Religious Spirits

[tturt]

We/ve discussed Todd Bentley to the max - not going there myself.

Bring up Peter Wagner and really anybody and we'll be happy as a group to do all we can to low rate them and not just on this forum.

 

[Blueberrymuffin09]

agree tturt. I mean, enough is enough. No one is perfect, some aren't where they should be, but they are our brothers and sisters in Christ. I think it is time to start acting like it instead of judging all the time.

 

[Simon Peter]

agree tturt. I mean, enough is enough. No one is perfect, some aren't where they should be, but they are our brothers and sisters in Christ. I think it is time to start acting like it instead of judging all the time.

Discernment is judgment.

Wagner's book is encouraging you to discern/judge whether a brother has a religious spirit or not. That is a serious judgment.

But how come I'm not allowed to discern whether Wagner speaks the truth or not?


peace,
Simon

 

[Source Scripture]

I just love when these self proclaimed "prophets" like Wagner come along, and people fawn all over their every word.

 

[Source Scripture]

The Title of the Book is Freedom From The Religious Spirit, by C Peter Wagner.

I see that there are some good sites where one can obtain second hand copies of good Christian books. Perhaps that is one way you can get a good inexpensive copy.

Wagner pushed his "religious" spirit. Dominionism!

 

[Source Scripture]

Paul marvelled at how the miracle wielding false apostles invaded Corinth, and how the church just took them right in.


2 Corinthians 11:20For you bear it if someone makes slaves of you, or devours you, or takes advantage of you, or puts on airs, or strikes you in the face.

 

[gratefulgrace]

There is so much that is being 'preached' and discussed in Chrisitan circles groups that really leaves me in a state of deep concern. Evangelical Christians are almost making a prophet out of Geln Beck because of his stand for Israel. I applaud him for that but please when he speaks about Biblical truth be very cautious. As with most cults the terminology can be the same but the meaning behind the words totally different. I used to try and witness to JW's who came to my door and the occaisional COG it is difficult to make them see the truth. Or am I now judging too harshly?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoiwZ3HoJMM&feature=player_embedded#!

 

[tturt]

I'm not elevating Peter Wagner or anyone else. Everyone that comes to these boards already knows their faults. Just don't see any need to continue to low rate them.

 

[Leimeng]

~ So what errors are acceptable then? One can push teachers of demonic doctrines like cessationism which clearly teaches a different Jesus than that of the Bible, or calvinism which is named after a guy whose profession of faith is that he was baptized when a baby by a priest (of an apostate religion which he railed against) and call them Christian brothers, invite them into there congregations and celebrate when they rant against other Christians, who believe the entirety of the Gospel but make a few errors.
~ Which is it? Anti-Bible teachers (often with incredible documented moral flaws such as adultry, racism, drunkeness, murder, theft, etc) being allowed to lead the church and considered as good wise teachers; or teachers who, while not teaching false doctrines concerning Christ, do have areas of error and moral lapses in their lives, thus being condemned without prayer and thought by other Christians...
~ Honestly, sometimes I consider that if I was not a Christian, I would not want to be one by the rancor and hatred that other Christians display towards each other...
~ Continue to discuss amongst yourselves...

Peace,

Leimeng

Flatulo Ergo Sum ~~~

(***Insert Personal One Liner Here***)

 

[Simon Peter]

~ So what errors are acceptable then?

Well whatever they are, the same standard should be applied.

In other words, if C Peter Wagner - and his fans - are allowed to encourage us to discern/judge brothers with 'demonic' spirits, then either:


1. Christians are also free to discern/judge Wagner et al

or

2. Wagner should not encourage people to discern/judge




peace,
Simon

 

[Ajax 777]

~ So what errors are acceptable then?

How about those that DON'T point away from the truth, the gospel of Jesus Christ, and add to/take away from the word of God?

One can push teachers of demonic doctrines like cessationism which clearly teaches a different Jesus than that of the Bible, or calvinism which is named after a guy whose profession of faith is that he was baptized when a baby by a priest (of an apostate religion which he railed against) and call them Christian brothers, invite them into there congregations and celebrate when they rant against other Christians, who believe the entirety of the Gospel but make a few errors.

Where in this thread do you see or hear anyone doing any of those things?

~ Honestly, sometimes I consider that if I was not a Christian, I would not want to be one by the rancor and hatred that other Christians display towards each other...

That's fine; just make sure you're not one of those you describe in this.

~ Continue to discuss amongst yourselves...

Oh, it's an open discussion. Feel free to participate.

 

[Tenebrae]

Come on Oscarr, C. Peter Wagner...really?

This is the same guy who failed to recognise a wolf in a child's sheep costume, namely Todd Bentley!

Wagner commissioned Bentley on stage at the height of the 'Lakeland revival', showering him with praise and prophecy, meanwhile Bentley was in adulterous relationship, getting drunk, and lying about a lot of things. Within a week or so, it all fell apart and Bentley was exposed as a sham.

