Religious Spirits

[murjahel]

The 'angels' in chapters 2 and 3 of Revelation are not evil spirits who have taken over the leader of the churches...

No ! Look at the context, and let the Bible interpret the 'angels', it does tell who they are...

Revelation 1:16. And He had in His right hand seven stars;
and out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword;
and His countenance was as the sun shineth in His strength.

"Seven stars" are the seven angels of the churches (Revelation 1:20).
2:1 the angel of the church of Ephesus
2:8 the angel of the church of Smyrna
2:12 the angel of the church in Pergamos
2:18 the angel of the church in Thyatira
3:1 the angel of the church in Sardis
3:7 the angel of the church in Philadelphia
3:14 the angel of the church of the Laodiceans

These are the seven angels also found described in Ezekiel chapter 9. These angels have been given the guardianship of the church, and have watched over the churches and the church ages... In the last days they are to be given the judgment of the hypocrites, false prophets, and tares of the church...

Matthew 13:38-43
"The field is the world, the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world (age); and the reapers are the ANGELS. ... in the end of the world (age). The Son of Man shall send forth His ANGELS, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity. And shall cast them into a furnace of fire; there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father, Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

Revelation 1:20. The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in My right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches;

These seven stars are still in the right hand of Jesus, and have been in His authority and power for the ages.

The right hand of authority and blessing, indicating that Jesus has given authority to these seven angels, and blesses them...

They are not evil spirits, but good angelic spirits, still in the 'hand' of the Lord, still protecting the saints, doing the bidding of the Lord...

These seven "stars" are not "stars" in the sense of burning masses of neuter fire... for it is not "astron" usually translated and meaning "star", but rather this is a masculine form, "astare" meaning a masculine "strong one..."

These ‘seven stars’ are seven guardian angels of the church ages, who rule over many other guardian angels that watch the particular churches, and the saints within those churches of believers.

Rev. 1:20 (continued)
and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches..

In the Greek, the word for "church" is "ecclesia." This word means "the called out ones." The church is a group of people who have been "called out" from the world, to be -God's people,-chosen ones,-people who are commissioned of God. The purpose of the church is to replace the work that Israel had been given by God. Israel had been "cut off." The church has been "grafted in." Israel had been chosen to be the evangelists of the world, but they chose to feel that they were the select group to contain all the blessings of God. Since they tried to retain God only for themselves, and to refuse to evangelize other nations, and finally to reject Jesus Christ--they were "cut off." In Romans 11:11-36, a warning is given to the church. The blessings of the church are conditional. The importance of the church, in this age, is of great magnitude.

John is about to be shown seven particular churches, and given revelation for them, letters are to be sent to these local churches with these literally true messages.

Along with such literal truth, there is another fulfillment, for these seven churches, represent the seven church ages, between the Lord’s ascension, and the Lord’s rapture of the church.

Each age has seen all seven churches within it, but each age has had one of the seven to be the predominant one.

In the first church age, most churches were like Ephesus,
in the second church age most were like unto Smyrna...
and so on, through all the church ages.

In the last church age, most will be like unto Laodicea.

There are protective angels, who watch over these particular churches, and there are angels who watch over each church age... They are 'ministering spirits...'

Jesus identifies them as good angels under the direction of Jesus.

 

[gratefulgrace]

So in Rev, John wrote to seven churches but specifically to the angel (demon/ religious spirit/ principality) who had taken up the chief seat (person) at those churches. John told the relgious spirits, "Let those you have and ear to hear, hear what the Spirit says to the churches". That is what we need to do. That is what I am trying to do. So hear what the Spirit has to say, and quite listening to those religious spirits that are changing the topic!


I have to agree K@K that I agree with Murjahel on this one. I do not believe for a minute that the passage supports the angels being demons. The angels are addressed by God to to give a message of correcting what was wrong in the church. This would definitely not be a function of a demon, fallen angel, or principality. Why would God use a demon to report his message? it is ludicrous. That said I do believe we battle as the Bible clearly teaches against spiritual entities in high places. gg

 

[K2K]

So in Rev, John wrote to seven churches but specifically to the angel (demon/ religious spirit/ principality) who had taken up the chief seat (person) at those churches. John told the relgious spirits, "Let those you have and ear to hear, hear what the Spirit says to the churches". That is what we need to do. That is what I am trying to do. So hear what the Spirit has to say, and quite listening to those religious spirits that are changing the topic!


I have to agree K@K that I agree with Murjahel on this one. I do not believe for a minute that the passage supports the angels being demons. The angels are addressed by God to to give a message of correcting what was wrong in the church. This would definitely not be a function of a demon, fallen angel, or principality. Why would God use a demon to report his message? it is ludicrous. That said I do believe we battle as the Bible clearly teaches against spiritual entities in high places. gg

The Lord is King of kings. That means all kings. That means powers and principalities. So God gives instructions--- period. So indeed the angels at the church was given instruction, but if those angels were listening to the Lord, why then did the instructions have to be written?

The basic instruction to all the angels was, "To let those who have and ear to hear, hear what the Spirit has to say to the churches. The church are those choosen by God, so it would not make sense to tell the church to let those who have an ear, hear what the Spirit says to the church.

The message is for the church also, but is specfically written "to the angel" at those churches.

The angels that serve the Lord don't have to be told to let those who can hear, hear what the Spirit has to say to them (then church). Angels that serve the Lord listen to the Spirit of God themselves, and don't have to have letter written to them with instructions.

