outrageous teachings, that were not hidden or secret, and his stories that did not sound right at all. But most of all, I expect any leader or discernment teacher, to be able to look at the man, his teaching, what comes out of his mouth, his personality (is he humble or on a total ego trip) the way he talks about the Lord, and discern if this is a man of God or someone who needs a little more research.

I don't pretend to have any deep gift of discernment, I just needed to watch 5 minutes of Todd Bentley TV to see that it was ALL ABOUT TODD.

In fact, IMO he was so obviously not a man of God, that to fail to see that required spiritual blindness. By which I mean a niavete that just accepts the claims and manifestations at face value, without question.

This is the same ministry that erased Bentley's controversial teachings off their website, and changed his testimonies to be more politically correct, right? Perhaps the same that covered up the indiscretion while it was happening? Is it any surprise they would flop sides, and support the ex-wife when it all hit the fan? (Pick as side, either you believe these guys or not, Simon! )

No, these are two different ministries saying the same thing.

Strader is the American Pastor of Lakeland church.
Fresh Fire Ministries are Canadian and were Todd Bentley's ministry before they parted ways because of irreconcilable differences.

The two different ministries have no reason to falsely claim the same thing.

When I encountered Lakeland, I had serious issues with Bentley's style and personality. But I sensed God drawing me in, so I got over it. When things started to unravel, it was difficult to tell if it was just my personal issues with him, and the music leader's inability to stay on key, or the Holy Spirit departing.

...
Were there false spirits as well? sure. I even talked with the angel Emma and received one of her buddies into my home through the tv! But I can tell you, that absolutely nothing has come from that spirit! I've spent quite a bit of time looking around for it, but it must have lost interest right away and moved on. Funny how when you seek God and God alone, there just isn't any place for the enemy to take root.

I think the spirit that Bentley kept saying he was so intent on imparting to everyone, may have been a spirit of delusion. A large part of the church may have accepted some sort of delusion. I dread to think what fruit that may bare down the road.

Generally, a person's integrity is God's business, and those in ministry around them.

Yes, we were failed by those around Bentley. And C. Peter Wagner was one of them.

So we do we now trust Wagner to teach about discernment?


peace,
Simon

 

[Tobias]

Yes, we were failed by those around Bentley. And C. Peter Wagner was one of them.

So we do we now trust Wagner to teach about discernment?


peace,
Simon

I've seen enough from Wagner to not trust much of what he teaches. But that involves a lot more than just Lakeland.

Based on that, I'm not going to bother to read the book. But for all I know, maybe he did get everything perfectly right this time, and those who do read it are completely blessed. <shrug>

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You'll have to forgive me if I delay giving your answers. I am in a different time zone, and I need to sleep sometimes.

Wow! You really bought into Wagner's top down, hierarchical, authoritarian CHURCH of CONTROL.

I have read quite a number of Dr. Wagner's books, and I don't see that at all.

If you read the scriptures on the subject, you will find that Pastor, Prophet, Evangelist, Apostle, Teacher, are gifts of the Holy Spirit, NOT offices.

They are not gifts in the same sense as the nine gifts of the Spirit. They are ministries in the Body of Christ. A particular ministry (say, pastor), may operate in several of the gifts of the Spirit.

Oscarr, I respect the fact you have the gift of prophecy. But that doesn't mean you are over other men. It means you should be a greater servant.

I have never had that attitude. I am taught that a prophetic person needs above all to be teachable. I am not sure whether I have the gift of prophecy or not. I leave that judgment to others to observe whether what I say in the prophetic has an impact and leads a person closer in fellowship with Christ.

The church was intended to meet together as EQUALS (under God) each bringing their gift with them, to minister to one another in love.

Not disputed.

But once man got hold of church, it was distorted into something else entirely. The Protestant church has still not thrown off the baggage of the Roman Catholic style of authority.

There is no such thing as the perfect church. The bride of Christ will not be perfected until Jesus comes again. In the meantime, we need to know that God does everything perfectly correct, but we need to forgive our brothers and sisters sometimes.