If Wagner failed to even see through Bentley - that anyone with a fleas worth of discernment could see through - why on earth should I trust him with a book on discernment?

peace,
Simon

Well said

 

[tturt]

If this was your son, your dad, good friend, I sincerely doubt that our words, tone, etc. would be the same. How about the Scripture about Loving Yahweh and loving others - there's no exception clause. I sure don't find it easy to extend to some. Someone else posted this several weeks ago and I've forgotten the user name but it really hit me - there's nothing in Scripture that we're suppose to do that we can't do with Yahweh's help.-

 

[Blueberrymuffin09]

yep totally agree Tturt....I totally agree. But it is like beating a dead horse.

 

[Simon Peter]

If this was your son, your dad, good friend, I sincerely doubt that our words, tone, etc. would be the same. How about the Scripture about Loving Yahweh and loving others - there's no exception clause. I sure don't find it easy to extend to some. But there's nothing in Scripture that we're suppose to do that we can't do with Yahweh's help.

So are you saying that Wagner should not have written a book encouraging people to discern and judge other Christians?

Perhaps Wagner should apologise for accusing Christians of having a religious spirit.


peace,
Simon

 

[Blueberrymuffin09]

who cares? he is still your brother in the Lord? where is the love?

 

[Biblicist]

Oscarr,

Even though religious spirits certainly operate within all denominational systems be they Full Gospel or cessationist, I would tend to say that most of their influence relates to the distortion and promotion of false doctrine and certainly with regard to control over others.

One of the problems that we have within many Full Gospel congregations is that we do not see enough people moving within their areas of the Manifestation of discernment let alone with enough people who have a good grasp of the Word of God particularly as it relates to the things of the Spirit.

With regard to Wagner, I would have to add my voice by saying that I tend to him as promoting many false doctrines and I would not be surprised to discover that he has been listening to a number of false religious spirits.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Come on Oscarr, C. Peter Wagner...really?

This is the same guy who failed to recognise a wolf in a child's sheep costume, namely Todd Bentley!

Wagner commissioned Bentley on stage at the height of the 'Lakeland revival', showering him with praise and prophecy, meanwhile Bentley was in adulterous relationship, getting drunk, and lying about a lot of things. Within a week or so, it all fell apart and Bentley was exposed as a sham.

If Wagner failed to even see through Bentley - that anyone with a fleas worth of discernment could see through - why on earth should I trust him with a book on discernment?

peace,
Simon

No one is perfect. Even the best of us have faults and shortcomings.

C Peter Wagner is responsible for thousands of conversions to Christ and deliverances from demons. Is Satan divided against himself? If Dr Wagner is not false, it must mean that Satan has become converted to Christ, because he has inspired a man to teach and disciple many good believers who have gone out and had successful ministries for Christ.

So he has endorsed someone who has been discredited. So What? This is a minor issue when compared to the thousands of testimonies of the power of God working through his teaching.

Of course, if you are convinced that Dr Wagner is false, you will only consider evidence of that, and will ignore those thousands of examples of conversions, and sound Christian ministries that have resulted from his teaching and mentoring of his students, and from the teaching in his books.

He works from a local church, as well as the Fuller Theological Seminary, where his work is reviewed by Christ-centred peers. He is under authority of the ruling council of the seminary.


By the way, were you at the Lakeland Revival meeting where these things occurred? Or did you get your information second hand?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Oh, I can debate in here, sir. Calvary Chapel is a Charismatic faith.
I described teachers who take Charisma to excess, ergo "Charismaniacal."
I did NOT say all Charismatics are Charismaniacs, nor have you any just basis for inferring thus.

I'll speak the truth God lays on my heart to speak, and you can save your warning.

What you have to look at when you criticise Charismatics is their fruit in terms of conversions to Christ, true repentance, and development to being sound church members, working for the Lord. If a Charismatic church, which you consider excessive is producing real converts and ministries that are effective for Christ, shouldn't you be look at those, instead of criticising manifestations, which may not be what you think should exist? And who are you to dictate to God how He decides to move in a church? If He decides to have people falling down, dancing, climbing the walls, shouting praises, speaking in tongues, etc., then who are we to criticise?

Some of these very churches that you are criticising are growing at phenominal rates with a steady stream of true conversions to Christ, resulting in more and more stable church members. I would say that puts them above criticism from people who may not be achieving the same results.

We have to be careful that we don't put down churches that God is supporting, because we might find that we are criticising God Himself.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Indeed.

As with all things, by their fruit you shall know them.
This is why I hate error...it ensnares precious souls
to things that lie in wait to devour them in the darkness,
but they don't even see how quickly their hearts put
its worth above the souls of their brethren for whom Christ also died.

All praise to the Lord Jesus Christ that there is none His arm cannot save,
and that to the uttermost.

Exactly. By their fruit you shall know them. I know Dr Wagner by the thousands of conversions to Christ, people delivered and healed under his ministry, and the hundreds of good, sound Christian ministries around the world that have been established because of his mentorship.

Can you prove that you are not in error yourself?