Angels that serve the Lord have not fallen!! "To the angel of the church in Ephesus write... remember from where you have fallen

Angels that serve the Lord may go to and from earth but they do not dwell on earth but in heaven. That is their home. "To the angel of the church in Pergamum write:... I know where you dwell.

Angels that serve the Lord are not dead!! "To the angel of the church in Sardis wirte: I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead."

How is it that someone would not understand that if they start doing something for the Lord that they will not come under attack. If there are religious spirits, where do they operate? Religious spirits do not go to bars, the go to churches, that is why they are called religious spirits. And religious spirits like to take up chief seats if possible. They are powers and principalities after all. So religious spirits try to take charge in churches. And what is a chief seat at a church as far as a spirit is concerned.

For a religious spirit to get control, they have to prevent people from turning to and listening to the Lord, otherwise they would be exposed. So naturally they do their best to prevent the church from listening to what the Holy Spirit has to say to the church. So they make it about traditions, about works, and get people to lean on their own understanding instead of listen to the Lord of lords, and King of kings.

Their are different types of demons. Some go after the drunk in the bar. Some go after the lonesome person looking for love, to prevert them sexually. Some go after the poor person to get them to steal. Religious spirits go after the those in the church, and specifially target those in positions of authority. Those not listening to the Spirit of God and instead are leaning upon their own understanding are especially vurable to religious spirits which do operate in the churches.

This should be obvious, isn't it? Or what do you think religious spirits do, and where do you think they operate? We battle with powers and principalites, and 'religious spirits' that operate inside religion - Your church building. They need to be told to let people listen to what the Spirit has to say, and as for the church, who the message was for also, we need to listen to the Holy Spirit, least we find out that by leaning upon our own understanding we missed the battle going on around us.

If you are unaware of the battle with powers and principalities (including religous spirits who operate inside the church) are you winning the battle, or have you lost?


I sometime find it amazing how we tend to think that religious spirits attack the other guy and the other church, but never our church or us. Isn't that really naive of us?

 

[Faulty]

Or they could just be the 'messengers' of the churches, the 'pastors'.

Since when does God write letters to angels? Last time I checked, it was angels going back and forth between God and man delivering messages.

When read in the plain sense of 'pastors', there is no more need to spiritualize the text in what "fallen" and "abide" means, because the plain sense makes sense.

 

[Faulty]

For anyone that is really concerned, google new apostolic reformation movement, look at the pro sites and look at the sites opposed and talk to people who have been involved in the movement. If anyone wants info, feel free to message me

I recommend the book "Kingdom Lost" by Mark Vrankovich

And for anyone that would ask why a non christian would care.

1. I hate seeing a group of people make avoidable mistakes

2. I've met and been involved with at least 4-5 families who have permanently left the christian church as a result of their involvement in the New Apostolic reformation. And these arent people who have gone to other churches these are people who have said "If that was god, I want no part of him", they are hurt and wounded people. If I was a christian I would be completely appalled by this.

3. Christians are supposed to have a higher standard and better way of going things than us non christians. I work in mental health, and really object to the fact that at least 25-40% of my client base has been refered to me as a result of their experiences of NAR based churches

This NAR organization frequently makes two claims (just focusing on two of many):

1. To be part of Joel's army
2. To reclaim the world by taking over the '7 mountains' of society

This is very telling since Joel's army is a description of the demonic locusts in Revelation 9, and concerning the '7 mountains', it is the great prostitute, the false church, in Revelation 17 who rides the beast whose seven heads are seven mountains.

As John says, this calls for wisdom, "This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated" Rev 17:9

 

[murjahel]

Fallen angels are fallen because they chose to disobey... they would not carry a message from Jesus without changing it to all lies... they are liars like their 'father, the devil' is ...

Jesus does not dictate letters to fallen, evil beings to tell the church what to do...

in the passage 'to the angel... thou art fallen'
or
'to the angel... thou are dead'...
that is the church that is spoken of as having some 'fallen' and some 'dead' ... not the angel

can you imagine attending one of those churches, and a fallen angel shows up and says,
"I have a message from Jesus, sit down and listen..."
and then relates from Jesus, (he tells us)
'I know thy works... etc etc"... and then 'he that hath ears to hear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches...'
LOL

I would not want to attend a church led by a fallen angel, evil spirit... and Jesus would not use one for a messenger... LOL

if one came here with a message for us at this board,
I would, and hope you would too, rebuke it...
and not take its words as being from Jesus...

I guess there are some people that if a demon told them Jesus had sent him (the demon) with a message for them, they would believe the demon....
we need to pray for those people​

 

[K2K]

The 'angels' in chapters 2 and 3 of Revelation are not evil spirits who have taken over the leader of the churches...

No ! Look at the context, and let the Bible interpret the 'angels', it does tell who they are...

Revelation 1:16. And He had in His right hand seven stars;
and out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword;
and His countenance was as the sun shineth in His strength.

"Seven stars" are the seven angels of the churches (Revelation 1:20).
2:1 the angel of the church of Ephesus
2:8 the angel of the church of Smyrna
2:12 the angel of the church in Pergamos
2:18 the angel of the church in Thyatira
3:1 the angel of the church in Sardis
3:7 the angel of the church in Philadelphia
3:14 the angel of the church of the Laodiceans

.

Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia:... from Him who is and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne.... To the angel of the church in Ephesus... and to the angel

So what do you think, the seven Spirits who are before His throne had John write to themselves? Does an omni-present God have to write to the angels that hear from Him? Do you think that just because the seven stars are angels on the churches that are held in His hand, that they can't be demonic angels? Where would you expect to see Religious spirits? What do you think the Chief Priest during Jesus time represented? Who gives authority?