But what's relevant is this:

While Wagner was leading people astray by promoting and endorsing the false teacher Bentley, I was warning people.

Now who do you think has God’s approval, the one who leads people astray, or the one who correctly warns people that a teacher is false?




Yes, I have a ministry.
Yes, I have conversions.

But is that how you think the church should function, the man with the most conversions is in authority over the man with less?

Now answer this question for me:
By what authority did Martin Luther criticize the Pope and the Catholic Church?




The information I got about Bentley was from his own words, his own written teachings on his own website, interviews and videos. When I, and others, started to use his words against him, Bentley actually doctored his teachings, going back and editing things he had taught in an effort to pretend he hadn’t taught them!

The Lakeland Revival was broadcast live 24/7. Wagner’s statements were public and well recorded, but he also released statements from his own desk.



peace,
Simon

Sorry, I am called away. I will come back to you later.

 

[Tobias]

Wow! You really bought into Wagner's top down, hierarchical, authoritarian CHURCH of CONTROL.

If you read the scriptures on the subject, you will find that Pastor, Prophet, Evangelist, Apostle, Teacher, are gifts of the Holy Spirit, NOT offices.

Oscarr, I respect the fact you have the gift of prophecy. But that doesn't mean you are over other men. It means you should be a greater servant.

Of everything I saw reading through this thread before I caught up to the end, this one struck me the most. I couldn't remember who wrote it, but meant to go back and find it eventually.

I can't hardly believe it was you who wrote it Simon! Sorry, but I'm so used to arguing with you... My bad.


A hearty AMEN, and two thumbs up!

 

[Tenebrae]

As I keep repeating, thousands of souls are getting converted. Because God's main passion is the conversion of souls to Christ, then I would say that the movement has His approval, even though there may be faults with it.

With any movement that is converting souls to Christ in great numbers, there will be many critics of it. Let's look at the fruit of the lives of those critics as well to see how many converts to Christ they are achieving.

What about the thousands of souls that are being lost due to the fruits of the new apostolic reformation. How does one stand infront of your god and and explain

Says Peter Wagner to God 'yip, several thousand people walked away from the christian faith due to my involvement in the new apostolic reformation, however there were thousands of decisions of people wanting to follow you"

 

[Tenebrae]

Wow! You really bought into Wagner's top down, hierarchical, authoritarian CHURCH of CONTROL.

If you read the scriptures on the subject, you will find that Pastor, Prophet, Evangelist, Apostle, Teacher, are gifts of the Holy Spirit, NOT offices.

Oscarr, I respect the fact you have the gift of prophecy. But that doesn't mean you are over other men. It means you should be a greater servant.

The church was intended to meet together as EQUALS (under God) each bringing their gift with them, to minister to one another in love.

But once man got hold of church, it was distorted into something else entirely. The Protestant church has still not thrown off the baggage of the Roman Catholic style of authority.

But what's relevant is this:
While Wagner was leading people astray by promoting and endorsing the false teacher Bentley, I was warning people.

Now who do you think has God’s approval, the one who leads people astray, or the one who correctly warns people that a teacher is false?




Yes, I have a ministry.
Yes, I have conversions.

But is that how you think the church should function, the man with the most conversions is in authority over the man with less?

Now answer this question for me:
By what authority did Martin Luther criticize the Pope and the Catholic Church?




The information I got about Bentley was from his own words, his own written teachings on his own website, interviews and videos. When I, and others, started to use his words against him, Bentley actually doctored his teachings, going back and editing things he had taught in an effort to pretend he hadn’t taught them!

The Lakeland Revival was broadcast live 24/7. Wagner’s statements were public and well recorded, but he also released statements from his own desk.



peace,
Simon

I'm still an evil heathen, however I would like to say jolly well said.

 

[Tenebrae]

For anyone that is really concerned, google new apostolic reformation movement, look at the pro sites and look at the sites opposed and talk to people who have been involved in the movement. If anyone wants info, feel free to message me

I recommend the book "Kingdom Lost" by Mark Vrankovich

And for anyone that would ask why a non christian would care.