Clearly the seven Spirits before the throne from whom the writing was from were not the same spirits (angels) to whom the writing was to. Just because the seven angels, like the seven churches, were in His hand, does not mean that they, like the chruches, were listening to the Lord! The Lord is King of kings, and Lord or Lords, but that doesn't mean that all powers and principalities know Him, but just that He Lord's over them and is still the King. Servants don't stay in the house forever.

Gabriel said he stood before God, these angels can not make the same claim!! They are fallen (Rev 2:5), they dwell where Satan's throne is instead of in heaven (Rev 2:13), they have a name that they are alive but are dead (Rev 3:1), and so the message was to the lampstands (the churches) as well the seven stars (the angel at the churches).

The seven angels to whom the writing was addressed did not listen to the Spirit of God who is omni-present. That is why the letter had to be address to the angels at the church.

Everyone at the church, needed to see that there was a spirit at their church that was not listening to the Lord. Indeed, the letters should have brought this fact clearly to the attention of those people in those churches, that neither they nor the angel at the church were listing to the Spirit of God like they should be doing. Indeed, the angel at the churches were preventing the church from hearing what the Spirit has to say to the churches!!!


A religious spirit is what we call a fallen angel that would be making it about religious tradtions, about works, and about leaning on your own understanding, instead of listening to what the Spirit of God has to say. They (religious spirits) might encourage you to make the Bible and idol. They might get you to believe that studying the Bible gives a person salvations. They might get a person to thinking the Bible heals. They may try to convince people that they are saved by religious acts performed, like eating a cracker, so we don't have to listen to the voice of the Lord!

Religious spirits, like all angels, are ministering spirits, but in their case, they are minsitering works (studying your Bible, help out at church) and traditions (light candles, drink grape juice) instead of promoting a personal relationship with the Lord, which requires communiction (talking back and forth) with the Lord via the Spirit. [Please note: I am not against traditions and people should help out at church and read their Bible, do that all because you are hearing the Lord, not instead of hearing the Lord]

This is not hard to understand, but it might be hard to accept that religious spirits are working in your church and that they are trying to actualy influence you!!



We all have a battle with powers and principalites. The trick to winning the battle is turing to the Lord and hearing what He has to say. He will point out the tricks of the enemy. He will explain the Scriptures to you.

You won't wind up thinking that the Seven Spirits that stand in front of His throne, who were included as being those who John wrote on behalf of, are the same type of spirits (angels) to whom John wrote to.

Every thing is held together by His hands, but that does not mean that everything being held in His hand is listening to and trying to serve Him.

The Christian churches, and even the religious spirits at the churches might mention something about Jesus Christ, but that doesn't mean they listen to Him, and they maybe and probably are trying to prevent you from believing you can listen to what the Spirit of God has to say.


(Rev 3) To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:... because you say, "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing," and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind, and naked, I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire...

Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him, and will dine with him, and he with Me. He who over comes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne.

 

[Tobias]

Jesus told Peter "Get thee behind me Satan..."

I don't see the distinct lines between man and angels that most Christians see. Angels are just beings that desire to obey God and carry His messages to those in need; very similar to what many of us also wish to do. Peter fell into the "satan" side of things when he said something which tempted Jesus to not do what He knew He was supposed to do. "Angel" or "Devil", are options we all are given to choose from, depending on whether we yield to God or not.

We have come to understand angels according to their pagan origins in both Greek and Persian pagan religions. Beings of great splendor with wings... are nowhere to be found in the Old Testament. Back then they simply appeared as men.

But if you consider that these beings are not God Himself (just as we also are not), but deliver messages and do things in His name; how then are they so different from us? When operating in one of the gifts of the Spirit I too can give a message from the Lord, or work a miracle on His behalf. Not of myself, but only if He chooses to use me in such a way.

The Greek word "angel" simply means "messenger." I am God's messenger (at times) (...probably less times than I should be). Why would that not make me His "angel"? I am certainly not an "angel" over any church, but if we use the word "angel" as a job description rather than a spiritual species designation, then I don't see a problem.

In which case the letters in Revelation were written to men.

 

[Biblicist]

Oscarr (# 54),
Originally Posted by Biblicist
Oscarr,
With regard to Wagner, I would have to add my voice by saying that I tend to him as promoting many false doctrines and I would not be surprised to discover that he has been listening to a number of false religious spirits.
What false doctrines are those?

I have read quite a number of his most significant books on a range of topics and I have not seen any doctrines that would contradict the Scriptures.

Oscarr, somewhat of a late response.

Even though I would be reticent with saying that he is a false believer, his teachings that support his erroneous New Apostolic Renewal were certainly not birthed from within the Scriptures nor from the Spirit of God. Leaving aside any question regarding his salvation, his teachings have heavily and negatively affected the broader Church and I would place him high on my list of recent ministries who have promoted heretical and humanistic teachings along with Schuler and Hybels and with Wagners predecessors from the Latter-Rain movement.

I have no real knowledge of the number of salvations that have occurred directly under his ministry but undoubtedly it can be easy for any ‘celebrity’ to at least convince enough people to give some nominal acknowledgement of Jesus as someone who is a good teacher; though I will admit I could be a bit harsh on him at this point but as an individual I am of the opinion that his ministry has produced more harm than good and that he is best kept at arms length.

We should remember that much the same arguments were given to support Todd Bentley when his lifestyle began to become known to us and look how his life turned out. Much the same can be said for Marjoe Gortner who was a self confessed and willing charlatan from day one. And as for Bentley’s supposed numerous healings – can anyone provide an example of any real healings or were they all a concoction between Bentley and a rather gullible God TV Channel?

With regard to Wagner, I recognise that he and his associates were a bit quick to try and add this celebrity to their ranks which only shows how a group of boys who are so full of their own self importance can be very easily be made to look silly in front of the whole world. Sadly, there are still many NAR proponents who are trying to impose Bentley upon us and to their shame!

 

[K2K]

Fallen angels are fallen because they chose to disobey... they would not carry a message from Jesus without changing it to all lies... they are liars like their 'father, the devil' is ...​

Jesus does not dictate letters to fallen, evil beings to tell the church what to do...​

in the passage 'to the angel... thou art fallen'
or
'to the angel... thou are dead'...
that is the church that is spoken of as having some 'fallen' and some 'dead' ... not the angel​

can you imagine attending one of those churches, and a fallen angel shows up and says,
"I have a message from Jesus, sit down and listen..."
and then relates from Jesus, (he tells us)
'I know thy works... etc etc"... and then 'he that hath ears to hear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches...'
LOL​

I would not want to attend a church led by a fallen angel, evil spirit... and Jesus would not use one for a messenger... LOL​

if one came here with a message for us at this board,
I would, and hope you would too, rebuke it...
and not take its words as being from Jesus...​

I guess there are some people that if a demon told them Jesus had sent him (the demon) with a message for them, they would believe the demon.... ​

we need to pray for those people​

The Spirit of God is everywhere and we are supposed to listen to Him!! If you or an angel is not hearing from Him regularly, it is because you have choosen not to. You are disobedient. An angel surely knows this better than you, but you have no excuss either.

For this is a rebellious people, false sons, Sons who refuse to listen to the instructions of the Lord. (Is 30:9)

Your ears will hear a word behind you, " This is the way, walk in it, " whenever you turn to the right or to the left. (Is 30:21)

Because we are in the flesh, we might not pick the Lord up everytime we turn to the right of left at this time, but that is how the angels in heaven opperate. (Have you not heard them ministering to you so that you have noticed that) That is not how the angels at the seven churches opperated.

The angels were written to because they were not listen to the Spirit of God!!!

The letters were address to them specifically, yet the letters were also for the churches also. Adam and Eve fell and so did 1/3 of the angels in heaven. Those angels (demons) have become familiar spirits. We listen to them much more than we know, but they hide that so we are rarely aware of when familiar spirits are talking to us.

We find religious spirits are at churches, but not everyone. Some seem to be completely unaware of the battle. That was a main reason for having John write to the churches.

Now concerning this statement:

"can you imagine attending one of those churches, and a fallen angel shows up and says,
"I have a message from Jesus, sit down and listen..."
and then relates from Jesus, ​

Have you never checked the spirits and found that a spirit of false prophecy was talking to you?​

1 Jn 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God.​

Notice, that to use this test you must be able to hear with your spiritual ears. I have suddenly heard a spiritual voice start talking to me, and asked it to tell me 'Jesus Christ has come in the flesh', only to be told, 'I can't tell you that."​

It amazes me when that happens. Sometimes the voice has just instantly stopped and vanished. Yet if someone read the Scriptures and does listen and put the Scritpures into practice in their life, are they going to be able to discern between spirits. They don't even know when a spirit is talking to them, much less have the ability to discern between good and evil spirits!!​

So is someone writes, "Can you imagine... a fallen angel shows up and says" isn't that because they are not hearing with their spiritual ears, so can not possibly be discerning between spirits.​

Heb 5 Concerning Him we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God... But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.​

We battle with powers and principalities. If you are not hearing with your spiritual ears, you are not aware of what is going on in the spiritual world around you. You are not able to discern good from evil. You don't have any idea when spirits are ministering you, so you can't imagine having a fallen angel talking to you, but it is happening!! You just don't understand when, and how!!!​

The way to get out of that is to start seeking the voice of the Lord. He is faithful, and the Spirit of God will guide you into all truth. There is a battle with powers and principalities. And just like there was a chief priest and Pharisees during Jesus time, there are Religious spirits who have taken up positions in Christian churches today. You might want to make sure they aren't taking up positions in you. You want to make it about hearing what the Spirit of God has to say, and test the spirits just like John wrote to do. You test the spirits like John wrote, because you sometimes find a spirit of false prophecy trying to talk to you.​

Ps A spirit of false prophecy and a religious spirit tend to work differently. Religious spirits are deaf dump spirits that want you living by traditions, works, and your understanding of the Scriptures. They try to prevent you from ever seeking after the voice of the Lord, and they go after the chief seats. They are the type of angels written to in Revelation.​

Spirits of false prophecy generally come after those that hear and try to hear from the Lord. 1 Jn was written to those that could hear with their spiritual ears. If you can hear, a spirit of false prophecy is more effective against you. If you don't spend much time seeking the voice of the Lord a religious spirit would be more effective against you. If you have other weakness in your life, there are other demonic angels that will minister to you and tempt you. So ask the Lord to show you what is going on, then listen and consider what you hear. With practice you get better at discerning between good and evil spirits.​

 

[Biblicist]

Oscarr (# 54),

Originally Posted by Biblicist

Oscarr,

With regard to Wagner, I would have to add my voice by saying that I tend to him as promoting many false doctrines and I would not be surprised to discover that he has been listening to a number of false religious spirits.

What false doctrines are those?
I have read quite a number of his most significant books on a range of topics and I have not seen any doctrines that would contradict the Scriptures.

Oscarr, somewhat of a late response.