1. I hate seeing a group of people make avoidable mistakes

2. I've met and been involved with at least 4-5 families who have permanently left the christian church as a result of their involvement in the New Apostolic reformation. And these arent people who have gone to other churches these are people who have said "If that was god, I want no part of him", they are hurt and wounded people. If I was a christian I would be completely appalled by this.

3. Christians are supposed to have a higher standard and better way of going things than us non christians. I work in mental health, and really object to the fact that at least 25-40% of my client base has been refered to me as a result of their experiences of NAR based churches

 

[Tenebrae]

An analogy for anyone to consider, the following is hypothetical, I have not now or ever hurt or killed anyone.

lets say 10 years ago, I kill three people in a drunken state of driving, and have driven off the road and killed those three people

Lets say last year, I am in a situation, and end up saving 15 lives by pulling them out of a crashed bus.

Sure, I saved the 15 lives, however does that make me any less responsible or any less guilty of the deaths of the 3 people I killed 10 years ago

Peter Wagner might be instrumental in the salvation decisions of 10s of thousands of people, does that make him any less responsible for the hundreds of people who have left the christian faith due to the new apostolic reformation movement which he is a key proponent of

 

[mrmccormo]

That is the problem with some (note I said some) of these modern movements: they are all too willing to claim the victories, but they shuffle the defeats under the carpet. I suppose admitting to your mistakes and shortfalls wouldn't be a good way of "speaking it into being" and "using faith to move mountains".

To me, that is why I am skeptical of many of the aspects of the Charismatic movement. I do not deny that things like tongues, healing, prophecy, and even the "weird" manifestations. These things are real and I have experienced them firsthand. However, I often doubt many of the ministries behind these movements. I often have glaring questions and the only responses I receive is either "You are not a faith-filled Christian because you don't believe us" or "Shut up and pay attention! We healed some people, so we're above any doubt or reproach! Now, let's go conjure up some angels!"

 

[Simon Peter]

The "Accuser of the Brethren" is Satan. His purpose in this department is to let us all know just how sinful we are, and unworthy of God's attention.

When Christians also point out one another faults; is there not a chance that we might be siding with Satan on this? Do you think it is impossible to side with Satan, and help assist him in accusing the brethren?

I don't think it's all or nothing. Perhaps there is a line we can draw that distinguishes between accusing someone in the name of Satan, and actually helping to correct the errors of a brother?

There is a third option:

3. Christians pointing out blatant deception and falsehood in the church, to protect brothers from falling for it.

2. Christians pointing out the sins of brothers, in love, to restore

1. "Accuser of the Brethren" Satan, trying to condemn saints before God and cause guilt and shame.

What do you think? (I think you are taking stuff I said a little too personally, when I clearly did not address you personally in that post. But if the shoe fits and you are feeling convicted by the H.S.... )

No, I don't take any of this stuff personally.
And my conscience, regarding my criticism of Bentley and Wagner, is 100% clear.

Of everything I saw reading through this thread before I caught up to the end, this one struck me the most. I couldn't remember who wrote it, but meant to go back and find it eventually.

I can't hardly believe it was you who wrote it Simon! Sorry, but I'm so used to arguing with you... My bad.


A hearty AMEN, and two thumbs up!

Lol. I guess if I voice enough opinions we're bound to agree somewhere.

And there's the old saying, 'even a stopped clock is right twice a day'.


peace,
Simon

 

[Simon Peter]

Originally Posted by Oscarr

I wonder what local church's authority you are working under?

And are they aware of your remarks about Dr Wagner. Would they approve of your criticism of one of the leading ministries in church growth, healing, and spiritual warfare...
​

Wow! You really bought into Wagner's top down, hierarchical, authoritarian CHURCH of CONTROL.

If you read the scriptures on the subject, you will find that Pastor, Prophet, Evangelist, Apostle, Teacher, are gifts of the Holy Spirit, NOT offices.