Even though I would be reticent with saying that he is a false believer, his teachings that support his erroneous New Apostolic Renewal were certainly not birthed from within the Scriptures nor from the Spirit of God. Leaving aside any question regarding his salvation, his teachings have heavily and negatively affected the broader Church and I would place him high on my list of recent ministries who have promoted heretical and humanistic teachings along with Schuler and Hybels and with Wagners predecessors from the Latter-Rain movement.

I have no real knowledge of the number of salvations that have occurred directly under his ministry but undoubtedly it can be easy for any ‘celebrity’ to at least convince enough people to give some nominal acknowledgement of Jesus as someone who is a good teacher; though I will admit I could be a bit harsh on him at this point but as an individual I am of the opinion that his ministry has produced more harm than good and that he is best kept at arms length.

We should remember that much the same arguments were given to support Todd Bentley when his lifestyle began to become known to us and look how his life turned out. Much the same can be said for Marjoe Gortner who was a self confessed and willing charlatan from day one. And as for Bentley’s supposed numerous healings – can anyone provide an example of any real healings or were they all a concoction between Bentley and a rather gullible God TV Channel?

With regard to Wagner, I recognise that he and his associates were a bit quick to try and add this celebrity to their ranks which only shows how a group of boys who are so full of their own self importance can be very easily be made to look silly in front of the whole world. Sadly, there are still many NAR proponents who are trying to impose Bentley upon us and to their shame!

 

[K2K]

Or they could just be the 'messengers' of the churches, the 'pastors'.

Since when does God write letters to angels? Last time I checked, it was angels going back and forth between God and man delivering messages.

When read in the plain sense of 'pastors', there is no more need to spiritualize the text in what "fallen" and "abide" means, because the plain sense makes sense.

Clearly, because is was a letter, it was delivered in a physical sense, and probably to a leader at the church. So we might just figure "angel" was the name John was using for the leader/ pastor at the church. Is that how John refered to a leader/ pastor? It seems to me that John used the word elder, when referring to what we might call the pastor. And the other writers of the books of the New Testament seem to use "angel" to represent spiritual being that serve the Lord. I can't come up with something otherwise.

Heb 1:7 And of angels He says, "Who makes His angels winds, and His ministers a flame of fire" [ref Ps 104:4]

and Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation? [ref Ps 103:20]

Of course those angels hear from the Lord and don't need to have a letter written to them. So I can understand how someone would just figure it must then refer to a person, because angels that serve the Lord, can do so by just hearing from Him. That is a reasonable and simple conslusion, and is certainly not spiritualizing it.

Still Revelation is nothing if not spiritual in context. Is there a book in the Bible more spiritual in context the the Book of Revelation?

Indeed the obvious conclusion to each church was that they needed to listen to what the Spirit of God has to say. Can we just not spiritualize that?

I can walk around all day long, opperating in my fleshy physical world, and never listen with my spiritual ear to what the Spirit has to say to me. That is the result of taking the approach suggested.

As for me, I try to take time to hear from the Spirit of God through out the day, and usually do about a dozen times a day. In the process I have found out that the Spirit of God is not the only spirit out there. I also find out that these spirits, that I ignore most of the day, influence me whether I realize they are or not. Not listening with my spiritual ears is like the proverbial Ostrich that puts it's head in the sand, thinking that makes the danger go away.

I can even attend church and not listen with my spiritual ears. I find it easier to hear at church than I do at other places, and easiest to hear while the praise and worship in going on. Still I find that the Spirit of God is not the only spirit I can pick up there. When I choose to listen and see with my spiritual eyes, I sometimes am amazed at what can be picked up.

It is not uncommon at all to see and hear from angels. And I also found out that not all the angels there necessarily are listening to and getting instructions from the Lord.

In general, I like Charismatic churches, because it is easier to find people there that also can see and hear with their spiritual eyes and ears. As people, we don't see and hear all that well, but it's still nice to find other people who know what I am talking about. With them I can hold a conversations about spiritual matters. Yet not all that attend can or do hear very much with their spiritual ears.

We all know in part, so I don't expect to know everything. That should make exchanging information more worthwhile. I also don't expect people to just believe me because I said it. Please take whatever I said to the Lord and ask Him yourself. Yet if a person can't hear with their spiritual ears, what are they going to do? Lean on their own understanding I guess. And since the don't use their spiritual eyes and ears, their conclusion would be of a non-spiritual understanding.

We do not battle with flesh and blood, but with powers and principalities. So shouldn't we at least pay attention with our spiritual eyes and ears? We were talking about religious spirits. It's pretty hard to discuss that and not spiritualize it.

I guess you'd have to conclude that angels are not spirits but rather men. So there are not invisable spiritual being that could ever influence you. Then the powers and principaliteis would have to be men, and that brings us back to the problem of battling with men.

I don't want to battle with men, but I would like my fellow men to turn to the Spirit of God and listen to what He has to say. He might give you revelation. You might find out that you are indeed battling with power and principalities (spirits) and religious spirits are indeed spirits that like to take the chief seats in the synagogue (your church). They need to be told to let those that have and ear to hear, hear what the Spirit has to say to the churches.

So who am a writing to really? The church, or the spirit (angel) trying to keep those that have an ear to hear, from hearing what the Spirit has to say.

I like the people, and wish they would try listening to the Lord more. Let's get spiritual!

 

[murjahel]

The Book of Revelation is filled with 'figures of speech'...​

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and yet is very understandable... the word 'seven' is used figuratively many times... seven eyes, seven spirits' is one example..​

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the seven spirits is type for the ONE Holy Spirit which has sevenfold graces... look at some of the scholars interpretations​

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Heavenly Throne, The THE HEAVENLY THRONE​

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"And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
3And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald .
. . 5And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God" (Rev. 4:2-3, 5).

The first thing John saw in heaven was the throne of God, the Father, who was to look upon "like a jasper and a sardine stone." The jasper stone according to Pliny is semi-transparent.
In Rev. 21:11 the light of the New Jerusalem is said to appear "like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal." The sardine stone is one of red color. John saw a rainbow circling the throne which was green in color like an emerald. Cf. Rev 10:1; Gen. 9:13; Ezek. 1:28.
This throne is the center of all the activity of the book. It is the one seen throughout the book down to 21:22 - 22:5 where it is associated with the throne of the Lamb. It is literal as much as the door is literal. The same things that prove one is literal will prove that the other is also literal. Some cannot conceive of God sitting on a real throne, but there is no such thing as a spiritual throne. We have no ground at all for making these scenes symbolic or unreal, and not as they were actually seen by John. Our misconception of things cannot disprove their existence.
If saints without their bodies can be clothed and exist in spirit form and be confined to a literal place and if spirits can be confined to literal places as tartarus (2 Pet. 2:4; Jude 6-7), hades (Lk. 16:19-31; Rev. 20:11-15), the altar in heaven (Rev. 6:9-11), the abyss (Rev. 9:1-21; 20:1-3), etc., it seems also reasonable and certainly comprehensible that God as Spirit could sit on a literal throne as He is seen doing many times, Isa.6:1; Jn. 5:37; Acts 7:55; etc.

If God could create literal thrones, heavens, planets, etc., it seems He should be able to sit on or in any of them He desires.
The revelation of God in this book disproves the idea that men will never see the Father face to face. John saw Him several times in these visions and it is expressly stated that men shall "see his face" in the New Earth, Rev. 21:3; 22:4.
The word "throne" is used 173 times in both Testaments and generally always of a literal throne. It is used over forty times in Revelation and always of a literal throne as is clear in the passages themselves. The plain statements concerning the throne in this book prove it to be more than mere sovereignty or power; e.g., Rev. 3:21; 22:1-5.

In Rev. 4:5 lightnings, thunderings, and voices proceed from the throne andseven "lamps of fire" burn before the throne, which symbolize the Holy Spirit.
Dake Topical Index.
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the seven Spirits which are before his throne -- The oldest manuscripts omit "are."

before -- literally, "in the presence of." The Holy Spirit in His sevenfold (that is, perfect, complete, and universal) energy. Corresponding to "the seven churches." One in His own essence, manifold in His gracious influences. The seven eyes resting on the stone laid by Jehovah (Rev. 5:6). Four is the number of the creature world (compare the fourfold cherubim); seven the number of God's revelation in the world.

A Commentary: Critical, Experimental, and Practical on the Old and New Testaments.
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seven eyes . . . the seven Spirits . . . sent forth -- So one oldest manuscript, A. But B reads, "being sent forth." As the seven lamps before the throne represent the Spirit of God immanent in the Godhead, so the seven eyes of the Lamb represent the same sevenfold Spirit profluent from the incarnate Redeemer in His world-wide energy. The Greek for "sent forth," apostellomena, or else apestalmenoi, is akin to the term "apostle," reminding us of the Spirit-impelled labors of Christ's apostles and minister throughout the world: if the present tense be read, as seems best, the idea will be that of those labors continually going on unto the end. "Eyes" symbolize His all-watchful and wise providence for His Church, and against her foes.

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A Commentary: Critical, Experimental, and Practical on the Old and New Testaments.
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The Spirit is designated by The seven Spirits (τῶν ἑπτὰ πνευμάτων)
Paul nowhere joins the Spirit with the Father and the Son in his opening salutations. The nearest approach is 2 Corinthians 13:13. The reference is not to the seven principal angels (8:2). These could not be properly spoken of as the source of grace and peace; nor be associated with the Father and the Son; nor take precedence of the Son, as is the case here. Besides, angels are never called spirits in this book.

With the expression compare 4:5, the seven lamps of fire, "which are the seven Spirits of God:" 3:1, where Jesus is said to have "the seven Spirits of God."
Thus the seven Spirits belong to the Son as well as to the Father (see John 15:26).
The prototype of John's expression is found in the vision of Zechariah, where the Messiah is prefigured as a stone with seven eyes, "the eyes of the Lord, which run to and fro through the whole earth" (Zechariah 3:9; 4:10).
Compare also the same prophet's vision of the seven-branched candlestick (4:2).
Hence the Holy Spirit is called the Seven Spirits; the perfect, mystical number seven indicating unity through diversity (1 Corinthians 12:4). Not the sevenfold gifts of the Spirit are meant, but the divine Personality who imparts them; the one Spirit under the diverse manifestations.
Richard of St. Victor (cited by Trench, "Seven Churches") says: "And from the seven Spirits, that is, from the sevenfold Spirit, which indeed is simple in nature, sevenfold in grace."

Word Studies in the New Testament.​

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[murjahel]

In Revelation 4 and 5 we see the saints around the throne, on rapture day, and rejoicing in the Lamb... We see the Father on the throne, the Lamb (Jesus) is seen in type as having seven horns and seven eyes, and the Holy Spirit is seen as 'seven spirits' there...

No demons or fallen angels are there... but the Trinity is seen in type, this is a vision, it had not happened yet... and so there are symbolic representations seen for the Trinity...

The seven is not seven titles of the Spirit, for there are more titles than this that are applied to the Spirit.