Simon

I have read quite a number of Dr. Wagner's books, and I don't see that at all.

Then why do you ask:


1. What local church authority am I working under?

2. Is my local church aware of my remarks about Doctor Wagner?

3. Would my local church approve of my criticism of "one of the leading ministries in church growth, healing, and spiritual warfare..."


Are you seriously kidding me?

You think I need permission and oversight from my local church to post an opinion on a forum, or to criticize false teaching?

If that is where Wagner, sorry...Doctor Wagner, wants to take the church, 'be afraid, be very afraid!'

peace,
Simon

 

[K2K]

I have to say I have never heard Revelation 3 described this way. I do not agree with it but it is different. Perhaps you could elaborate. gg

We have seen where it is written that we do not battle with flesh and blood but with powers and principalities, but do we act like that is the case.

A thread is posted about religious spirits. Then the subject on the thread is about spirits that minister to us about religion instead of Jesus Christ.

It is important to understand that our battle is with spirits, so the thread is very useful, but the thread is changed into an arguement about men, instead of a discussion on religious spirits.

Why?

Is is because religious spirits do not want the topic discussed, so they have influenced the thread so as to change the topic?

WE HAVE A BATTLE WITH SPIRITS, NOT MEN. THE MEN WE WIND UP BATTLING WITH ARE BEING INFLUENCED BY SPIRITS, JUST AS WE ARE. IF WE ARE TAKING A TOPIC ABOUT REGILIOUS SPIRITS AND TURNING IT INTO A TOPIC ABOUT THIS GUY AND THAT GUY, WE HAVE PLAYED RIGHT INTO SATAN'S HAND! AND THAT HAPPENS BECAUSE WE ARE NOT AWARE OF THE BATTLE WITH SPIRITS.

Jn 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom in not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews, but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm."

Have you read the parable about the kingdom being compared to a net? The net picks op both good and bad, and after the net is brought in the good and the bad is separated.

So then, His kingdom is not of this world, and for now is consist of both good and bad. So we need to realize that our battle is with spirits, not men!!!

The Pharisees were physical offspring of Isreal, yet the Lord said their father was the devil. Jesus certainly knew who he was battling with, and it was not with flesh and blood, but powers and principalities (spirits).

The Pharisees didn't hear His voice, yet Peter was a disciple and still missed the fact that Satan was using him. So even disciples of Jesus Christ can miss the fact that we are being mislead by Satan. Paul wrote that he did the very things that he didn't want to, but then again, it was not him but sin in him. Paul knew of the battle taking place inside himself.

Yet what about those changing a thread about religious spirits into a thread about good and bad men? Are they aware of the battle going on in them? Do they understand the battle is not with flesh and blood, but with powers and principalities?

A thread about religious spirits is important on a Christian forum, but the religous spirits opperating inside people have changed the topic. And this is what happens in churches. The religious spirits take up chief seats (people in high positions) if they can, and make it about religion instead of listening to the King.

Jn 18:37 "You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice."

The Pharisees didn't hear His voice, though He talked to them in the flesh. They thought Jesus had a demon, but it was them that had the demons. And Peter did hear His voice and told Jesus that He was the Christ, Jesus told Peter that He was blessed because he did not get that from men. Peter heard with his spiritual ears, but still got used by Satan.

We need to work on our discernment of spirits. That is not the same thing and battling about men!

So I ask: Who changed the topic about religious spirits into a discussion about this guy and that guy? It was not the men on the keyboards, but rather religious spirits influencing the men!

This was an excellent thread, and has excellent examples on the topic, but you have to listen and pay attention to see it!

So in Rev, John wrote to seven churches but specifically to the angel (demon/ religious spirit/ principality) who had taken up the chief seat (person) at those churches. John told the relgious spirits, "Let those you have and ear to hear, hear what the Spirit says to the churches". That is what we need to do. That is what I am trying to do. So hear what the Spirit has to say, and quite listening to those religious spirits that are changing the topic!