Note what Dake says:
Since the Lamb has the seven horns and seven eyes, since we know there is but one Holy Spirit (Eph. 4:4-6), and since the Lamb is a symbol of Christ, the seven lamps of fire (Rev. 4:5), the seven horns, and seven eyes are all symbolic of the one Holy Spirit and can only denote His fullness and power upon the Lamb and before the throne (Jn. 3:34; Isa. 11:2; 42:1-7; 61:1-2; Acts 10:38).
Dake's Annotated Reference Bible.

 

[Simon Peter]

Is is because religious spirits do not want the topic discussed, so they have influenced the thread so as to change the topic?

LOL

I vote this as the most ironic statement on the thread.


Seriously K2K, if you want to discuss whether the angels of the seven churches were demons, start a new thread.

peace,
Simon

 

[K2K]

In Rev. 4:5 lightnings, thunderings, and voices proceed from the throne andseven "lamps of fire" burn before the throne, which symbolize the Holy Spirit.
Dake Topical Index.​

the seven Spirits which are before his throne -- The oldest manuscripts omit "are."

before -- literally, "in the presence of." The Holy Spirit in His sevenfold (that is, perfect, complete, and universal) energy. Corresponding to "the seven churches." One in His own essence, manifold in His gracious influences. The seven eyes resting on the stone laid by Jehovah (Rev. 5:6). Four is the number of the creature world (compare the fourfold cherubim); seven the number of God's revelation in the world.

A Commentary: Critical, Experimental, and Practical on the Old and New Testaments.​

seven eyes . . . the seven Spirits . . . sent forth -- So one oldest manuscript, A. But B reads, "being sent forth." As the seven lamps before the throne represent the Spirit of God immanent in the Godhead, so the seven eyes of the Lamb represent the same sevenfold Spirit profluent from the incarnate Redeemer in His world-wide energy. The Greek for "sent forth," apostellomena, or else apestalmenoi, is akin to the term "apostle," reminding us of the Spirit-impelled labors of Christ's apostles and minister throughout the world: if the present tense be read, as seems best, the idea will be that of those labors continually going on unto the end. "Eyes" symbolize His all-watchful and wise providence for His Church, and against her foes.

A Commentary: Critical, Experimental, and Practical on the Old and New Testaments.​

The Spirit is designated by The seven Spirits (τῶν ἑπτὰ πνευμάτων)
Paul nowhere joins the Spirit with the Father and the Son in his opening salutations. The nearest approach is 2 Corinthians 13:13. The reference is not to the seven principal angels (8:2). These could not be properly spoken of as the source of grace and peace; nor be associated with the Father and the Son; nor take precedence of the Son, as is the case here. Besides, angels are never called spirits in this book.

With the expression compare 4:5, the seven lamps of fire, "which are the seven Spirits of God:" 3:1, where Jesus is said to have "the seven Spirits of God."
Thus the seven Spirits belong to the Son as well as to the Father (see John 15:26).
The prototype of John's expression is found in the vision of Zechariah, where the Messiah is prefigured as a stone with seven eyes, "the eyes of the Lord, which run to and fro through the whole earth" (Zechariah 3:9; 4:10).
Compare also the same prophet's vision of the seven-branched candlestick (4:2).
Hence the Holy Spirit is called the Seven Spirits; the perfect, mystical number seven indicating unity through diversity (1 Corinthians 12:4). Not the sevenfold gifts of the Spirit are meant, but the divine Personality who imparts them; the one Spirit under the diverse manifestations.
Richard of St. Victor (cited by Trench, "Seven Churches") says: "And from the seven Spirits, that is, from the sevenfold Spirit, which indeed is simple in nature, sevenfold in grace."

Word Studies in the New Testament.​

God is One but is Father, Son, and Spirit. Now we see writing where there are Seven Spirits before the throne, but they are the Holy Spirit. Are the seven spirits who stand before the throne the Holy Spirit or seven person who are one with the Holy Spirit? It doesn't make a difference to the topic. John wrote to seven churches and addresses the writing to the angel at each church, and John wrote on behalf of the Seven Spirits that stand before the throne. Someone does not write to themselves!! So the seven spirits before the throne that the letter comes from are not the seven angels to whom it was address. Confuse the issue as you might, nobody including the Spirit of God writes letters of reproof to themselves.

Also don't assume that everybody (be them spirits or people) are going to find eternal life in heaven. Jesus is going to tell many, even those casting our demons in His name, healing the sick in His name, and propheciing in His name, "I never knew you!"

It is clear by the messages to each church that there are going to be those in the church that are not saved, "To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God" (Rev 2:7) Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing.

So it was written to each church and to the angel at the church to let him who has an ear, hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

Someone might think reading the Scriptures is the same that as hearing what the Spirit says. Someone might have thought just because their church got the written message from John on behalf of God (Father, Son, and Spirit) that they were saved, but the messages were meant to get them to listen to the Spirit so that they might be saved.

Ps 81:8 Hear, O My people, and I will admonish you; O Isreal, if you would listen to Me!!

Ps 81:11 But My people did not listen to My voice, And Israel did not obey Me.

Ps 81:12 So I gave them over to the stubbornness of their heart, to walk in their own devices

Ps 81:13 Oh that My people would listen to Me, That Israel would walk in My ways!

Ps 81:15 Those who hate the Lord would pretend obedience to Him, And their time of punishment would be forever.


I seek to hear from the voice of the Lord, and He has me studying my Bible and has me go to a Christian church. But there I find people (and not only people) who pretend obedience to Him. They too study their Bible and take up positions in the church. Yet they go after position that they want, where as I take positions that I hear the Lord tell me.

The Lord had me take a class at my church recently. They start the class by going around the room and having everone explain why they were there. This person want that, and that person want this, and when it came to me I simply said that the Lord asked me to come. My answer got lots of laughs and a comment 'Well at least he is obedient to the Lord'.

Being obedient to the Lord means listening for His voice and doing what He askes. The Spirit of God is not the only spirit, even in your church. There are angels that hear from the Lord and serve Him. And there are also religious spirits, which don't listen to the Lord but pretend obedience to Him.

If His people (the church) today don't listen to the Lord, they are just like His people of the past (Israel). Because He went to the cross, because we have forgiveness by a more perfect sacrifice, because we have the Spirit available to us, and because we have the Scriptures, we should certainly be hearing what the Spirits say. So exactly is He telling you, or have you been given over over to the stubbornness of your own heart, to walk in your own devices?

 

[murjahel]

LOL

I vote this as the most ironic statement on the thread.


Seriously K2K, if you want to discuss whether the angels of the seven churches were demons, start a new thread.

peace,
Simon

I 'amen' that...

it is silly, not Scriptural...
and certainly there are 'religious spirits'
in the churches...
the Bible is clear on that...
they are not under orders from God...
He limits their powers...
He lets us cast them out...
He lets us bind them,
and if we have listened to their lies,
He wants us to repent of that failure...
but
He does not employ them to bring us
messages...
LOL

the religious spirits are deceptive
cunning spirits, some of whom
may be trying to get us to think
they have a valid message from God
for us, and we should heed them...

that idea is about as false as any
I have heard this year...​

 

[Watchman4hm]

I seek to hear from the voice of the Lord, and He has me studying my Bible and has me go to a Christian church. But there I find people (and not only people) who pretend obedience to Him. They too study their Bible and take up positions in the church. Yet they go after position that they want, where as I take positions that I hear the Lord tell me.

The Lord had me take a class at my church recently. They start the class by going around the room and having everone explain why they were there. This person want that, and that person want this, and when it came to me I simply said that the Lord asked me to come. My answer got lots of laughs and a comment 'Well at least he is obedient to the Lord'.

Being obedient to the Lord means listening for His voice and doing what He askes. The Spirit of God is not the only spirit, even in your church. There are angels that hear from the Lord and serve Him. And there are also religious spirits, which don't listen to the Lord but pretend obedience to Him.

If His people (the church) today don't listen to the Lord, they are just like His people of the past (Israel). Because He went to the cross, because we have forgiveness by a more perfect sacrifice, because we have the Spirit available to us, and because we have the Scriptures, we should certainly be hearing what the Spirits say. So exactly is He telling you, or have you been given over over to the stubbornness of your own heart, to walk in your own devices?

AND there are religious spirits that give "extra special" understanding that no-one else has too(so they think)...IVE seen it first hand..The end result is puffed up people who think they know it all and if you argue/debate with them then you are disagreeing with "THE WORD OF GOD"(as they interpret it...lol)...Ive seen people who claim extra special visions and even have angels named after them. ALL because they need to feel loved, special, and used of God. They miss that they are already all those things. If the voice you hear creates a CRITICAL Im better off than them attitude your hearing a religious spirit and NOT GOD!!!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

What about the thousands of souls that are being lost due to the fruits of the new apostolic reformation. How does one stand infront of your god and and explain

Says Peter Wagner to God 'yip, several thousand people walked away from the christian faith due to my involvement in the new apostolic reformation, however there were thousands of decisions of people wanting to follow you"

If you open the Bible you will find a place where thousands of the disciples of Jesus walked away from Him when He started teaching things they did not agree with. This happened to such an extent that Jesus asked His inner Twelve whether they were going to leave Him too. Now, if you apply the same judgment you applied to Dr Wagner, you would have to say that Jesus was a fake as well.

I see that your icon is "pagan". Does this mean that you are not Christian?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

For anyone that is really concerned, google new apostolic reformation movement, look at the pro sites and look at the sites opposed and talk to people who have been involved in the movement. If anyone wants info, feel free to message me

I recommend the book "Kingdom Lost" by Mark Vrankovich

And for anyone that would ask why a non christian would care.

1. I hate seeing a group of people make avoidable mistakes

2. I've met and been involved with at least 4-5 families who have permanently left the christian church as a result of their involvement in the New Apostolic reformation. And these arent people who have gone to other churches these are people who have said "If that was god, I want no part of him", they are hurt and wounded people. If I was a christian I would be completely appalled by this.

3. Christians are supposed to have a higher standard and better way of going things than us non christians. I work in mental health, and really object to the fact that at least 25-40% of my client base has been refered to me as a result of their experiences of NAR based churches

While, as a "pagan" and "heathen" you can have a certain amount of mental understanding of some Christian principles, the reality is that the Scripture says that the god of this world has blinded the minds of those who believe not, lest they should fully understand the Gospel of Christ and be saved. A person cannot understand the Gospel and what it is all about unless the Holy Spirit reveals it to him. The fact that you are an unbeliever, you cannot understand the central purpose of why Jesus came to earth, died on the cross, rose from the dead, and how He works through the lives of those who trust in Him.

The Scriptures say that Satan and his demons have enough of an understanding of God and His ways to be terrified about what is going to happen in their future. But they will never be saved, because the Gospel is only for those humans who come to Christ and put their trust in Him. And even then a person cannot come to Christ and be saved unless God initiates things by revealing Christ in the heart of that person.

So, if you remain an unbeliever, there is no way you can have the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the things of God to be able to understand the Gospel enough to be able to be saved.

So, sadly, all you can do is to, according to the Scripture, wait in fear as the day of God's judgment gets closer.